liposomal lysine (topic transforms into GSH)

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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ofonorow
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liposomal lysine (topic transforms into GSH)

Post Number:#1  Post by ofonorow » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:34 pm

We have discussed this idea (liposomal lysine) a little before, but I would be interested in thoughts about making the entire Linus Pauling therapy liposomal.

Has any one tried making liposomal lysine? We would be interested in the experience.

Does anyone know of any existing liposomal lysine products?

There would be questions of whether the lysine gets into the blood as lysine - good, or still encapsulated - maybe not so good, ( as liposomal encapsulated lysine may not be able to inhibit the binding by neutralizing the lysine binding sites on Lp(a). )

However, it might turn out that by not combining (chelating) with other substances in the gut, liposomal lysine may be very potent.

We cannot afford a study, but if people are willing to participate in an informal study of liposomal lysine, let me know. Perhaps you have not had the desired response to ordinary vitamin C and lysine (few and far between, but there seem to be a few people out there.)

Also, we'd probably want to do an initial study with guinea pigs. To establish that lyposomal lysine does not cause harm, and ideally, to see how fast the atherosclerosis (we know can be induced by restricting vitamin C) can be reversed.

Anyone with access to a laboratory for work like this, or perhaps a child who is a graduate student looking for something to study, let us know.

Thoughts pro and con on liposomal lysine appreciated at this point.
Owen R. Fonorow
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Re: liposomal lysine

Post Number:#2  Post by Johnwen » Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:57 pm

Guess they tried it in china in 2000 Looks like it didn't work to good in Rats.

http://www.wjgnet.com/1007-9327/6/526.pdf
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Re: liposomal lysine

Post Number:#3  Post by Saw » Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:52 pm

I would be interested in thoughts about making the entire Linus Pauling therapy liposomal.


My thoughts are...
It would no longer be "Pauling Therapy"
Lysine is required in the blood to bind to lp(a), not in the cell.
Perhaps this is even true of vitamin c (needed in the blood) to reverse heart disease.
Do you have any stories of lipo c (on its own) reversing heart disease?
Think Dr.Bush and how AA in the blood clears veins/arteries.
Even a Blind Squirrel makes his own vitamin C.

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Re: liposomal lysine

Post Number:#4  Post by ofonorow » Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:00 am

Johnwen wrote:Guess they tried it in china in 2000 Looks like it didn't work to good in Rats.

http://www.wjgnet.com/1007-9327/6/526.pdf


Fascinating. (As Mr. Spock might say)

Both liposome and glyco-poly-L-lysine (G-PLL) are often used as carriers to deliver exogenous genes to the liver in gene therapy experiments.


Meaning there must be literature on this! (And it isn't unsafe at all,
just not the preferred method for "dropping" genes into the liver.)

Alas, Perhaps Saw is correct because this does imply that liposomal lysine tends to 'drop off' its contents in the liver.

However, the primary function of vitamin C in heart disease is its "anti scurvy" property, which means its pro-collagen property. So vitamin C efficacy is related to its ability to produce collagen. This article reinforces the idea that lipsomal C drops its contents in the liver (where our own production would be if it still existed) and then is released as ascorbate into the blood stream.

But asking Dr. Bush to conduct a study of the effect of liposomal C, and even lipsomal lysine is brilliant!!!
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Re: liposomal lysine

Post Number:#5  Post by jpoww » Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:53 pm

I dont understand the benefit of liposomal vitamin c or a liposomal lysine? why not just take vitamin c and lysine as is? whats the benefit of making it liposomal?

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Re: liposomal lysine

Post Number:#6  Post by ofonorow » Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:34 am

Only a fraction of ordinary vitamin C taken by mouth reaches the cells as vitamin C.

Pauling estimated about 50%

Cathcart estimated only about 20%

Liposomal increases these numbers by preventing the degradation of the vitamin in the gut.

There is an argument (based on a lack of knowledge really) whether you can achieve at home what the commercial companies achieve, but there is little doubt that any form of liposomal can increase vitamin C to your cells over ordinary intake..
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Re: liposomal lysine

Post Number:#7  Post by jpoww » Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:08 am

So if I take 22grams of vit c. i'm only getting 11grams to my cells? so what I should double that intake to get more into my cells? I dont like the lipsomal, it taste horrible

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Re: liposomal lysine

Post Number:#8  Post by ofonorow » Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:14 am

If you can double the intake of ordinary vitamin C - without suffering loose stools/diarrhea - DO IT.

