FAQ for pauling therapy'?

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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blade

Re: FAQ for pauling therapy'?

Post Number:#16  Post by blade » Sun Jan 25, 2015 1:56 pm

ofonorow wrote:Jonathan Wright and John Lee's books are convincing that prostate growth (cancers) result from an increase in estrogens in males - not testosterone per se.

First, the older men are, the higher the risk for prostate cancer[b]. If testosterone was really the culprit, wouldn't it me more prevalent in young men with high testosterone levels?


Estrogens generally promote growth (e.g. during pregnancy) which can be counter-balanced by progesterone.

There is an enzyme system in men as we age that converts testosterone into Estrogens. Therein lies a problem.

It is the increase in female hormones ( Estrogens) that causing the prostate issues, in this school of thought, and you can take an enzyme inhibitor Arimidex/Anostrosole, to block this conversion of testosterone to estradiols.

Or you can do as I have done for years, rub a little bit of natural progesterone cream near your prostate :D [/b]


you and I are in agreement about the dangers of high estradiol/e2/estrogen in men
I bolded the statement that Abraham Morgentaler, M.D. talks about a lot also.

http://www.harvardprostateknowledge.org ... nt-therapy
and here
http://itr8.com/hosted/b2bcast/schering ... ntaler.pdf
Belly fat is "dangerous"...why is that? it has lots of the hormone you mention, aromatase, that converts testosterone to estrogen.
losing your gut is a great way to increase testosterone

He goes more into depth explaining that the myth that testosterone causes Prostate cancer and how that's just not so.

My dad's urologist won't treat his high estradiol without some evidence high e2 is bad for you
She is willing to look at studies, do you know of any?
Jonathan Wright and John Lee's books, do they have any that he could show her?

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Re: FAQ for pauling therapy'?

Post Number:#17  Post by exitium » Mon Jan 26, 2015 8:33 am

blade wrote: I very much appreciate the long post.
you have answered many of my questions.
I think my dad's blood sugar issue as well as his afib, is because he has really low total Testostrone and T/E ratio(it should be 30+ and his is 7), fasting blood sugar 144
a1c 7
total cholesterol 114

Ive read enough to realize you want testosterone, so getting old is a pain, but he needs to start TRT, and keep his numbers under control


I realize this is the vit C forum and while I think large doses are essential to optimal health I think your really opening a can of worms. In dealing with my own afib, and other issues and having done thousands of hours of research I have come to the conclusion that optimal health requires a full spectrum supplementation plan.

It usually starts by those looking to fix a specific malady, here its usually some form of cardiovascular condition, but what I have found as that while putting blinders on and going after a singular goal more often than not many other important factors are missed.

Testosterone declines with age BUT I am finding today more than ever there is a huge influx of young men, 20-30's, who have clinically low T. In almost all of these people that I have talked to they also have many signs and symptoms of suboptimal thyroid function. There are countless papers on the relationship between thyroid function and sex hormones.

Even if your dads thyroid labs are within range that doesnt mean they are optimal for him. Lugols iodine and selenium added to a complete supplement regiment quite frequently have a very positive effect on metabolism and the bodies sex hormones.

blade

Re: FAQ for pauling therapy'?

Post Number:#18  Post by blade » Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:46 pm

exitium wrote:I realize this is the vit C forum and while I think large doses are essential to optimal health I think your really opening a can of worms. In dealing with my own afib, and other issues and having done thousands of hours of research I have come to the conclusion that optimal health requires a full spectrum supplementation plan.

It usually starts by those looking to fix a specific malady, here its usually some form of cardiovascular condition, but what I have found as that while putting blinders on and going after a singular goal more often than not many other important factors are missed.

Testosterone declines with age BUT I am finding today more than ever there is a huge influx of young men, 20-30's, who have clinically low T. In almost all of these people that I have talked to they also have many signs and symptoms of suboptimal thyroid function. There are countless papers on the relationship between thyroid function and sex hormones.

Even if your dads thyroid labs are within range that doesnt mean they are optimal for him. Lugols iodine and selenium added to a complete supplement regiment quite frequently have a very positive effect on metabolism and the bodies sex hormones.

do you see the relation between an increase in obesity in young people and the increase in low T in young people?
belly fat has that aromatase enzyme, decreasing Test. while increasing E2.

I find your hypothesis that "his normal labs may not be normal"
so you want me to get him(a man who has issues taking pills and already takes quite a few) to take MORE pills, to fix something that cannot be measured?

