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 Atrial fib and Dr. wants me on coumadin 
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Post Atrial fib and Dr. wants me on coumadin
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I have atrial fib.and my doctor wants to put me on coumadin.I want to resist this approch.I heard fish oil and ginkgo biloba thins the blood just as well.Any suggestions?



The "rat poison" approach does thin the blood, so to speak, and based on their clotting measure (INR) very little else provides the equivalent therapeutic benefit.

I myself would not go on coumadin - 0ther than possibly for a few days after a heart attack. I think that people who can tolerate a large daily dosage of vitamin C do not require as much, and it also isn't as dangerouls (remember, clotting when there should be clotting, e.g., after an artery or vein rupture, will keep you from internal bleeding.)

After reading Dr. LEvy's STOP AMERICA'S #1 KILLER livonbooks.com one learns the reason they give drugs like coumadin to heart patients. It is a little complicated, but the coronary arteries can become thickened to the extent that they develop their own
system of capillaries. Capillaries that would not normally be so close to the heart. These capillaires like veins, are weak and subject to rupture from the high pressure near caused by the heartbeat.

When a capillary ruptures, the same sequence of blood clotting events occur that can cause a blockage and heart attack .

So these drugs are really only necessary in older, advanced plaques, that have developed a system of small capillaries that may rupture. If you decide to take coumadin, that you should read our forum and take 150 MICRO grams of a good vitamin K2 to help avoid the side effect of rapid soft tissue calcification.

In all cases, vitamin C to bowel tolerance (or more as Lypo-C if your tolerance is low) is warranted. This strengthens the blood vessles making the reputure less likely in the first place.

As far as safe substitutes - anything that prevents the blood from clotting is going to present some potential danger.

owen

p.s. as far as the atr. fib, make sure that you are getting at least 300 mg of a good magnesium and 200 mg of CoQ10, along with your vitamin C.

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Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath


Last edited by ofonorow on Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:21 am
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quack
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Post K
Owen,

I read all the research about vitmin K2, rat poison and calcification, and have begun to give it to those poor souls silly enough to come to a quack. I've always thought it dumb that patients are directed by the real doctors to avoid green vegetables because of the vit K content. I've thought it dumb just because, well, it's dumb, or maybe because I can't imagine giving up on the general benefits of greens because of the little bit of "interference" with the rat poison. These aren't very scientific reasons for thinking the doctors' directions are dumb, but that's good enough for me.

The question that remains for me is if the rat poison works by blocking vitamin K activity, then giving K directly conflicts, so how can I give the vitamin K to these poison takers? I'm sure that the K will help prevent the calcification of arteries, but won't it also stop the blood-thinning effects?

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Dolev


Wed Nov 14, 2007 3:43 am
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Post Re: K
Dolev wrote:
Owen,

I read all the research about vitmin K2, rat poison and calcification, and have begun to give it to those poor souls silly enough to come to a quack. I've always thought it dumb that patients are directed by the real doctors to avoid green vegetables because of the vit K content. I've thought it dumb just because, well, it's dumb, or maybe because I can't imagine giving up on the general benefits of greens because of the little bit of "interference" with the rat poison. These aren't very scientific reasons for thinking the doctors' directions are dumb, but that's good enough for me.

The question that remains for me is if the rat poison works by blocking vitamin K activity, then giving K directly conflicts, so how can I give the vitamin K to these poison takers? I'm sure that the K will help prevent the calcification of arteries, but won't it also stop the blood-thinning effects?


Little confusing "have begun to give it to those poor souls silly enough to come to a quack." Give em hell, or are you really giving them coumadin? Or I bet your it refers to vitamin K2!

What I know I learned from a book entitled ENZYMES - The Fountain of Life by 3 authors, one of whom has the last name of Lopez. (I remember this because my son--in-law the oncologist has the same last name.) Okay, I used amazon and here it is

Enzymes: The Fountain of Life

Enzymes: The Fountain of Life by K. Miehlke, R. M. Williams, and D. A. Lopez (Paperback - Aug 1994)

(By the way, thanks Ralph! Ralph Lotz loaned me this book and I never returned it. Excellent book with excellent information.) Anyway, the book happens to use rat poison to illustrate the different ways enzymes and "substrates" can be used, in their view, for "life saving" purposes. Going further will stretch my memory to the limit, but each drug variant (coumadin, wafarin, heparin) seems to act in a different manner to block the activity of vitamin K in the clotting process. They have very nice pictures showing how in one case, the drug mimics vitamin K and "fits" into a receptor, blocking the real vitamin K, but doesn't have the same anticlotting activity as the real vitamin K would in the same receptor. Another drug may work to attach to vitamin K, again, preventing the vitamin from fitting into the receptor. Another drug prevents the uptake of vitamin K, perhaps in the liver, etc.

