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 liposomal lysine (topic transforms into GSH) 
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Post Re: liposomal lysine
I found the quote. Page 74 at the top of the GSH book. Levy writes.
Quote:
"Lyposomal delivery is . . . energy-sparing. . . . "Sililarly, liposomes can directly deliver active, reduced vitamin C directly into the cells. Most commonly, vitamin C must be in its oxidized (spent) form to penetrate the cell membrane. Cellular electron stores must then be tapped to convert the oxidized vitamin C back to its active form." (His parenthesis, and bold/italics.)
Earlier in the book he talks about GSH being the primary infra-cellular anti-oxidant that does this. This is the also the chapter on how to maximize your GSH levels, towards the end where he's talking about liposomes. He also mentions earlier in the same paragraph, how Intravenous GSH doesn't really get into your cells. It breaks down in the blood-stream and the precursors are what's absorbed into the cells and the cells have to reconstitute it. So if the cells aren't healthy in the first place, Intravenous GSH is going to be of limited value. Where-as Liposomal GSH can pass through the cell membrane intact and when the PC is broken down, it's just already there and active. Cells need to be healthy enough to put precursors back together in order for IV GSH to work. Fortunately, even diseased cells are able to do this a little bit even if it's not optimum, which is why people still see benefits from IV GSH.

Now, he does say mostly, so I'll admit it's not the only way to get vitamin C into the cells. But it is the primary way. So w/o LypoSomal delivery, it's important to maximize the cells manufacture of GSH so it can recharge the Vitamin C once it enters the cell, since most of the vitamin C (excepting Sodium transport, and Liposome encapsulation) will be oxidized when it gets inside the cell.

Quote:
But if vitamin C is the only known way to raise intracellular GSH levels (per Dr. Halley) then something is again amiss in River City.


Now this statement doesn't make any sense to me at all. All Vitamin C can do is reduce oxidized GSH (thereby oxidizing itself). Obviously there are mechanisms by which the body manufactures it in the first place from raw materials. If there's things you can do to make these mechanisms more efficient, or get more raw materials to the manufacturer, it would make sense that the cells could start making more. Earlier in the same above-mentioned chapter Levy lists a bunch of nutrients that either facilitate the construction of precursors, and precursors themselves, as well as other anti-oxidents besides vitamin C that can reduce GSH (Of course when they do this, they get oxidized themselves.)

L-Carnatine, and Acytle-L-Carnatine. Is one of the main amino acids that helps facilitate the manufacture of GSH -- especially in combination with a-Lipoic Acid. Also Selenium.

Precursors you can take so the body has the raw materials include NAC, Glutamine, and Whey protein.

Other anti-oxidents besides VC include a-Lipoic Acid, SOD (and it's derivatives), Vitamin E, etc.

So there are obviously numerous ways to maximize GSH levels.

a) Make the cells healthier in the first place so it's easier for the cells to make it.

b) Take precursors so your cells have more raw materials to work with.

c) Take other anti-oxidents so that they can donate electrons to reduce pre-existing oxidized GSH. Vitamin C is but one of these, but it's by far the most powerful.

Levy has documentation in his book of all the above mentioned supplements increasing intra-cellular GSH levels. I'm not familiar with Dr Halley, but I'd posit you're either misunderstanding him, or he's wrong.

My only point is that Lypo-Spheric vitamin C, gets active vitamin C into the cells, w/o depleting GSH levels. Which is what, for most applications, Lypo-C is superior to IV C. Now, if you actually need the Vitamin C in the bloodstream, VC would be better. But most problems people have aren't acute infections or toxins in the blood-stream. Most of the problems we have from aging are cause by various focal scurvies which means you need the VC in your cells and tissues.

(By the same token, if you actually NEED the Vitamin C in your gut take regular oral vitamin C to bowel tolerance or beyond. Levy says that rotting food in the GI tracts is one of the main sources of toxicity to the body, 2nd only to dental toxicity.

If I caught some kind of stomach bug, I'd probably be trying to get all three delivery systems. :)

Tracy


Last edited by skyorbit on Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:05 pm
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Post Re: liposomal lysine
I think this is an important discussion.

