Vitamin E for blood thinning?

[kohlrabicroce]

At the last doctor visit, we learned that doctors will try to
thin the blood to 2-3 times thinner than that of a normal
person. This just doesn't seem like a good idea to me, and
indeed he has had some issues with bruises not healing up.

I've been asking around about getting off of warfarin
when one's arteries are now completely clear, and
have been told that "Abruptly discontinuing warfarin
may induce a rebound prothrombotic state." I've also been
told that doctors will probably want him to stay on warfarin
just because, since he's had a stroke.

So then I did a search on warfarin dangers, and found this
article about the faulty methods that were used to determine
this 2-3 times blood thinning practice:

Why Is Warfarin Such a Dangerous Drug?

http://www.jwatch.org/oh200806100000001/2008/06/10/why-warfarin-such-dangerous-drug

which talks about how the method they used to determine this
is not scientifically sound.

It is based on this study:

Bleeding in patients receiving vitamin K antagonists who would have been excluded from trials on which the indication for anticoagulation was based

http://bloodjournal.hematologylibrary.org/content/111/9/4471?ijkey=da98ec6b596c78a9f676112bde049%20b31adecc804&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

And then I read this piece on doctoryourself.com:

http://doctoryourself.com/drugalt.html

In which a guy named Bob gets off of warfarin without telling his doctor what he was doing,
by increasing his vitamin E gradually, and gradually getting his warfarin dose reduced.
I think he made the right decision there, but: Since they thin the blood to 2-3 times
normal, and since I don't believe even large doses of vitamin E would cause such
an un-natural result, it seems that it would be impossible to get off it completely,
going purely by doctors orders and PT/INR test results.

I will be researching it: I'm going to get the original book on vitamin E by the
shutes, "heart and Vitamin E." Oh, and the chapter on vitamin E in "Orthomolecular
Medicine For Everyone."

But I'm not sure how to go about this, since vitamin E probabley will not
thin the blood quite that much, and the doctors will want to keep his blood
un-naturally thin.

[studentroland]

[kohlrabicroce]

Hi studentroland,

Good point, I need whatever help I can get in dealing with the doctors.
Yesterday I found another one in town that practices orthomolecular medicine,
and called to ask about insurance. Guess what - this guy does not take any
insurance at all. Guess he has plenty of rich patients then!

I saw that Andrew Saul mentioned that book "Supernitrition" has more info
about how to gradually increase one's supplements and then get the doc
to gradually decrease the meds, without telling him or her, so I'm getting that.

Thanks for the advice, I will now refer to them as you suggested.

[studentroland]

[kohlrabicroce]

Sorry, I saw it on this page:

http://www.doctoryourself.com/vitamin_e.html

SOME GUIDELINES

Persons with high blood pressure need to increase their daily amount of vitamin E gradually, say the Shutes. This is because the vitamin increases the strength of the heartbeat, and a gradual increase of E avoids any sudden rise in blood pressure. The Shutes found that over a period of months, a gradually increasing dose can yield a lower blood pressure.

The Shutes said that persons with a chronic rheumatic heart do not tolerate much vitamin E and need medical supervision if they are to use it.

Persons taking drugs such as Coumadin (warfarin) commonly find that their tests indicate a decreased need for "blood-thinning" drugs. The intelligent way to deal with this is to work with your doctor, who is responsible for your prescription.

A person in good health may wish to begin with a supplemental amount of 200 I.U. of vitamin E per day and try it for a couple of weeks. Then, 400 IU might be taken daily for another two weeks. For the next two weeks, 600 I.U. daily, and for the next two weeks, 800 I.U. per day and so on. One ultimately takes the least amount that gives the best results. This approach is essentially that of Richard A. Passwater and is provided in more detail in his book Supernutrition (1975, Pocket Books).

(The problem is, that one would have to takes one's anticoagulation to an even higher level, to get it reduced by the doc).

So this would be the book I am getting:

http://www.amazon.com/The-New-Super-Nut ... im_sbs_b_1

But the one you posted looks interesting too.

Ps: yes that would be chapter 5 in "Orthomolecular Medicine for Everyone."
That "devil's priest" book looks interesting.

[studentroland]

O.K. Now I see...thanx...

The problem is, that one would have to takes one's anticoagulation to an even higher level, to get it reduced by the doc)

To an even higher level than what?

[kohlrabicroce]

To an even higher level than the reference range for a normal,
non-anticoagulated person.

For example, on his last pt/INR test, the reference range was 0.8 - 1.2.
The suggested INR therapeutic range for vitamin k antagonist therapy
(which is what he's getting) is: 2.0 to 3.0.

So the doctors will want his blood to take longer (2-3 times longer)
to coagulate than a normal healthy person's would.

I don't think this is a good idea.

[studentroland]

[kohlrabicroce]

[studentroland]

and I believe a simple NO would have been too threatening for them

Clever girl!

[ofonorow]

Interesting discussion. My brother on coumadin routinely has his INR measured. He tried to see if vitamin E at very high dosages would have an effect, but it didn't.

I wonder what exactly is "blood thining."?

At the last doctor visit, we learned that doctors will try to
thin the blood to 2-3 times thinner than that of a normal
person. This just doesn't seem like a good idea to me, and
indeed he has had some issues with bruises not healing up.

I've been asking around about getting off of warfarin
when one's arteries are now completely clear, and
have been told that "Abruptly discontinuing warfarin
may induce a rebound prothrombotic state." I've also been
told that doctors will probably want him to stay on warfarin
just because, since he's had a stroke.

Per another discussion on unstable plqaues, these "blood thinners" (really anti-coagulation agents or vitamin K blockers) are necessary to keep capillary ruptures from starting a clotting sequence that will interfere with blood flow to the heart. But no "blood thinning" is going on to my knowledge.

[studentroland]

My brother on coumadin routinely has his INR measured. He tried to see if vitamin E at very high dosages would have an effect, but it didn't.

So for how long was he trying vit.E?