Vitamin K? (And Vitamin A?)

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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Re: Vitamin K? (And Vitamin A?)

Post Number:#31  Post by ofonorow » Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:44 am

And Weston-price has a similar argument visa vis Vitamin A - this triad, D, A and K needs to be taken together. I think what is new in Death By Calcium, or at least generally unrecognized before the new Levy book, is how important vitamin C is for bone health. Dr. Levy had found evidence that osteoporosis is a form of "bone scurvy" that I first remember reading about in Primal Pancea.

A case in point. I have mentioned this before - when I was going through my "intensive care" episodes, during which I started blaming on a bio weapon!?!? :twisted: before I figured out that it was simply a cortisol deficiency - I had my tonsils out and dental cavitations treated (removed) as well as my wisdom teeth ( which may have had abcesses).

The dentist, a Hal Huggins disciple, a woman, could NOT remove my wisdom teeth. And not from a lack of trying. Apparently with all the vitamin C (and D, K and A) that I take - my bones are strong. he he :P
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Re: Vitamin K? (And Vitamin A?)

Post Number:#32  Post by skyorbit » Mon Apr 07, 2014 10:31 am

I just purchased 2 bottles of Koncentrated K from http://www.k-vitamins.com/.

I hope the potency is at least what's on the label. I don't know anything about this company.

Dr Levy said 15mg 3 times a day of MK-4. these are 25mg each, so, I figure if I do have to keep it in my system, I can take three a day and get that much more. There's pretty much NO toxicity to vitamin K from what Dr Levy said.

And the astaxanthin will be good for my eyes.

Tracy

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Re: Vitamin K? (And Vitamin A?)

Post Number:#33  Post by exitium » Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:13 am

ofonorow wrote:(I am still wondering about their reported puny vitamin A recommendation !?! Maybe that was a misprint in another post. How why would the world's strongest proponent of vitamin A recommend 1/10 of the RDA? Can anyone find the reference?)


Are you saying weston price is recommending 1/10th of the rda?

From what I have seen WP is recommending 9500 IU vitamin A and 1950 IU vitamin D (http://www.westonaprice.org/cod-liver-o ... cs#clarify)

the RDA for Vit A is 625mcg RAE (http://www.iom.edu/Activities/Nutrition ... %201-4.pdf)

When dealing with REA things get a little muddy depending on type of vit A being consumed.

1 IU retinol = 0.3 mcg RAE
1 IU beta-carotene from dietary supplements = 0.15 mcg RAE
1 IU beta-carotene from food = 0.05 mcg RAE
1 IU alpha-carotene or beta-cryptoxanthin = 0.025 mcg RAE

If we make the assumption the fermented cod liver oil WP recommends falls into the "beta-carotene from dietary supplements" category and they recommend 9000IU we could multiply 9000*.15 and and it would be 1350mcg RAE which is double what the FDA recommends. If its in the form of retinol then we have 9000*.3 which is 4x rda.

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Re: Vitamin K? (And Vitamin A?)

Post Number:#34  Post by ofonorow » Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:36 am

Thanks for your post. I was reacting to another post which seemed to have Weston Price's recommendation for vitamin A around 1100 iu.

I am glad you cleared that up. 9000 to 10000 is more reasonable.

Another thing. There used to be an article about vitamin D on Weston Price - it may have been part of the original Miracle of Vitamin D article - which described how they discovered vitamin D's strong anti-infection property. A wing of a hospital was being given vitamin for some study, when the flu hit the hospital. No one in the wing given vitamin D caught the flu. Trying to find that reference/article.
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Re: Vitamin K? (And Vitamin A?)

Post Number:#35  Post by skyorbit » Sun May 11, 2014 11:01 pm

Owen. How much Vitamin A and Vitamin D do you take?

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Re: Vitamin K? (And Vitamin A?)

Post Number:#36  Post by ofonorow » Mon May 12, 2014 9:33 am

Vitamin D3 - 2000 iu in summer, 5000 iu in winter in pill form - but I get at least 20 minutes of UV/B light every day, either lamp or sun.

Vitamin A
10,000 pill
? Cod Liver Oil
5000 iu Ascorbade So probably 10 to 20K
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Re: Vitamin K? (And Vitamin A?)