Boyd Haley is retired Emeritus Professor of Chemistry at the University of Kentucky. He did some analysis for Hal Huggins, was surprised with the findings, and became a strong anti amalgam scientist, which set him against the mainstream. This is "biased" as wiki can be but is a pretty good background.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyd_Haley

I heard him speak and I keyed on his comment that the only "proven" way to raise intracellular glutathione was "high dose vitamin C." He had just come out with a product (I think called OCR) which he claimed raised intra-cellular GSH. He was in the process of running tests to prove this (and become the other way.) (The OCR product has since been removed from the market after FDA pressure. I will look at some of these youtube videos of OCR, as he may make that statement again, and I will try to find his email and ask him directly.

So again, something in our understanding is amiss if Haley is right. (And there may be other ways to raise intracellular GSH - just not experimentally proven.)

As far as IV GSH - it works wonders, and I have my own theory that it can grab on to toxins in the blood (like intra cellular GSH grab onto toxins inside cells).

Also there is a paper by Cathcart (and he mentions how GSH/C recycle themselves in his video lectures.

VITAMIN C:
THE NONTOXIC, NONRATE-LIMITED, ANTIOXIDANT FREE RADICAL SCAVENGER

http://www.orthomed.com/nonrate.htm

Quote:
EXAMPLE OF A RATE-LIMITED, ANTIOXIDANT FREE RADICAL SCAVENGING PATHWAY

In general free radical scavenging occurs through complex metabolic pathways involving many steps which are rate-limited. Deficiencies of nutrients, vitamins and minerals, which make up the enzymes and coenzymes of these systems can slow down or halt certain pathways.

It is apposite to describe one of these rate-limited, free radical scavenging mechanisms, to give the impression of its complexity and why it is rate-limited. The example chosen involves the glutathione pathway which is possibly one of the most important pathways.

When, for example, a superoxide radical must be destroyed, superoxide dismutase can catalyze its conversion to O2 and H2O2 (11). Ascorbate, nonenzamatically, also converts superoxide to H202 but is oxidized in the process to the ascorbate free radical and dehydroascorbate. The ascorbate free radical and the dehydroascorbate are reduced back to ascorbate either by NADH (catalyzed by semidehydroascorbate reductase and forming NAD) or reduced glutathione (GSH) (catalyzed by dehydroascorbate reductase and forming oxidized glutathione (GSSG)) (12). Some of the peroxide can be converted to oxygen and water by catalase but most will be destroyed by a glutathione-requiring enzyme system. GSH (catalyzed by glutathione peroxidase) reduces the peroxide to water but in the process is oxidized to GSSG. The resulting GSSG is reduced by NAD(P)H (catalyzed by glutathione reductase). The resulting NAD is reduced back to NADH by way of the Krebs cycle or resulting NADP is reduced back to NADPH by the hexose monophosphate (HMP) pathway. It is thought that commonly the rate-limiting step in the last series of reactions is that catalyzed by glutathione peroxidase and its cofactor selenium, but other substances which could limit all this are the vitamin E, vitamin C, vitamin B2, vitamin B3, cysteine, etc. Note: the ascorbate used in this example is as in the vitamin C sense; the small amount available is oxidized to dehydroascorbate and then must be reduced back to ascorbate by the pathway described, to be reused as ascorbate. One can easily see how this mechanism and similar mechanisms could be overwhelmed by a toxic pathogen liberating free radicals or by an inflammatory cascade regardless of its cause.


Quote:
Clinically, ascorbate in the very large doses described is very effective and safe as part of the treatment of a wide variety of conditions, especially infectious diseases. It is my hypothesis that this clinical effectiveness when a critical threshold is reached, as indicated by bowel intolerance to ascorbic acid in the form of diarrhea, occurs both because massive doses of ascorbate can act as a nonrate-limited, antioxidant free radical scavenger and because acute induced scurvy is avoided. When high enough tissue levels are reached in tissues directly affected by the disease processes, the redox potential of the AA/DHA system in those tissues is kept reducing; substances such as oxidized glutathione are directly reduced; and stray free radicals are rapidly quenched.

