Introduction and some technical questions on Pauling Therapy

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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Ken45140
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Introduction and some technical questions on Pauling Therapy

Post Number:#1  Post by Ken45140 » Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:35 am

Hello: First post with some questions. I have been impressed with the technical knowledge and degree of sharing on this forum and hope to learn more.

As background, I am a 70 yr old male with a long history of CAD. Angiplasties starting in 1980 (shortly after their introduction into the US) up thru 2005 with DE stents placed a bifurcated junction of anterior descending and first major diagonal. I have had (and been cured of ) atrial fibrillation (off topic for this forum but happy to discuss headlines or details with anyone interested), Currently dealing with PVCs (not severe -- 3.5% occurrence from Holter monitor) but main complaint is continuing and potentially refractory angina since June. Cardio has been trying things like atenolol, lisinopril, amdolopine, and recently added Ranexa to the mix. Also sent me to EECP, which I saw was discussed on the forum in 2010. I have more detail to share if anyone interested. I completely 7 one-hour sessions before needing to drop out due to extensive bruising (due in most part to fish oil, aspirin, clopidrigel doses trying to slow down the angina bouts. With bruising healing and fish oil stopped, I am scheduled to resume next week. I also charted a distinct decrease in the frequency of the episodes even after just 7 sessions. Was also on and continue today the VitC/lysine/proline doses recommended here (but not as high) as well as higher dose arginine and citruline.

I have read and studied many posts here and the web sites devoted to Pauling Protocols and therapy. Doesn't make me an expert but I at least have read most literature (and absorbed much but not all of what I have read - hopefully). I have the following technical questions that I hope some here can respond to

1. The theory has, as one of its logic steps, that plaque occurs in the heart and no where else as evidence of the moving heart, its blood vessels. and resulting cracking/damage. Does this also explain the presence of plaque in legs in PAD? or is this plaque different in some way?
2. The "methodology" or repair that is described does not seem to apply (at least in the same way) to conditions of unstable plaque (present with unstable angina). While I read that up to 64% of unstable plaques are composed of Lp(a), there are countless studies showing the makeup of unstable plaques to be composed of all sorts of unpleasant components (some call the soft center a "gruel"). Does the proposed mechanism of healing of the Pauling protocol apply to unstable plaques?
3. This is probably a basic, already discussed topic, but does the repair process (say with a stable plaque) cause larger particles to "break off" (thus posing a blockage problem) or does the "healing" process occur on a molecular level? (and how would anyone know?)

Thanks for taking some time to respond to my questions. I am hoping that the combination of things I am doing will result in a cessation of the angina episodes I experience. Meanwhile, my nitro spray bottle is always with me. I even take it prophylactically ahead of exercise. Also, if I can "give back" to the forum from my experiences and research I would be pleased to do that.

Ken

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Re: Introduction and some technical questions on Pauling The

Post Number:#2  Post by studentroland » Fri Oct 25, 2013 4:18 pm

1. The theory has, as one of its logic steps, that plaque occurs in the heart and no where else as evidence of the moving heart, its blood vessels. and resulting cracking/damage. Does this also explain the presence of plaque in legs in PAD? or is this plaque different in some way?

Hi, Ken...good question...I don´t know the answer, but I have a belief that they somhow differ in origin, since the plaques near the heart logically come about as a result of not enough vit.C in combination with the extra strain put on bloodvessels there, while plaques elsewhere in the bloodvessels logically can come about both according to the same logic, as a result of not enough vit.C, but also as a result of not enough vit.E, which seems to make the blood more prone to "clotting" by it´s very absense...
http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=11069
Having read a little more on the origins of plaque in the blood-vessels, there´s also this line of reasoning that a lack of the vitamins B6, B12 and folic acid, due to perhaps lifestyle-choices? raises homocysteine-levels in the blood, which in turn causes plaques to form in the blood-vessels... it can be read about here, where Dr. Kilmer McCully explains his reasonings...:
http://www.chiro.org/nutrition/FULL/Kilmer_McCully_MD.shtml

2. .... Does the proposed mechanism of healing of the Pauling protocol apply to unstable plaques?

As I understand it, yes it does...lack of ascorbic acid is what causes the body´s internal repair-mechanisms to spring into action, with inflammation, foamcells and fibrous caps as the best result, and continous longterm supplementation with ascorbic acid is what eventually will make this repairmechanisms emergency-activity no longer necessary...

This is probably a basic, already discussed topic, but does the repair process (say with a stable plaque) cause larger particles to "break off" (thus posing a blockage problem) or does the "healing" process occur on a molecular level? (and how would anyone know?)

Again, I don´t know, but my belief is that the healing-process takes place on a molecular level simply because ascorbic acid, or ascorbate, comes in the form of molecules... :idea: as I see it, it´s not any more complicated than this...larger particles probably only "brakes off" when they eventually becomes too big for their attachments to hold them...with more and more ascorbate in the blood-stream the plaques will be taken care of much in the same way as a dermal scar would heal...slowly, but surely molecule by molecule 24/7 around the clock...

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Re: Introduction and some technical questions on Pauling The

Post Number:#3  Post by ofonorow » Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:18 am

Good questions. Curious about your history, how much vitamin C have you taken regularly and for how long?