So depending on how the drug works to deactivate vitamin K enzyme activity might dictate whether taking addition vitamin K can have other beneficial effects (e.g. anti calcification of soft tissue.) I know that Mr. Lotz recommends the 150 MICRO grams of K2 even in conjunction with rat poison.

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Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:59 pm
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quack
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Post Thanks Owen
I have the enzyme book, and I'll go and review it to see if I can improve my understanding. In any case, I don't think that I would give anyone vitamin K who is on warfarin, since one of my life goals that I formulated in high school is to stay out of jail. However, I will give the research, along with my verbal commentary, to those in need and let them decide for themselves.

Dr. Lotz, I hope you weigh in on this subject.

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Dolev


Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:41 pm
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Post I only play a doctor on tv
So that I am not arrested for practicing medicine without a license, here was my post:

Add K2
K2 will prevent your arteries from turning to stone.
It is probably safe to take 45 micrograms daily even if on coumadin, but ask/tell your doc.
http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/forum ... ght=#11486

Dolev, Owen and fellow posters, please help me with these concerns since arterial calcification is a killer.
My initial excitement was driven by the much lower cost of MK-7 along with an apparent much lower dosage.
1) Is MK-4 research being used to promote MK-7?
2) Does this presentation really tell us how much MK-7 is required?
http://vitamink2.org/
3) What conclusions can actually be drawn from this study?
Regression of warfarin-induced medial elastocalcinosis by high intake of vitamin K in rats
http://bloodjournal.hematologylibrary.o ... 109/7/2823
This summary was about as clear to me as the Chicago River on St. Patrick's Day
4) A person on coumadin should be extremely cautious to increase vitamin D without vitamin K since coumadin and D together undoubtedly increase arterial calcification.

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"Unless we put medical freedom into the constitution...medicine will organize into an undercover dictatorship..force people who wish doctors and treatment of their own choice to submit to only what..dictating outfit offers." Dr. Benjamin Rush


Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:59 am
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Post Vitamin K & Warfarin Article from Life Extension Foundat
Quote:
Dosage and Safety
Currently, the recommended daily allowance (RDA) of vitamin K is 70-80 mcg/day for men and 60-65 mcg/day for women.23 Recent studies of vitamins K1 and K2 suggest that the present RDA is too low to fully protect against atherosclerosis and heart disease.17,35 Some experts now suggest that low-dose vitamin K supplementation (50-150 mcg/day) may help stabilize fluctuations in INR in individuals who use warfarin.5 If you use warfarin, discuss the possible benefits of vitamin K supplementation with your physician. Certain medications, including cholestyramine, colestipol, mineral oil, and orlistat may decrease the absorption of vitamin K. Large doses of salicylates such as aspirin may result in vitamin K deficiency. Cephalosporin antibiotics can cause vitamin K deficiency.23

Conclusion
Recent evidence clearly indicates that vitamin K is crucial not only for proper regulation of blood clotting, but also for optimal bone and cardiovascular health. In patients on long-term treatment with the anticoagulant warfarin, vitamin K may also facilitate control of anticoagulation therapy, so that the INR remains in ideal range, without frequent changes in the warfarin dose. The result may be more consistent benefits of therapy—such as decreased risk for heart attack and stroke, and fewer risks—such as hemorrhaging. If you use warfarin, discuss the benefits of modest vitamin K supplementation with your physician.


Entire article at:
http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2007/jun ... ink_02.htm

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"Unless we put medical freedom into the constitution...medicine will organize into an undercover dictatorship..force people who wish doctors and treatment of their own choice to submit to only what..dictating outfit offers." Dr. Benjamin Rush


Sat Nov 17, 2007 12:05 pm
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Post concerns
I think that doctors will continue to give warfarin despite the dangers of calcification even if the scientific evidence penetrates their skulls after breaking through the big pharma wall of intentional ignorance. I think they will keep giving the drug because they will say that the calcification is a long-term threat, while a blood clot is a clear and present danger.

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Dolev


Sat Nov 17, 2007 3:22 pm
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Post Atrial Fib - Consider Taurine and Arginine
Elimination of cardiac arrhythmias using oral taurine with l-arginine with case histories: Hypothesis for nitric oxide stabilization of the sinus node
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_o ... 113cd0d158

Regarding vitamin K2, MK-7, the most recent research supports its use to help stabilize the clotting variations in some coumadin patients. People on coumadin should inform their doctor before trying this at home.
The anti-calcification properties of both MK-4 and MK-7 make vitamin K2 MK-7 another blockbuster in my opinion.
K2 also has anti-cancer properties which I will post in the cancer section later.

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"Unless we put medical freedom into the constitution...medicine will organize into an undercover dictatorship..force people who wish doctors and treatment of their own choice to submit to only what..dictating outfit offers." Dr. Benjamin Rush


Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:12 am
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