This effect of ascorbate is rate-limited only by the lack of courage of those administering ascorbate or the tolerance of the patient taking it. I hope to increase that courage by pointing out the observed lack of toxicity clinically and the theoretical reasons for that lack of toxicity.


Not simple, but maybe that is the point

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Sat Dec 22, 2012 12:18 pm
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Post Re: liposomal lysine (topic transforms into GSH)
Looking for support from Haley for his statement that the only "proven" way to increase intracellular GSH is high dose vitamin C. Found these excellent videos:

1st is a gold mine. My opinion. Watch this and become an expert on GSH (and mercury detox).

Boyd Haley, PHD, discussses glutathione and oxidative stress.(2009) 1 hours 5 min
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0y6YdENDe18
Quote:
Oxidative Stress = low levels of reduced glutathione in red blood cells

Quote:
GSH:

+ is the most potent natural heavy (mercury) metal chelator made in the mammalian body.

+ Water soluble. Mercury gets caught in lipids and GSH can't normally reach it.

+ Inactivates viruses by binding to them (inhibits expression of a viral protein)

+ GSH in plasma is rapidly depleted by the liver to rid body of toxins.

+ Way to beat viruses is to increase GSH inside cells. (Tylenol depletes intracellular GSH, yet Tylenol is recommend for colds/flu!)

Minute 24 - supplement with Alpha Lipoic Acid - ALA restores red blood cell GSH levels! (Claims ALA
is metabolized by the body - so this effect quickly wains)

+l-isomer NAC only raises GSH, not d-isomer. (Provides building blocks in cells for their making GSH)

+Ethyl mercury is entirely fat soluble, and usually winds up in fats, e.g., brain tissue. Most antioxidants are water soluble.


Note - the above is an hour+ long lecture. After about 15 minutes, it prematurely started over for me.

If Professor Haley is correct, that GSH is what inactivates viruses, than this may explain why high dose vitamin C is effective against viral infections! ==> high dose vitamin C increases GSH levels in cells!
(And together (GSH inactivates viruses, and vitamin C's ability to fight viral infections) provides indirect evidence for the statement that vitamin C raises intracellular GSH.)

Here is the basic lecture by Haley in 3 minutes!

Boyd Haley discusses mercury induced oxidative stress and glutathione
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpKum7J0kso


Next, this is a fascinating 10 minute interview with Boyd Haley on "heavy metal Chelation" (Note the first couple of sentences!)

Boyd Haley, Ph.D. The Story of OSR - Oxidative Stress Relief
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXLjvqSOz88

I want some OSR!

Boyd Haley Testing Blood Glutathione Levels for Mercury Toxicity
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrA5WANZVHU

Added. About minute 40 of next video by Jaffe discusses how Ascorbate raises GSH! (You cannot
take oral GSH to get GSH in cells)

Dr. Russell Jaffe discusses Vitamin C and heavy metal detoxification IAOMT 2009
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ibz0IHGNCCU
Quote:
Vindicates Alton Meister - chairman of chemistry at Columbia? or Tufts? - who claimed ascorbate is the best way to raise GSH in cells.


That led me to this Meister paper
Glutathione Metabolism and Its Selective Modification
http://www.jbc.org/content/263/33/17205.full.pdf
However, this paper seems to be aimed at how to REDUCE intra-cellular GSH to support cancer therapies.


This one may be better
Glutathione-Ascorbic Acid Antioxidant System in Animals
http://www.jbc.org/content/269/13/9397.full.pdf+html

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Sat Dec 22, 2012 3:07 pm
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Post Re: liposomal lysine (topic transforms into GSH)
Well, in his book about GSH, Dr Levy has references to studies that show that all of the above nutrients I mentioned raise GSH levels.

I guess I don't know what Haley means by "prove" and I haven't read the studies Levy cites personally.

But it seems obvious just from pure logic.

Assumption: The body makes it's own GSH.
Assumption: All Vitamin C can do is recharge oxidized GSH, by oxidizing itself.

Therefore, something else makes GSH so it can be their in the first place in order for the C to be able to reduce it after it's spent.