No one is putting on blinders, I have taken my parents health serious since 08 when my mom had the breast cancer. I put her on a mediterrean diet, low fat somewhat, as fat would cause her arm to swell due to a lymphectomy) and she lost considerable weight, due to me getting her to log what she eats, exercise.
as she lost weight, so did my dad, since she controls what he eats
My dad has lost weight, had afib since 2011-
My parents are eating the most ideal diet they can. so why wouldnt I fix this by putting my dad on TRT?
I will see about getting my dad to eat some foods that contain Selenium/idodine, shrimp, etc
I dont see him taking more pills.

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Re: FAQ for pauling therapy'?

Post Number:#19  Post by exitium » Tue Jan 27, 2015 1:24 pm

blade wrote:
exitium wrote:I realize this is the vit C forum and while I think large doses are essential to optimal health I think your really opening a can of worms. In dealing with my own afib, and other issues and having done thousands of hours of research I have come to the conclusion that optimal health requires a full spectrum supplementation plan.

It usually starts by those looking to fix a specific malady, here its usually some form of cardiovascular condition, but what I have found as that while putting blinders on and going after a singular goal more often than not many other important factors are missed.

Testosterone declines with age BUT I am finding today more than ever there is a huge influx of young men, 20-30's, who have clinically low T. In almost all of these people that I have talked to they also have many signs and symptoms of suboptimal thyroid function. There are countless papers on the relationship between thyroid function and sex hormones.

Even if your dads thyroid labs are within range that doesnt mean they are optimal for him. Lugols iodine and selenium added to a complete supplement regiment quite frequently have a very positive effect on metabolism and the bodies sex hormones.

do you see the relation between an increase in obesity in young people and the increase in low T in young people?
belly fat has that aromatase enzyme, decreasing Test. while increasing E2.

I find your hypothesis that "his normal labs may not be normal"
so you want me to get him(a man who has issues taking pills and already takes quite a few) to take MORE pills, to fix something that cannot be measured?

No one is putting on blinders, I have taken my parents health serious since 08 when my mom had the breast cancer. I put her on a mediterrean diet, low fat somewhat, as fat would cause her arm to swell due to a lymphectomy) and she lost considerable weight, due to me getting her to log what she eats, exercise.
as she lost weight, so did my dad, since she controls what he eats
My dad has lost weight, had afib since 2011-
My parents are eating the most ideal diet they can. so why wouldnt I fix this by putting my dad on TRT?
I will see about getting my dad to eat some foods that contain Selenium/idodine, shrimp, etc
I dont see him taking more pills.


"most ideal diet" falls short, add in exposure to toxins etc that all deplete nutrients and its nearly impossible today to get OPTIMAL level of nutrients from food alone. This is the vit C forum where 6+ grams of vit C daily is recommended. This amount has proven effective yet who on the planet gets that from diet alone? The same applies to many supplements such as iodine. FDA says we need 150mcg yet the japanse consume 12mg.

I dont want you to do anything. You can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink. Ive shared my experience and hypothesis with your to some extent. If you simply cant under stand the "grey area" in nutrition and associated disease nor how a lab range that applies to a population cant accurately be used to determine OPTIMAL levels for an individual, then I am not going to waste any more time. Best of luck to you and your family.

blade

Re: FAQ for pauling therapy'?

Post Number:#20  Post by blade » Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:47 am

exitium wrote:
blade wrote:
"most ideal diet" falls short, add in exposure to toxins etc that all deplete nutrients and its nearly impossible today to get OPTIMAL level of nutrients from food alone. This is the vit C forum where 6+ grams of vit C daily is recommended. This amount has proven effective yet who on the planet gets that from diet alone? The same applies to many supplements such as iodine. FDA says we need 150mcg yet the japanse consume 12mg.

I dont want you to do anything. You can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink. Ive shared my experience and hypothesis with your to some extent. If you simply cant under stand the "grey area" in nutrition and associated disease nor how a lab range that applies to a population cant accurately be used to determine OPTIMAL levels for an individual, then I am not going to waste any more time. Best of luck to you and your family.

harsh tone there,why?
to say "i can't understand""
really? where do you read I don't understand anything?
why get nasty and add drama to an informative threda?

have I said that you get everything from food?
no
I have said I'm going to try to get my dad to take more pills, the man hates taking pills, it's a real issue. when I was a kid he was taking some pill, and we ended up the ER had to had to have a scope showed down his throat cause the pill got stuck

you keep saying how to treat labs by ignoring them and taking more of everything to figure out what is wrong
yet I tell you problems of cost of lab testing, my dad's lack of taking more pills
you dont offer solutions to those problems
I ask you why you dont think HRT is the fix, even with 100% of all vitamins/minerals wouldnt testostrone drop?
wouldnt you still get grey hair?
wouldnt you still age?
yes
LOL,. my motto is, absorb what's useful..I might have found some useful things from you, so thanks.

you might find interesting that the motto, "can't lead a horse to water" is wrong, as someone who is experienced in this matter,i know most of the time, you can't even lead a horse to the water
thanks for the LOLz, eh

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Re: FAQ for pauling therapy'?

