Vitamin C, statins, and high cholesterol

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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Re: Vitamin C, statins, and high cholesterol

Post Number:#16  Post by ofonorow » Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:24 pm

I edited the doctor's name as we don't want to make him a target. Re:
I have also upped my vitamin C by 4 grams a day, and after I run out of my premixed drink mix (after tomorrow), I will begin separating out the arginine and lysine. Will also not mix with water to sip on all day. Sheesh, learning a lot. :D


I wanted to mention that I now do put my Cardio-C (or ascorbade) in a water bottle, plus more vitamin C powder, plus our new liposomal vitamin C, and do sip throughout the day. The taste is great, and I don't seem to require as much this way, and it is more in line with the Hickey/Roberts Dynamic Flow theory (ideally 500 mg every 3-4 hours keeps blood levels at their highest.)

Why if there is a loss in 4 hours of 50%? Well the Dr. Sherry Lewin experiments showed this drastic loss, but then it levels off to zero loss after 4 hours for a long period, so worst case, half the vitamin C is lost during the day. (So add 50% cushion if worried.) Also that 50% loss is based on concentration, a low concentration. At higher concentrations, such as filling a water bottle with a lot of vitamin C, the loss should be less.

As far as the lysine/arginine antagonism, we have been trying to track that down for years, and inside the cell there may indeed be such antagonisms, but lysine (and arginine) act outside the cell, in the blood stream w/r to Pauling therapy. Now if the idea is that they both compete for the same intestinal transporters, that might indicate separation, but in foods, they are combined so I don't really see any problem.
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Re: Vitamin C, statins, and high cholesterol

Post Number:#17  Post by aineo » Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:53 pm

I went for my full physical today, and received a copy of my full bloodwork. One thing that has caught my eye is my MPV, which is 13.3. As I understand this, it can be a marker for inflammation, which seems to be right in line with the high cholesterol.

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Re: Vitamin C, statins, and high cholesterol

Post Number:#18  Post by exitium » Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:48 am

aineo wrote:I went for my full physical today, and received a copy of my full bloodwork. One thing that has caught my eye is my MPV, which is 13.3. As I understand this, it can be a marker for inflammation, which seems to be right in line with the high cholesterol.
I would say this is most likely a side effect of the metroprolol and what its doing to your bodies sugar levels.

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Re: Vitamin C, statins, and high cholesterol

Post Number:#19  Post by ofonorow » Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:25 pm

aineo wrote:I went for my full physical today, and received a copy of my full bloodwork. One thing that has caught my eye is my MPV, which is 13.3. As I understand this, it can be a marker for inflammation, which seems to be right in line with the high cholesterol.


That was the bad news, any good news?
Lp(a)?
Total Cholesterol?
glucose?
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Re: Vitamin C, statins, and high cholesterol

Post Number:#20  Post by aineo » Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:28 am

I want to first thank everyone for the responses.

The bloodwork I reported at the beginning of this thread is the same one I referred to after my physical on Monday. I always do mine a week ahead of time so the doctor has it when I am there for the physical. Even so, I do have all the numbers now, though you will notice Lp(a) was not taken:

Image
Image

I left my physical Monday with what I wanted, which is a referral to the specialist in Nashville who seems to be one who seeks to find the root cause, not just medicate a problem. I was fortunate in that he has a cancellation on Monday, February 10th and was able to get me in. From what I am being told, he is going to do much more thorough testing when I arrive, including Lp(a) and many other tests.

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Re: Vitamin C, statins, and high cholesterol

Post Number:#21  Post by ofonorow » Sun Feb 09, 2014 2:15 pm

You should get a better analysis of these numbers from one of the docs, and I'll soon move this into the Heart Disease section so they don't miss it.

Glucose 108 is okay.

Your total cholesterol and triglycerides are elevated. (I was just reading a book, but I must be getting old, can't remember, but the book offered a nutritional treatment that always reduces triglycerides - fat in the blood.)
I know Atkins noted that his patients going on a low-carb diet unexpectedly reduced triglycerides.
I am reading Niacin: The Real Story and will double check, but we do know that Niacin has been studied and reduces cholesterol.
I am becoming convinced that everyone should be taking around 3000 mg of niacin daily, perhaps just before bed.