What that "something else is" is probably debatable, but if you could figure out how to nutritionally support those mechanisms that manufacture GSH, you're body would be able to make plenty and wouldn't need high dose vitamin C to recharge it. So the claim that "Vitamin C is the only way to increase intracellular GSH levels" seems logically flawed -- even if there's reason to dispute the conclusions of the research Levy cites. Certainly it's worthwhile to debate the best ways to nutritionally support said mechanisms, but to say it's not possible to support those mechanisms seems downright irrational.

When a person says high dose VC is the only way to increase GSH levels, that's essentially what they're saying. They're saying the body can only make so much GSH, there's nothing you can do to get more, so you have to really on Anti-Oxidants to reduce and recycle what little bit of GSH the body makes. They're also saying that it's not possible for anti-oxidents other then VC to do this recharging. Aside from the fact that both a-Lipoic Acid, and Vitamin E have been documented to recharge GSH in multiple studies (a Lipoic Acid significantly), from a purely logical standpoint, this strikes me as extremely implausible.

Maybe he's using an extremely narrow, medical definition of "proof."

Thanks for the video's. They're extremely educational.

Tracy

PS. Pick up "GSH: The Ultimate Defender" it's only about 85 pages. Easy reading. And really should be required reading for any ortho-molecular enthusiast.


Sat Dec 22, 2012 5:48 pm
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Post Re: liposomal lysine (topic transforms into GSH)
I will read that GSH book. I personally learned a great deal yesterday.

For instance, glutathione (GSH) is a small, water soluble molecule, and like ascorbate, is highly concentrated in cells. This tells me that generally, the issue isn't building GSH, the building blocks are readily available. And once oxidized, GSH can even cause cell death!

We have no argument that a measure of health is the level of reduced GSH inside cells. Haley calls the opposite situation "oxidative stress." And there is a $33 blood test to measure it.

What I also gather is the both GSH and ascorbate can reduce/recyle each other, but think about it. You can take enormous amounts of ascorbate - and it will enter cells (We have to figure out this business of become oxidized to enter.). GSH cannot enter cells. It is built by the cell within the cell. Ergo there is only so much GSH reserves can do before it is all oxidized. On the other hand, there is a limitless supply of ascorbate from the outside (if the person takes enough) and as Jaffe explains - it is worth listening to his entire lecture! - ascorbate sacrifices itself first in the face of certain dangerous radicals, before GSH and vitamin E donates their electrons.

Back to the idea that only high dose vitamin C "raises" GSH levels. That doesn't have to mean ascorbate creates GSHt, it simply means that on that blood test that measures reduced GSH, taking vitamin C raises those levels. There can be indirect reasons. C recycles oxidized GSH back into the reduced form, or cells have less toxins for GSH to grab and leave the cell, etc. I have a query to Haley (through my dentist) but after reading the Alton Meister papers - a giant in GSH - I would bet that Halley is basing his statement on Meister's work.

Jaffe cited work that NAC (the right form) can raise GSH levels on these blood tests, but the numbers are less than if ascorbate is given. I think he cited an experiment with a girl. She was given both NAC and C separately. So maybe I heard Haley say "only" and either I heard wrong, or Haley meant "best". (This conference was video taped and was supposed to be available on DVD long ago!! Big Sigh.. But we'll see what Dr. Haley says.)

And it may still be that at the very root of this, that even if you provide the cell with its building blocks to make GSH - without ascorbate or a reducing agent - it cannot be made. (There are other antioxidants, and again, Haley has designed an intriguing fat soluble antioxidant.. but that is another story.)

The take home message is that a primary function of GSH is as a chelator. The problem with chelating mercury (and I heard this for the first time yesterday) is that Ethyl Mercury is fat soluble, and settles in a "lipid biolayer" in the cell that (water soluble) GSH cannot get to (so it cannot attach to the mercury). It was in this discussion Haley mentions Alpha Lipoic Acid, but claimed that although this substance is both fat and water soluble - it is quickly metabolized, again favoring the action of his invention - fat soluble antioxidant OSR.

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Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:49 am
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Post Re: liposomal lysine
ofonorow wrote:
As far as IV GSH - it works wonders, and I have my own theory that it can grab on to toxins in the blood (like intra cellular GSH grab onto toxins inside cells).


This is more bad information from Owen. Do not use IV glutathione pushes to raise your glutathione beyond normal physiological levels.