Post Number:#21  Post by exitium » Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:09 am

blade wrote:
exitium wrote:
blade wrote:
"most ideal diet" falls short, add in exposure to toxins etc that all deplete nutrients and its nearly impossible today to get OPTIMAL level of nutrients from food alone. This is the vit C forum where 6+ grams of vit C daily is recommended. This amount has proven effective yet who on the planet gets that from diet alone? The same applies to many supplements such as iodine. FDA says we need 150mcg yet the japanse consume 12mg.

I dont want you to do anything. You can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink. Ive shared my experience and hypothesis with your to some extent. If you simply cant under stand the "grey area" in nutrition and associated disease nor how a lab range that applies to a population cant accurately be used to determine OPTIMAL levels for an individual, then I am not going to waste any more time. Best of luck to you and your family.

harsh tone there,why?
to say "i can't understand""
really? where do you read I don't understand anything?
why get nasty and add drama to an informative threda?

have I said that you get everything from food?
no
I have said I'm going to try to get my dad to take more pills, the man hates taking pills, it's a real issue. when I was a kid he was taking some pill, and we ended up the ER had to had to have a scope showed down his throat cause the pill got stuck

you keep saying how to treat labs by ignoring them and taking more of everything to figure out what is wrong
yet I tell you problems of cost of lab testing, my dad's lack of taking more pills
you dont offer solutions to those problems
I ask you why you dont think HRT is the fix, even with 100% of all vitamins/minerals wouldnt testostrone drop?
wouldnt you still get grey hair?
wouldnt you still age?
yes
LOL,. my motto is, absorb what's useful..I might have found some useful things from you, so thanks.

you might find interesting that the motto, "can't lead a horse to water" is wrong, as someone who is experienced in this matter,i know most of the time, you can't even lead a horse to the water
thanks for the LOLz, eh


No harsh tone intended just stating it like it is, I know what I know and I know what has worked for me and thousands like me. Im not here to force you to do anything or make you believe anything, your life, your health, do what you want.

How can HRT be "the fix" when as I said its most likely a symptom of a bigger underlying problem. You dont "fix" things by addressing symptoms you fix things by addressing the underlying problem.

Aging is aging, cant stop that but you can slow it down and have a better quality of life while aging.

As for me not offering anything of value, its a very broad and deep subject, ive offered you a lot of insight, its not a one size fits all. You come here looking for someone to support your theory and when you dont get that support you drone on about this that and the other other thing. No where did I say to ignore labs, what I said was they are not accurate at identifying OPTIMAL function. If they were the doctors offices wouldnt be full of people complaining of various symptoms with "acceptable" labs.

I also never said I was against TRT, put him on it, im sure he will enjoy weekly injections more than taking pills but masking symptoms doesnt solve underlying problems, and as the symptoms get addressed people are less likely to pursue the underlying problem so in some aspects it can be a double edged sword.

Im not here to spoon feed you a solution, it takes patience, time, tons of research (beyond the medical journals) and some trial and error. As an engineer by trade when a problem arises it makes sense, to me anyway, to start at the lowest common denominator. What are the underlying requirements for operation and are those requirements being met? In the case of the human body all life starts with and is maintained by the nutrients essential to the organism. So with that in mind the first step should be to verify that all nutritional needs are met. From where I sit you have not done that and I have found, with myself and many others, simply by addressing nutrition most problems fade greatly or go away altogether if given enough time.

blade

Re: FAQ for pauling therapy'?