Liposomal is most valuable for those with very low tolerances for oral vitamin C.

Livon Labs Lypo-C is now practically tasteless. And if taken properly (dropped in a small glass of water - and swalled all at one time) there should be no taste in any form.
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Re: liposomal lysine

Post Number:#9  Post by jpoww » Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:22 pm

so your saying double my intake to 44grams? I tried Livon Labs Lypo-C and i put it into a glass of water and it doesnt dissolve and I dont like the taste at all. so your saying I need to shoot it in a shot glass? :)

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Re: liposomal lysine

Post Number:#10  Post by ofonorow » Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:13 pm

You mentioned doubling? Take as much as you can prior to bowel tolerance. See: http://www.orthomed.com/titrate.htm

And yes, the proper way to take liposomes (which don't dissolve) is to put them in a shot glass, swirl a few times so they are not sticking to the side - and gulp in one swallow.
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Re: liposomal lysine

Post Number:#11  Post by skyorbit » Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:32 pm

jpoww wrote:So if I take 22grams of vit c. i'm only getting 11grams to my cells? so what I should double that intake to get more into my cells? I dont like the lipsomal, it taste horrible



Wrong, if you take 22 grams of regular order vitamin C, you're only getting between 6-11 grams into your blood-stream. Typically a fraction of what gets into the blood-stream actually gets into the cells and tissues. vitamin C has to lose an electron (i.e.,get used once, get oxidized) in order to penetrate the cell membrane. Then after it gets through, Glutathion has to recharge it to make it vitamin C again (Which saps the body of GSH). It's for this reason that Dr Levy believes his patients experience about 8 times the benefit from Lypo C then from intravenous C for many applications. (He's stated in his clinical experience that 5-6 grams of Lypo C is equal to about 50 grams of IV -- with the caveat that if you actually need the Vitamin C in your blood-stream, then perhaps it's not quite that much better then IV, but most degenerative diseases need the C in the cells and tissues so Lypo C is vastly superior)

Apparently most of the high dose vitamin C that gets into the blood (even through Intravenous injections) gets urinated out.

So of that 22 grams, likely only 1 to 3 grams is actually getting into your cells. 5 to 8 grams of the 6-11 that get absorbed into your blood-stream are either A) doing work in the bloodstream or B) getting urinated out.

LypoSome Encapsulation bypasses BOTH points of bio-availbility. The Gut, and the Cellular uptake after it gets into the blood-stream. AND it gets it directly into the cells w/o depleting your body's glutathion levels. (In fact, it does it by giving your cells Essential phospholipids -- highly important nutrients in and of themselves.)

TRacy

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Re: liposomal lysine

Post Number:#12  Post by ofonorow » Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:54 pm

We learn something new every day. These are interesting statements. What are your sources/references?

vitamin C has to lose an electron (i.e.,get used once, get oxidized) in order to penetrate the cell membrane.


The next statement contradicts Boyd Haley's comment that only high dose vitamin C "recharges or creates GSH inside cells", or does it?

Then after it gets through, Glutathion has to recharge it to make it vitamin C again (Which saps the body of GSH).


I'd like to understand the theory here so we can test it with our new found vitamin C meter :D

Does the vitamin C supposedly travel in the blood as liposomes? (New experiment - put liposomal vitamin C in water and see what the meter reads!)
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Re: liposomal lysine

Post Number:#13  Post by skyorbit » Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:41 am

I said GSH recharges the Vitamin C -- That's not the same thing as saying it's converse.

However, Vitamin C can recharge GSH too.

Read Dr Levy's book on Glutathion. "GSH Ultimate Defender". You can buy it from LivOn Labs for $6.95. Ask them to send you "Living in your right mind" also next time you place an order.

I'm surprised that you haven't read these basic books by Dr Levy being the moderator of the forum.

GSH, VC, ALA can all donate electrons thereby oxidizing themselves and reducing the molecule they're donating the electron too. This is why the three anti-oxidents are so synergistic. High dose vitamin C can also Reduce oxidized Vitamin E at lipid/liquid boundaries thereby oxidizing itself. ALA is primarily intercellular, while GSH is primarily intracellular. Vitamin C works both places. But it can't cross the cell membrane in it's reduced state, so after in crosses said membrane it depends on either GSH or ALA (depending on which direction it's crossing) to recharge it after it crosses. In this way the body can sort of "convert" them to each other depending on needs, as long as you have healthy supplies of at least one, and some of the rest.