If he can't document with scientific evidence what he's saying (like he can and does with some but not all of his vitamin C information), you're likely better off to run (not walk) the other way.

Regarding Haley's OSR product, much has been written about this by Andy Cutler, a much better source of information than Owen in my humble opionion.

All the above is just my two cents, but you must protect yourself and the health of your loved ones. (Send me a private message to receive references why to avoid IV GSH.)

Merry Christmas and Happy Chanukah to all our readers here.

Sincerely,

VanCanada

'


Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:56 am
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Post Re: liposomal lysine (topic transforms into GSH)
Who said anything about IV GSH? Ahh my comment. (IV/C, by the way, works clinical wonders, e.g. in patients w/Parkinsons, for largely unexplained reasons. We know, as Haley points out that GSH in the blood doesn't enter cells and is rapidly passed to the liver which deposits it (and what ever it is attached to) the feces. V.C., please speak with any physician experienced in IV/GSH before you make such questionable assertions. Now if you have arguments why IV/GSH is so bad, then make them please, rather than such a silly dogmatic statement.)

I was going to start the Andy Cutler conversation somewhere else, but I have become interested in Cutler. I could only find this on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjmrJdgvtQU

Are there any of with him discussing aspects of his chelation protoco? For example, I am now interested in whether and how much vitamin C he recommends in his protocol. (For if he doesn't, then it is entirely possible his entire protocol is flawed (and unnecessarily complex) because he doesn't recommend/use ascorbate.

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Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:14 am
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Post Re: liposomal lysine (topic transforms into GSH)
Owen, if you aren't going to tell us where you received your supposed Ph.D. and supposed N.D. degrees then please remove that entirely misleading moniker "Orthomolecular Naturopath" from your signature. I've requested this a long time ago of you. It's not too late for you to become more transparent and accountable to the readership here, and this would be one small step in that direction IMHO.

Regarding Andrew Hall Cutler and his vitamin C recommendations, I did a very long post (maybe an entire thread even) about that and now it's gone.

I didn't remove it or delete it or touch it. What happened to it?

Do you have backups of this forum from 2010 or 2011? If not, why not?

Why are so many postings from different board members disappearing all the time??


Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:10 am
Ascorbate Wizard
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Post Re: liposomal lysine (topic transforms into GSH)
So what did Cutler say? Does he routinely recommend vitamin C or not?

You and everyone knows who I am. I am an open book. My bio is available and I use my real name, etc. (What exactly you don't know about me?)

Speaking of "transparency", who are you? We don't know who you are. What is your name, where do you live? What are your qualifications to make the dogmatic assertions you always post? What have you authored and what patients have you treated? (I won't hold my breath waiting for you to stop hiding behind your anonymity ).

We can discuss the legal meaning and definition of the word "Naturopath" if you like, but it is legally different from Naturopathic Doctor (ND) which I do not use.

The forum posts are routinely pruned because as I have mentioned, it got so big the database could not be restored. Posts that are looked at are preserved. If someone wants to retain a particular post, they can ask me to archive it - no pruning there. By the way, this pruning is automatic, not manual.

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Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:54 am
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Post Re: liposomal lysine (topic transforms into GSH)
ofonorow wrote:
[color=#000080]It is built by the cell within the cell. Ergo there is only so much GSH reserves can do before it is all oxidized.

So you don't believe it's possible for individual cells to synthesis more of it if they're healthy cells vs dysfunctional cells? You don't believe it's possible for individual cells to make more of it if they had more of the building blocks? What's you're theoretical reasoning for believing this?

Quote:
Jaffe cited work that NAC (the right form) can raise GSH levels on these blood tests, but the numbers are less than if ascorbate is given. I think he cited an experiment with a girl. She was given both NAC and C separately. So maybe I heard Haley say "only" and either I heard wrong, or Haley meant "best". (This conference was video taped and was supposed to be available on DVD long ago!! Big Sigh.. But we'll see what Dr. Haley says.)


Best could quite possibly be correct. My probably was with the term only. (PS: NAC is very definitely a building block of GSH so if you accept that NAC can increase GSH levels you're agreeing that it's possible for cells to make more of it if they have more building blocks.)

