Vitamin K? (And Vitamin A?)

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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Vitamin K? (And Vitamin A?)

Post Number:#1  Post by exitium » Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:04 pm

Since there seems to be a delicate relationship between Vit A, D and K, what kind of doses are people seeing used/recommended for these? Ive been a long time D user but have overlooked A and K. I have some of each on the way.

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Re: Vitamin K? (and Vitamin A)

Post Number:#2  Post by ofonorow » Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:04 pm

Levy's new book DEATH BY CALCIUM covers dosages of vitamin K and D, and while it mentions A, he seems cautious about it. (the lack of coverage of vitamin A is probably the one nitpick I would have with the otherwise wonderful book. But vitamin A is my hot button.)

The recommendation for vitamin K covers a wide range, and since the LEF Super K product (what my wife and I take) covers a high range, I recommend 1 Super-K daily. (LEF.ORG). Seems to cover all bases. If memory serves, Levy recommends another vitamin K product too.

Did I say, Vitamin A is my" hot button."

Linus Pauling recommended 25,000 iu of Vitamin A daily (and I thought this recommendation was probably based on his friendship with Roger J Williams.) It is known that most people can take around 100,000 iu of vitamin A for an extended period without ill effect, but if you do have a problem with that dosage most people eliminate any overdose problems by reducing the dosage. (that is, other than one poster at this forum years ago who claims that he was unable to shake the effects of a Vitamin A "overdose." We have to take his word.)


Thank you Don Davis, Roger J Williams associate, as your fine paper reveals that there has only been one death due to a vitamin A overdose in the literature - and that was due to drinking gallons of carrot juice (an estimated 3 million IU - and not even vitamin A - beta carotene). So don't drink gallons of carrot juice. http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/journal/mega2.1.html

Here is a copy of an email I sent to a correspondent about vitamin A


There has been a ton of adverse publicity regarding vitamin A over the years, and it is based on very weak (if any) evidence. Why? Well, a major property of vitamin A is to promote cell differentiation (pigs minus vitamin A in their feed were born dead, or with all sorts of birth defects. - Roger J. Williams Nutrition Against Disease. Put the vitamin A in feed - same mother pigs - normal pigs were born.)


Cancer cells are rapidly dividing undifferentiated cells. Like cells in a growing fetus. Once they began "differentiating into muscle, bone, etc, they lose their ability to rapidly divide. This makes vitamin A a potent weapon against highly aggressive cancers, and yes, you can find a few studies that substantiate this - works better than chemo for many soft cancers. This poses an economic threat to the only class of chemo drugs that actually work, thus in my opinion, placing a Big Pharma target on the back of Vitamin A.

Weston Price is currently the beacon for vitamin A, whether they know about the anti cancer properties or not.

Everyone else seems to have been influenced by the negative publicity. And miss the important role of vitamin A, such as fighting infection and for promoting bone reconstruction. Vitamins A, D, K (and Levy has found good evidence for vitamin C) are all involved in bone maintenance. If one of these vitamins is missing, the bones won't be strong. Vitamin As role seems to be to clear out old tissue, so K and D (and C) can build new bone.. The ability of vitamin A to remove some matter from bone cells has been twisted into "vitamin A causes bone fractures" (And it probably does, if only vitamin A, but not C, K and D are taken).



And then after a response, I emailed




Can't resist - it is true the liver stores vitamin A.


This fact is used to scare people that it is not like "good" water soluble vitamins that are expelled.

Do you know why vitamin A is stored in the liver?

Reason: it is so important and vital that we cannot live long without it! (Blindness/infection - see children in 3rd world) So we have evolved to solve the problem of temporary deficiency - say during the winter months - by storing it in the liver. It can slowly be released into the blood stream during the times we aren't getting vitamin A in the diet. Pretty amazing how this has been turned around by Big Pharma propaganda.

I learned much from the authoritative book by Sommers: Vitamin A Deficiency.

It has also been discovered (and largely hidden) that if you aren't getting vitamin A - you cannot metabolize protein. Again, kids in the 3rd world (India this time) - gave them protein - nothing happened until WHO swept in to provide the 500,000 vitamin A shots - then the kids began utilizing protein.

Note 100000 to 500000 iu injections of vitamin A SAVES LIVES IN THE 3RD WORLD.

Another thing about fat soluble antioxidants - they can protect lipid parts of the cell that cannot be reached by vitamin C and glutathione.




The coup de grâce is that the Linus Pauling Institute actually buckled and put an asterisk of Pauling's 25,000 IU vitamin A recommendation in the latest edition they published!
Owen R. Fonorow
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American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year

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Re: Vitamin K?

Post Number:#3  Post by exitium » Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:20 pm

Thanks for the response Owen. It just so happens I have some LEF vitamin K on the way and was curious how much people are taking.

Ive got Levy's book "Stop americas #1 killer" and in it he says 3-9mg vitamin K daily. Seems like a lot since most K supplements are in mcg realm.

I also noticed he has a somewhat low recommendation for D3 at 400-1000IU daily and no mention of A at all but says E at 400-1000IU daily as well.

Myself I have been taking 5000-1000 D3 daily for quite some time now and dont seem to have any of the sides people often complain about with it when they actually do have sides. A and K are the 2 that I really havent been using but have both on the way to add to my regiment.