Post Number:#22  Post by blade » Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:24 pm

exitium wrote:No harsh tone intended just stating it like it is,

no, your not, you ingore the basic questions I ask and You make assumption
exitium wrote: I know what I know and

LOL that is awesome man..
exitium wrote: I know what has worked for me and thousands like me.

then do share? where are these thousands that are old men with great T/E ratios, without HRT?
exitium wrote:How can HRT be "the fix" when as I said its most likely a symptom of a bigger underlying problem. You dont "fix" things by addressing symptoms you fix things by addressing the underlying problem.

oh ok,lol and that is found by doing that? taking lots of pills? to try to find something that may not exist cause its proven that men age and T falls?
exitium wrote:Aging is aging, cant stop that but you can slow it down and have a better quality of life while aging.

exactly my point
you can't stop aging, he is aging, thats why he has lowT which has caused his other issues.
I didnt read the rest as Im glad you are agreeing, you can't stop aging
extra MG or more vitamins won't stop that
I suggest you read about the vast chemical network within our cells that controls our genes, turning them on and off.
ie epigigenetics
somethings cant be fixed via extra MG or extra seliium

so what do you do then?
you've not proven anyone that has taken more of X and h ad hormones better
so I don't have time/money to follow the ridiculous/unproven idea that his labs are wrong and mega dose everything he takes
I understand your idea, hence why Im taking vit C in grams, but you are teling me to fight aging with mega vitamins and I find that funnny.

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Re: FAQ for pauling therapy'?

Post Number:#23  Post by exitium » Wed Jan 28, 2015 2:13 pm

blade wrote:you've not proven anyone that has taken more of X and h ad hormones better


The only thing you accept as proof is case studies. Ive read thousands but certainly didnt book mark them all. More importantly to me is actual individual accounts. They are out there all over the net. Various folks posting changes in thyroid labs as well as others and how they have improved by various supplement regiments. Even here on this forum people posting lab results and how they have changed. Proof is all around you, you just ignore it and thats fine by me.

blade wrote:so I don't have time/money to follow the ridiculous/unproven idea that his labs are wrong and mega dose everything he takes
I understand your idea, hence why Im taking vit C in grams, but you are teling me to fight aging with mega vitamins and I find that funnny.


lol, but you have all the money in the world to throw at lab tests? And you believe them without a shadow of a doubt regardless of the symptoms that indicate the contrary. And you continually sit here and tell me I stated his labs are wrong so you clearly have difficulties with comprehension because I never said "wrong" simply they dont paint an accurate picture of optimal. The fact that you cant grasp the subtle difference between optimal and non optimal certainly explains why your dont believe supplementing works. Yet, at the same time You just totally contradict yourself because your clearly do believe it works for some things or you wouldnt be megadosing C.

Anyway, I dont have the time to dig up all the data you will likely require as proof of anything so im done arguing with you, good luck.

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Re: FAQ for pauling therapy'?

Post Number:#24  Post by Saw » Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:28 pm

Blade wrote:I have said I'm going to try to get my dad to take more pills, the man hates taking pills, it's a real issue. when I was a kid he was taking some pill, and we ended up the ER had to had to have a scope showed down his throat cause the pill got stuck


Another option is juicing, just stay away from fruit as much as possible
https://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=fat+sick+and+nearly+dead&gws_rd=ssl#q=fat+sick+and+nearly+dead&tbm=vid
Even a Blind Squirrel makes his own vitamin C.

blade

Re: FAQ for pauling therapy'?

Post Number:#25  Post by blade » Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:24 pm

exitium wrote: The fact that you cant grasp the subtle difference between optimal and non optimal certainly explains why your dont believe supplementing works. Yet, at the same time You just totally contradict yourself because your clearly do believe it works for some things or you wouldnt be megadosing C.

Anyway, I dont have the time to dig up all the data you will likely require as proof of anything so im done arguing with you, good luck.

a few big differences:
vit C is proven, (right) to help against CAD
it's cheap
not pills, it's powder
requires no testing
taking too much VC causes....nothing, short half life/water soluablle
you say incorrect facts,and while you've been lots of fun, I can't keep explaining common sense...
you can't dig up what doesnt exist....nice try though,.,,, :lol:

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Re: FAQ for pauling therapy'?

Post Number:#26  Post by exitium » Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:05 am

blade wrote:you can't dig up what doesnt exist....nice try though,.,,, :lol:


It exists, just not in your bible of medical journals, and for the same reason they dont publish all the vit C data. Even if you found it though you wouldnt read it because you have your mind made up and just want to give your dad test which you contradict yourself on because in another thread you said endo wouldnt put him on trt and you agree.

Just put your dad on anastrozole, exemesaten or letrozole to drop his e and call it a day, but I shouldnt have to tell you this im sure you read all about them in your medical journals.

blade

Re: FAQ for pauling therapy'?

Post Number:#27  Post by blade » Fri Jan 30, 2015 5:25 pm

exitium wrote:
blade wrote:you can't dig up what doesnt exist....nice try though,.,,, :lol:


It exists, just not in your bible of medical journals, and for the same reason they dont publish all the vit C data. Even if you found it though you wouldnt read it because you have your mind made up and just want to give your dad test which you contradict yourself on because in another thread you said endo wouldnt put him on trt and you agree.