Quote:
(We have to figure out this business of become oxidized to enter.)
Well, and like I said. Dr Levy does say "mostly" that's the mechanism used. So there's likely other ways for it to get in. Just that the Oxidation entry reduction path is the most likely. (There's a case where I said "only" above and realized I was wrong when I looked it up.)
Quote:
The problem with chelating mercury (and I heard this for the first time yesterday) is that Ethyl Mercury is fat soluble, and settles in a "lipid biolayer" in the cell that (water soluble) GSH cannot get to (so it cannot attach to the mercury). It was in this discussion Haley mentions Alpha Lipoic Acid, but claimed that although this substance is both fat and water soluble - it is quickly metabolized, again favoring the action of his invention - fat soluble antioxidant OSR.


So Perhaps High Dose Vitamin E (The full Complex) should be given along with VC, GSH ALA for these fat soluble toxins?

(Of course, getting rid of body fat in general helps with this as well. :) )

Tracy


Last edited by skyorbit on Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:58 pm
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Post Re: liposomal lysine (topic transforms into GSH)
ofonorow wrote:
Who said anything about IV GSH? Ahh my comment. (IV/C, by the way, works clinical wonders, e.g. in patients w/Parkinsons, for largely unexplained reasons. We know, as Haley points out that GSH in the blood doesn't enter cells and is rapidly passed to the liver which deposits it (and what ever it is attached to) the feces. V.C., please speak with any physician experienced in IV/GSH before you make such questionable assertions. Now if you have arguments why IV/GSH is so bad, then make them please, rather than such a silly dogmatic statement.)

I was going to start the Andy Cutler conversation somewhere else, but I have become interested in Cutler. I could only find this on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjmrJdgvtQU

Are there any of with him discussing aspects of his chelation protoco? For example, I am now interested in whether and how much vitamin C he recommends in his protocol. (For if he doesn't, then it is entirely possible his entire protocol is flawed (and unnecessarily complex) because he doesn't recommend/use ascorbate.


I've talked to numerous people who have used IV GSH for Parkinsons and MS, and had significant improvement. It doesn't really make sense to me either since GSH is largely an intracellular molecule and we KNOW GSH can't get inside the cells. It's components have to get into the cell and rebuild. But I've talked to too many people who tell me they've had good results with it. But the cost of IV GSH is extremely expensive compaired to Lypo GSH, so then they start taking the LivOn product. Many of them have every similar results with high doses of the Lypo GSH. My guess is the reason they have better results with the LyPo GSH is again, because they can enter the cells directly and it doesn't have to break up into its constituent amino acids and then get rebuilt once those precursors enter the cells.

All I can imagine is that the IV GSH must to something in it's 2 minute half-life before it degrades. Plus once it degrades all those precursers are circulating the blood and I'm sure much of them get into the cells to get rebuilt.

Tracy

PS. Van. Get over yourself. We're all amateurs and desk-top theory weavers here. I don't believe Owen claims to be any more then that. TS


Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:12 pm
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Post Re: liposomal lysine (topic transforms into GSH)
Quote:
I've talked to numerous people who have used IV GSH for Parkinsons and MS, and had significant improvement. It doesn't really make sense to me either since GSH is largely an intracellular molecule and we KNOW GSH can't get inside the cells. It's components have to get into the cell and rebuild. But I've talked to too many people who tell me they've had good results with it. But the cost of IV GSH is extremely expensive compaired to Lypo GSH, so then they start taking the LivOn product. Many of them have every similar results with high doses of the Lypo GSH. My guess is the reason they have better results with the LyPo GSH is again, because they can enter the cells directly and it doesn't have to break up into its constituent amino acids and then get rebuilt once those precursors enter the cells.

All I can imagine is that the IV GSH must to something in it's 2 minute half-life before it degrades. Plus once it degrades all those precursers are circulating the blood and I'm sure much of them get into the cells to get rebuilt.


Yes, but what-if it is not about getting into cells?

I have seen with my own eyes, as have other docs who give IV/GSH (such as eDOC) and they have reported important effects. If as, Boyd Haley cautions, all IV/GSH does is rapidly reach the liver and break down, then maybe it is an effect from something happening in the blood serum and/or outside of cells?