Post Number:#37  Post by Serdna » Fri Jul 04, 2014 11:44 am

ofonorow wrote:There used to be an article about vitamin D on Weston Price - it may have been part of the original Miracle of Vitamin D article - which described how they discovered vitamin D's strong anti-infection property. A wing of a hospital was being given vitamin for some study, when the flu hit the hospital. No one in the wing given vitamin D caught the flu. Trying to find that reference/article.

I don't know about Weston A. Price Foundation but the story is from Dr. Cannell: Epidemic Influenza And Vitamin D. A as matter of fact Dr. Cannell is highly critical of vitamin A supplementation.

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Re: Vitamin K? (And Vitamin A?)

Post Number:#38  Post by ofonorow » Sun Jul 06, 2014 1:05 pm

Thank you for finding that article/link. I respect Dr. Cannell and generally agree with him about vitamin D, but I do not understand his position against vitamin A, esp. since vitamin A is part of the overall bone package. Vitamin A help remove old bone, as vitamins D, C, K help create new bone. Weton-Price points out that it is important to balance vitamin D and vitamin A intake.

Here is a Weston-Price article on vitamins A and D (and challenging Cannell).
http://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/update-on-vitamins-a-and-d/


Lifeguards in the tropics can reach blood levels in the 50s and 60s naturally from sun exposure, suggesting these levels are “natural,” although lifeguards in Israel have twenty times the rate of kidney stones as the general population.

Kidney stones may be the most sensitive indicator of vitamin D toxicity and are a symptom of vitamin A and K2 deficiency. Thus, I suspect these levels are healthful in the context of a diet rich in vitamins A and K2, and if my levels were to reach this high in the summer sun while I was eating such a diet, I certainly would not worry.

But if you are trying desperately to maintain year-round 25(OH)D status between 50-80 ng/ mL using vitamin D supplements, you have entered the land of speculation. Enter at your own risk.
Owen R. Fonorow
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Re: Vitamin K? (And Vitamin A?)

Post Number:#39  Post by Serdna » Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:20 am

ofonorow wrote:Thank you for finding that article/link.
You're welcome!

ofonorow wrote:
I respect Dr. Cannell and generally agree with him about vitamin D, but I do not understand his position against vitamin A, esp. since vitamin A is part of the overall bone package.
You may concur or not but his position is well thought. Excerpting from this newsletter:
Dr. Cannell wrote:The idea that the human genome evolved eating liver is absurd. By the time humans could hunt large mammals, the genome had already evolved. Humans evolved eating a diet not dissimilar to the Great Apes: vegetables, fruit, roots, and some bugs.
Well, I don't agree. I favor Dr. Cunane's aquatic ape hypothesis and it seems mussels have quite a dose of vitamin A.
Dr. Cannell wrote:I admired everyone I met at the Weston A. Price Foundation when I spoke there several years ago, mainly because of their commitment to healthy soil. However, when I brought up toxicity of cod liver oil, the atmosphere quickly turned from science to religion.
I agree completely on this one though. Chris Masterjohn specifically is not balanced when talking about suppositions if they come from Weston A. Price (count the references he included about Price's hypothesis of coconut oil as sunscreen). Take a look to the double standards when addressing others suppositions like those from Dr. Heaney.

He is not the worst though. The bias is even clearer with other Weston A. Price members. Take a look at Katherine Czapp's promotion of gluten for celiacs (via Dr. Harris, a visit to archive.org seems required now though) just because Weston A. Price found some population was healthy eating wheat.

ofonorow wrote:
Vitamin A help remove old bone, as vitamins D, C, K help create new bone. Weton-Price points out that it is important to balance vitamin D and vitamin A intake.

Here is a Weston-Price article on vitamins A and D (and challenging Cannell).
http://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/update-on-vitamins-a-and-d/


Lifeguards in the tropics can reach blood levels in the 50s and 60s naturally from sun exposure, suggesting these levels are “natural,” although lifeguards in Israel have twenty times the rate of kidney stones as the general population.