See also
Once vitamin C enters the bloodstream, an active transport process is needed for the nutrient to move across any cellular membrane. This process can be just as restrictive as the one that initially limited the nutrient's entrance into the bloodstream. Much of the vitamin C that is not actively transported into the cells will be filtered out by the kidneys and passed in the urine.
http://www.livonlabs.com/cgi-bin/start. ... ility.html

What The "VC Oxidation ->, Cell Membrain penetration --> reduction by GSH Oxidation" cycle is PART of that active transport process. If you don't have good GSH stores, traditional Vitamin C -- Even intravenous VC will remain in it's oxidized form after in gets into the cells. Fortunitely, everybody makes a little GSH (unless they have a genetic defect), and so some of it can get converted and then as the cells become healthier and healthier the cells make more and more GSH, so traditional VC therapies like IV C get more and more powerful the more you do it as the cells get healthier and healthier.

But with the Lypo C, you don't have to wait for GSH stores to gradually build up to get active vitamin C into the cells. The VC is already active once it gets inside the cell membrane. These are theoretical reasons for Dr Levy's experience that 5-6 grams of Lypo is approximately equivalent to 50 grams of IV C. Now, if you're a healthy person in the 1st place, with high levels of GSH to begin with, then it might not be that much better, but it's still definitely better.

Tracy

(PS, for the record, I'm not saying GSH is the only process of reducing VC in the cell. I'm not a Doctor, nor a professional scientist. I would imagine their have to be other methods -- otherwise people with GSH genetic deficiencies wouldn't survive long at all -- but GSH is certainly a primary method that's well documented in the above mentioned book.)
Last edited by skyorbit on Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:31 am, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: liposomal lysine

Post Number:#14  Post by skyorbit » Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:46 am

ofonorow wrote:We learn something new every day. These are interesting statements. What are your sources/references?

I'd like to understand the theory here so we can test it with our new found vitamin C meter :D

Does the vitamin C supposedly travel in the blood as liposomes? (New experiment - put liposomal vitamin C in water and see what the meter reads!)[/color]


That's something I'm very curious about too. A blood test, measuring the amount of VC in the bloodstream, wouldn't give a very accurate measurement of how much vitamin C is actually in the body, because much of the LipoSpheric Vitamin C gets directly into the tissues. What get's into the liver and absorbed is released as the liver breaks up the liposomes -- which is why there's a bit of a delay in hitting the bloodstream compared to traditional vitamin C. But I question that the blood-tests measure all the VC since much of it is absorbed directly into the tissues and never hits the bloodstream as vitamin C because it's encapsulated. I would think the amount of vitamin C actually in the body would be higher even then what the blood tests indicate because much of it "bypasses" the blood-stream because of LipoSome encapsulation.
There was a lecture by Dr Levy on You Tube about this, but the video's since been taken down.

This is on livon Labs Website.
http://www.livonlabs.com/cgi-bin/start. ... ation.html
Although research has not clearly shown how the therapeutic agents in a liposome are actually released, there are a couple of theories. One theory suggests that the phospholipids are processed in the liver as fats and that this process releases the vitamin C. Another theory proposes that cells all over the body, hungry for phospholipid materials to repair cell membranes and other cellular structures, "steal" these materials from the liposome allowing their contents to leak out.


So only the Vitamin C processed by the liver is released into the bloodstream. The liposomes that aren't and get absorbed directly into the cells, wouldn't be detected by a traditional vitamin C blood test I wouldn't think. But I'm not sure how one would go about experimenting with that.

Tracy

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Re: liposomal lysine

Post Number:#15  Post by ofonorow » Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:39 am

I have to digest all of the above. Thanks to the references to Dr. Levy's "other" books. Haven't read them because they didn't have vitamin C in the title :oops:

I think we know that DHAA (reduced vitamin C that) is what passes that through membranes via insulin mediated (GLUT?) transport, but there are also sodium (SVT) transporters - ostensibly these work for sodium ascorbate. (I saw in a paper johnwen recently cited that there was speculation that the glucose meters were reading DHAA.)

But if vitamin C is the only known way to raise intracellular GSH levels (per Dr. Halley) then something is again amiss in River City.
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