One thing we can debate, but it known by Haley (and other chemists and biochemists) outside of medicine, Glutothione is a strong "chelator". (I just promised someone I would not use that term any more (More confusion than anything) , but that is the term Emeritus professor of Chemistry Boyd Haley uses for GSH). It just may be that GSH's role in the blood stream is to grab and expel toxins, during that 2 minutes.

And this makes some sense. GSH 'expelled" from a cell, already is attached to a virus or toxin.

GSH is created in cells, so free GSH would rarely be found in the blood.

The only way to get free GSH in the blood may be via an IV.

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Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:57 am
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Post Re: liposomal lysine (topic transforms into GSH)
ofonorow wrote:
Quote:
I've talked to numerous people who have used IV GSH for Parkinsons and MS, and had significant improvement. It doesn't really make sense to me either since GSH is largely an intracellular molecule and we KNOW GSH can't get inside the cells. It's components have to get into the cell and rebuild. But I've talked to too many people who tell me they've had good results with it. But the cost of IV GSH is extremely expensive compaired to Lypo GSH, so then they start taking the LivOn product. Many of them have every similar results with high doses of the Lypo GSH. My guess is the reason they have better results with the LyPo GSH is again, because they can enter the cells directly and it doesn't have to break up into its constituent amino acids and then get rebuilt once those precursors enter the cells.

All I can imagine is that the IV GSH must to something in it's 2 minute half-life before it degrades. Plus once it degrades all those precursers are circulating the blood and I'm sure much of them get into the cells to get rebuilt.


Yes, but what-if it is not about getting into cells?


I'm in complete agreement with you. apparently it doesn't need to to do some good.

Tracy


Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:49 pm
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Post Re: liposomal lysine (topic transforms into GSH)
>>> ofonorow: So what did Cutler say? Does he routinely recommend vitamin C or not?

VanCanada: If I can dig up my previous post I will repost it for you. In the meantime please read Cutler's 1999 book "Amalgam Illness". I have suggested for many years that you read it. Why have you not read it yet?

Vitamin C is on Culter's list of recommended supplements for people diagnosed with amalgam illness.



>>> ofonorow: You and everyone knows who I am.

VanCanada: This is not true. I have heard two of your radio interviews and have read your website. That is all.


>>> ofonorow: I am an open book.

VanCanada: Certainly not if you can't answer the two questions 'What degrees do you hold' and 'Which institutions are they from'?

I am not so much interested in your academic training as I am interested in your credibility. If you can't even provide evidence of the degrees you are putting after your name then why are we even visiting your websites for reliable information?



>>> ofonorow: What exactly you don't know about me?

VanCanada: 'What degrees do you hold' and 'Which institutions are they from'?


>>> ofonorow: Speaking of "transparency", who are you? We don't know who you are. What is your name, where do you live? What are your qualifications to make the dogmatic assertions you always post? What have you authored and what patients have you treated? (I won't hold my breath waiting for you to stop hiding behind your anonymity ).

VanCanada: Is this information required of all members of this discussion board? If not then what is the point of asking this from me alone? Shouldn't a moderator act in an unbiased manner?

I provide readers here details of my health and the things I do to try to impove my health. I don't want that information to be used against me. That's why I choose to use a pseudonym. It is not against the rules of this discussion board, is it Owen?



>>> ofonorow:We can discuss the legal meaning and definition of the word "Naturopath" if you like, but it is legally different from Naturopathic Doctor (ND) which I do not use.

VanCanada: I would expect this kind of hair-splitting from a sleazy politician or used car salesman, not from a health care information provider.


>>> ofonorow: The forum posts are routinely pruned because as I have mentioned, it got so big the database could not be restored. Posts that are looked at are preserved. If someone wants to retain a particular post, they can ask me to archive it - no pruning there. By the way, this pruning is automatic, not manual.

VanCanada: I don't buy your explanation. You're going to have to come up with a better explanation than that. This manner of running a discussion board is just too convenient for a disinformation specialist and too incredible for a Ph.D. in computer science. Something just doesn't compute here.

The world is watching.


Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:53 pm
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