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Re: Vitamin K? (And Vitamin A?)

Post Number:#4  Post by skyorbit » Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:21 pm

How much Vitamin K2 does Levy recommend?

TRacy

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Re: Vitamin K? (And Vitamin A?)

Post Number:#5  Post by exitium » Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:31 pm

skyorbit wrote:How much Vitamin K2 does Levy recommend?

TRacy


Menatetrenone (k2) 3-9mg Daily in the version of the book I have.

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Re: Vitamin K? (And Vitamin A?)

Post Number:#6  Post by skyorbit » Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:26 am

3-9 milligrams? Damn. Most supplements are on the microgram scale. That goes along with Weston Price (he called it Activator X) though.

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Re: Vitamin K? (And Vitamin A?)

Post Number:#7  Post by skyorbit » Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:30 am

PS:

So he's OK with MK-4 vs MK-7?

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Re: Vitamin K? (And Vitamin A?)

Post Number:#8  Post by Lone Dog » Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:03 am

3-9mg sounds like a mistake or a typo. I've seen figures of around 200mcg quoted for activation, e.g.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/artic ... in-k2.aspx

Other useful info there on D/K2 as well.

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Re: Vitamin K? (And Vitamin A?)

Post Number:#9  Post by exitium » Mon Jan 27, 2014 6:35 am

skyorbit wrote:3-9 milligrams? Damn. Most supplements are on the microgram scale. That goes along with Weston Price (he called it Activator X) though.

Tracy


Yea, I though it seemed like a lot as well, one of the reasons I posted here.

So he's OK with MK-4 vs MK-7?


He didnt really talk much about, just has a page and a half list of recommendations and on it was "Menatetrenone (k2) 3-9mg Daily"

3-9mg sounds like a mistake or a typo. I've seen figures of around 200mcg quoted for activation, e.g.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/artic ... in-k2.aspx

Other useful info there on D/K2 as well.


While Mercola sometimes parrots interesting studies and data most of what he is plugged into is the mainstream journals. I find him more of a marketer than a doctor or scientific researcher, he just has his team collect interesting info to support the use of his products which are often overpriced. He also only recommends 150mcg a day of iodine a day which I believe is a dangerously low amount of iodine and is based on poor science.

Personally I found Levys list to be pretty complete but does totally overlook iodine and vitamin A and has selenium intake at 200mcg, which for many, especially those needing iodine, 200mcg is not nearly enough.

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Re: Vitamin K? (And Vitamin A?)

Post Number:#10  Post by skyorbit » Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:22 am

Mercola's "liposomal" vitamin C is an example of Mercola being a bit of a know-nothing while claiming to know everything.

Relentless improvement has a 15 mg K2-4. I used to be able to find a high dose 500 mcg K2-7 from Vitashop, but they don't have it anymore.

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Re: Vitamin K? (And Vitamin A?)

Post Number:#11  Post by exitium » Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:48 am

The LEF super K product seems pretty potent.

Servings Per Container 90
Amount Per Serving

Vitamin C (as Ascorbyl palmitate) 10 mg
Vitamin K activity 2200 mcg
From:
Vitamin K1 (as phytonadione) 1000 mcg
Vitamin K2 (as menaquinone-4) 1000 mcg
Vitamin K2 (as menaquinone-7) 200 mcg
Ascorbyl palmitate 25 mg

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Re: Vitamin K? (And Vitamin A?)

Post Number:#12  Post by skyorbit » Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:51 pm

I just bought some more high vitamin butter oil from Green Pastures.

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Re: Vitamin K? (And Vitamin A?)

Post Number:#13  Post by ofonorow » Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:17 am

Vitamin K is somewhat obtuse in that most vitamin K1 recommendations are in milligrams, and the variants make the vitamin K issue a little confusing. Forms convert in the body into other forms. I don't have it straight, but I note in DEATH BY CALCIUM (the index) that Levy has 25 different entries for vitamin K!

On page 125 (Chapter: Essential weapons against Osteoporosis) are his current vitamin K dosing recommendations (based on studies cited by the book)

Vitamin K1 - 5 mg daily

Vitamin K2 (MK-4) 45 mg daily in three separate 15 mg doses (Yes I double checked - based on Japanese studies)

Vitamin K2 (MK-7) At least 200 micrograms daily

This is in the discussion of osteoporosis and keeping bones strong.

The next section discusses the lack of toxicity of vitamin K - The MK7 test gave the equivalent of 140 grams (140,000 mg) without any evidence of toxicity.



added on page 127 of Death by Calcium Levy says that the GLAKAY (registered trademark) brand comes in 15 mg capsules of MK-4. From Japan, may require prescription. If an osteoporosis patient can't get the Japanese pills, Levy recommends at least 3 Super-K per day.
Owen R. Fonorow
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American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year

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Re: Vitamin K? (And Vitamin A?)

Post Number:#14  Post by exitium » Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:35 am

Thanks for the additional info Owen. Glad to hear toxicity isnt an issue.

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Re: Vitamin K? (And Vitamin A?)

Post Number:#15  Post by skyorbit » Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:13 pm

So, it looks like the LEF product combined with the RElentless improvement one would work.
Last edited by skyorbit on Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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