Kidney stones may be the most sensitive indicator of vitamin D toxicity and are a symptom of vitamin A and K2 deficiency. Thus, I suspect these levels are healthful in the context of a diet rich in vitamins A and K2, and if my levels were to reach this high in the summer sun while I was eating such a diet, I certainly would not worry.

But if you are trying desperately to maintain year-round 25(OH)D status between 50-80 ng/ mL using vitamin D supplements, you have entered the land of speculation. Enter at your own risk.
So ironic! Just the same could be said about gulping down cod liver oil!

Personally I eat beef liver quarterly, supplement 5000IU of vitamin D3 the day I don't sunbath, supplement 2mg of vitamin K2-MK4 daily and actively try to dodge any vitamin A (preformed retinol or not) in my other pills.

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Re: Vitamin K? (And Vitamin A?)

Post Number:#40  Post by ofonorow » Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:26 am

Linus Pauling recommended 25,000 iu of Vitamin A daily. (Which I have tried to follow since about 1986 - and my bones are rock hard.)

Here is an interesting perspective that shows NO DEATHS from vitamin A in the medical literature.
http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/journal/mega2.1.html

In the third world, high dose vitamin A (100,000 iu to 500,000 iu) via injection saves lives. It protects children from death by infection and blindness for about a year. As far as I know, no other vitamin is used like this by WHO.

Added - and as far as Dr. Cannell's reasoning, the arguments are rather weak (no experiments, merely conjecture. For example, yes, increase vitamin A (without vitamin E and K2) would probably lead to a higher incidence of fractures. These vitamins work together, and vitamin A's role is to help remove old bone. (Just removing old bone without creating new bone would weaken bones). His arguments about infections are questionable. Certainly vitamin D plays a large role, but we have the 3rd world evidence that these very large vitamin A injections prevent infections in the children, who would otherwise perish.
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Re: Vitamin K? (And Vitamin A?)

Post Number:#41  Post by skyorbit » Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:08 pm

So, just a question.

How much vitamin E should one take, if they're taking 100 IU of vitamin A? What should that ratio be?

Tracy

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Re: Vitamin K? (And Vitamin A?)

Post Number:#42  Post by Serdna » Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:26 am

We all have our biases. Mine is being an idealist. I don't buy that evolution did such a bad job that we may consider all of us ill because our livers don't make ascorbic acid. That does not prevent us to use gram doses of it when we see fit though. I even take 3g/day myself.

In the vitamin A matter I don't think we evolved gorging on cod liver oil or eating liver daily but we certainly evolved getting a lot of sun and eating somewhat lower dose preformed vitamin A sources.

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Re: Vitamin K? (And Vitamin A?)

Post Number:#43  Post by tjohnson_nb » Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:19 am

Serdna wrote:We all have our biases. Mine is being an idealist. I don't buy that evolution did such a bad job that we may consider all of us ill because our livers don't make ascorbic acid. That does not prevent us to use gram doses of it when we see fit though. I even take 3g/day myself.

In the vitamin A matter I don't think we evolved gorging on cod liver oil or eating liver daily but we certainly evolved getting a lot of sun and eating somewhat lower dose preformed vitamin A sources.


There are many ways for life to survive, with or without AA synthesis, for example. This does not mean we can't improve things - in a sense its contributing to our evolution.
'Always' and 'never' are 2 words you should always remember never to use.

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Re: Vitamin K? (And Vitamin A?)

Post Number:#44  Post by skyorbit » Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:30 pm

skyorbit wrote:So, just a question.

How much vitamin E should one take, if they're taking 100 IU of vitamin A? What should that ratio be?

Tracy


I'm going to re ask this.

Tracy

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Re: Vitamin K? (And Vitamin A?)

Post Number:#45  Post by ofonorow » Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:00 am

First of all - 100 IU of vitamin A? Pauling recommended 25,000 IU - so did you mean A or something else? I do not see how vitamin E is related in any way to vitamin A intake? (Certainly, Vitamin D, probably K and interrelated to Vitamin A intake.)

My take on why the liver "hoards" vitamin A, but not other vitamins, is because vitamin A is so vital to life, and we cannot live long without it. During periods where there is no vitamin A in the diet - the liver slowly releases its store of vitamin A. Say when a bear is hibernating.
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