Just put your dad on anastrozole, exemesaten or letrozole to drop his e and call it a day, but I shouldnt have to tell you this im sure you read all about them in your medical journals.

Just to be clear
Im not denying anything about anything other than the specific case I am dealing with
high Estadiol/low testosterone and your idea he's lacking a nutrient that can turn it all around
lol
if you can find anything that shows a nutritent deficit causes those, and not just aging, I'm going to jump on it
I did say an endo wouldnt put him on TRT, so?
I also said years ago his GP put him on TRT, without testing
if you actually read what I write, you'll see I said I would not put him on TRT until I saw what happens by lowering is E2.'
I'm not sure why you are throwing VC issues at me,m does VC lower e2 or raise Test.? doesnt matter, I got him 3+grams of it daily, for the reasons I told you.

why do you keep saying I've made up my mind? you are constantly trying to add drama to this? It has no use, I just want to fix his e2./lowT.
I've read how to lower e2, low fat, lose bodyfat, limit booze, eat cruciferous vegetables, take DIM,
seriously, if your gonna comment on what I write, at least read it first,
Im done with this thread

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Re: FAQ for pauling therapy'?

Post Number:#28  Post by ofonorow » Sun Feb 01, 2015 9:21 am

Lets play nice - and keep the topics short please, otherwise they are more like spam. For me personally, if a topic I am marginally interested in is longer than 1 or 2 paragraphs, I don't continue reading.

Please try to make your point or ask your question in a paragraph or two.
Owen R. Fonorow
HeartCURE.Info
American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year

blade

Re: FAQ for pauling therapy'?

Post Number:#29  Post by blade » Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:27 am

ofonorow wrote:Lets play nice - and keep the topics short please, otherwise they are more like spam. For me personally, if a topic I am marginally interested in is longer than 1 or 2 paragraphs, I don't continue reading.

Please try to make your point or ask your question in a paragraph or two.


Do I need lysine/prolineto make Pauling therapy work?
From what I under Pauling therapy helps:
-make blood vessels stronger, via more collagen to repair
-helps increase production of nitric oxide which helps risk against CAD/dilatation
-decrease Lpa, which is a reason to lower LDL, as LpA is what is used instead of VitC/collagen to repair arteries
no ldl means no lpa
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/fw12/lipoprotein.html
To date, the hypothesized relationship between vitamin C and Lp(a) has been neither proven nor refuted. It’s also not yet known if lysine itself, rather than serving simply as a precursor for carnitine synthesis, plays an important role in preventing or treating heart disease or angina. And neither the dose-response relationships nor various combinations of micronutrients have been adequately addressed experimentally.

is that accurate?
I thought PT was pretty well proven?
but that suggest you need to be sure to get the lysine/proline AND vit C to get it to work.
is that right?
so If I want to clean out my arteries from any arteriosclerosis, I should do that?
or is PT good just for atherosclerosis?

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Re: FAQ for pauling therapy'?

Post Number:#30  Post by ofonorow » Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:30 am

The Pauling therapy has never been studied !!! :twisted:

That fact is one of the greatest tragedies of our times ( but has also kept most major hospitals from going bankrupt)

So what we think we know is from the reports of those diagnosed with severe cardiovascular disease. Most of these reports are kept by me, but there are hundreds from Tower Laboratories too.

Adding proline seems to make the Lp(a) binding inhibitors work faster and better.

There are two theoretical reasons why proline works.

#1 - the collagen protein is a triple helix and the helix strand contains both lysine and proline. (In fact, when the arterial wall breaks, it is the broken strands of proline and lysine that the Lp(a) molecules adhere to beginning the atherosclerotic process.) So both lysine and proline are building blocks or raw materials of collagen, and vitamin C is required as a catalyst to make collagen.

#2 - After Pauling died, the Univ of Chicago discovered the "proline binding sites" on the Lp(a) molecule, analogous to the Lysine Binding sites that Pauling knew about. This helps to explain why proline is also an effective Lp(a) binding inhibitor, and may also work to prevent the formation of Lp(a) in the liver. All this is in my book Practicing Medicine.

The issue is that while lysine is "essential" - meaning the body doesn't make it and we must get at least 1 gram daily in our diets, proline is "non essential" (poor terminology) because our body makes it. (In fact is it "more essential" because the machinery to build it has not been lost over the course of evolution.) Anyway, I think that one possibility that explains the increased incidence of cardiovascular disease as we age, other than wear and tear on the arteries, is that our cells make less proline as we age.
Owen R. Fonorow
HeartCURE.Info
American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year


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