Ken45140 wrote:
I have read and studied many posts here and the web sites devoted to Pauling Protocols and therapy. Doesn't make me an expert but I at least have read most literature (and absorbed much but not all of what I have read - hopefully). I have the following technical questions that I hope some here can respond to

1. The theory has, as one of its logic steps, that plaque occurs in the heart and no where else as evidence of the moving heart, its blood vessels. and resulting cracking/damage. Does this also explain the presence of plaque in legs in PAD? or is this plaque different in some way?

You mean "near" the heart because plaques don't occur "in" the heart. This point is raised in the great Thomas Levy book STOP AMERICA'S #1 KILLER. Dr. Levy is a former board certified cardiologist and his book should answer many of your questions. The coronary arteries OUTSIDE the heart occlude - but not the coronary arteries WITHIN the heart itself. Now why would that be???

According to the Canadian doctor (George Willis) who first published noticing that the plaques form near or close to the heart, he blamed mechanical stresses, such as the blood pressures at bifurcating arteries, caused by the heart beat.

There does seem to be differences in PAD, which I don't fully understand. Magnesium is often recommended for PAD, and if I had PAD, I would want to make sure my CAD was taken care of first.


2. The "methodology" or repair that is described does not seem to apply (at least in the same way) to conditions of unstable plaque (present with unstable angina). While I read that up to 64% of unstable plaques are composed of Lp(a), there are countless studies showing the makeup of unstable plaques to be composed of all sorts of unpleasant components (some call the soft center a "gruel"). Does the proposed mechanism of healing of the Pauling protocol apply to unstable plaques?

I am not a trained cardiologist, but the Levy book previously cited (STOP) made me appreciate the grave problem of unstable plaques. In fact, I came away from that read with the opinion that people in this situation would probably be better off with a Coronary Bypass Graph surgery. From memory, the problem is that these plaques are like callouses or tumors because they grow and develop their own capillary system. The problem is that capillaries are weak (unlike arteries) and because these unstable plaques are near the heart subject, the pressures are high and they are subject to rupture, with all the cascading clotting events associated. A ticking time bomb - heart attack.

Now the basic therapy, vitamin C and lysine (and proline) are required to make collagen and thus are required to keep blood vessels strong and supple. Our bodies cannot make either vitamin C or lysine and even if one has unstable plaques, it makes a great deal of sense to maximize these two nutrients.



3. This is probably a basic, already discussed topic, but does the repair process (say with a stable plaque) cause larger particles to "break off" (thus posing a blockage problem) or does the "healing" process occur on a molecular level? (and how would anyone know?)

We used to worry about this too - until a relative on the table for heart surgery died - because a piece of plaque broke away during surgery causing a stroke on the operating table. Moral - there is no completely safe way to resolve heart disease...

But, such a thing has never been reported to us in all these years. Dr. Rath believes it is a molecular process - molecule by molecule, and we have tons of reports of blood cholesterol INCREASING after beginning the therapy.
Owen R. Fonorow
HeartCURE.Info
American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year

Ken45140
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Re: Introduction and some technical questions on Pauling The

Post Number:#4  Post by Ken45140 » Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:53 am

[quote="ofonorow"]Good questions. Curious about your history, how much vitamin C have you taken regularly and for how long?

I have been taking an average of 6 to 10 gms VitC with Lysine/Proline being about half of that for many weeks or more now. In addition, I alternate with higher dose Arginine and Citrulline (maybe 6 to 10 gms arginine with about half of that for Cit). (Several times, a simultanous intake of 2gms arginine along with 2 gms vitC produced some lower blood pressure and an "uneasy feeling", as both are vasodialators -- hence my staggering the dose intakes.) This raises the interesting question about how "synergistic" are all of the different theories on supplements to help with heart disease vs how much "in conflict" they are. Meaning, I take "everything" from supplements to Rx. Mag, Potassium (actually stopped this recently with addition of Ranexa as per advice on their handout), fish oil, aspirin, clopidrigel (it was the combination of the FO, clopidrigel, aspirin -- maybe others that led to my extensive bruising as a result of seven sessions of EECP). All of the bruising has healed and I stopped the fish oil, reduced aspirin, stopped vitE, and will resume my EECP tomorrow morning. I also take the B complex, folic acid, multivit for the small ones, CoQ10, Grapeseed (for antioxident), even vit K2 (recently added). Also, atenolol lisinopril and amlodipine, Again, how much of this mix is "synergistic" or do many of them "cancel" each other??

Right now, my hope is on the EECP stimulating collateral circulation as well as toning up the endothelial cells and helping produce more NO (nitric oxide). The arginine and citrulline also help with NO production, so it seems I have all factors trying to work in my favor. If all of this fails to stem the (now reduced) angina episodes, I have learned to rely on my handy squirt or two of nitro spray. It always abates an angina episode and I even take it prophylactically ahead of exercise or strenuous tasks. (Moderately hard weight workout yesterday withOUT nitro spray did NOT result in an angina episode, a hopeful sign.)

Thanks for the comments to my questions. The unstable plaque thing is a touchy one as one can not be sure one has such unstable plaques nor how "fragile" they may be. I have read that the tops can be strengthened but I realize I will have to revisit that article/research. Plus, my cardio is not convinced I have unstable plaques but borderline blockages -- hence his order for the EECP.

Thanks,

Ken


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