The information about triglycerides may have been in there (or maybe Levy's DEATH BY CALCIUM.) Or the IODINE/Thyroid books. Sorry I will see if I can find it.

However, we do know that at an "optimal" vitamin C intake, total cholesterol normalizes to 180 mg/dl. You are 100 points higher, and the claim is you weren't there last year. What is different? This is a strong indication that you are battling some toxicity, and that your optimal vitamin C intake is higher than you are currently taking. Are you near bowel tolerance? http://vitamincfoundation.org/pdfs/Vitamin_C_Dosage_in_Disease.pdf It may be easier to add vitamin C using the liposomal form.


Added

No references in the new Levy book but several references in Niacin: The Real Story for triglycerides.
After pointing out that niacin (not niacinimide) lowers cholesterol and tryglycerides, on page 118 there is this information:

Grundy and his colleagues found that Niacin lowered cholesterol by 22 percent and triglycerides by 52 percent and wrote "To our knowledge, no other single agent has such potential for lowering both cholesterol and triglycerides."


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Re: Vitamin C, statins, and high cholesterol

Post Number:#22  Post by Johnwen » Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:25 am

Blood work looks pretty good a couple of things that caught my eye
Elevated Anion gap, calcium, TSH.
Most docs would just say their in range, their fine!
However when these number I mentioned fall in the higher range or above NORMAL they start to point the finger at specific problems in this case I would be looking at the thyroid/parathyroid region.
Futher testing would confirm or disspell my thoughts.
I would order a
PTH
Ionized calcium
Free T3-T4
These are simple blood draws but would give a yes or no to what I'm seeing.
If these are normal I would then add a little iodine to diet or maybe a "good" multi with iodine in the mix.
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Re: Vitamin C, statins, and high cholesterol

Post Number:#23  Post by aineo » Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:33 pm

ofonorow wrote:This is a strong indication that you are battling some toxicity, and that your optimal vitamin C intake is higher than you are currently taking. Are you near bowel tolerance? http://vitamincfoundation.org/pdfs/Vitamin_C_Dosage_in_Disease.pdf It may be easier to add vitamin C using the liposomal form.


Owen, the last few days I have taken 45g or more of vitamin C, though I am battling a light cold as well, so that could have an impact. I have been teetering at bowel tolerance, though yesterday I took 47g and did not reach bowel tolerance.

Grundy and his colleagues found that Niacin lowered cholesterol by 22 percent and triglycerides by 52 percent and wrote "To our knowledge, no other single agent has such potential for lowering both cholesterol and triglycerides."


This is absolutely amazing. The new doctor I went to today is a big proponent of Niacin, and though he is waiting on the results of his blood work, he was very upfront that he expected Niacin to be a part of that. I am going to go ahead and order some now and start on it asap.

Thanks for the feedback and moving this to the Heart Disease and Stroke Section.

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Re: Vitamin C, statins, and high cholesterol

Post Number:#24  Post by aineo » Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:50 pm

Johnwen wrote:Blood work looks pretty good a couple of things that caught my eye
Elevated Anion gap, calcium, TSH.
Most docs would just say their in range, their fine!
However when these number I mentioned fall in the higher range or above NORMAL they start to point the finger at specific problems in this case I would be looking at the thyroid/parathyroid region.
Futher testing would confirm or disspell my thoughts.
I would order a
PTH
Ionized calcium
Free T3-T4
These are simple blood draws but would give a yes or no to what I'm seeing.
If these are normal I would then add a little iodine to diet or maybe a "good" multi with iodine in the mix.


Thanks for this, Johnwen. I had the appointment today with the new doctor, and didn't see this before I went, but I can discuss this with him at the followup in two weeks. He ran a number of tests on me today, so before that next appointment on the 25th I should have a lot more information. This includes: heavy metal testing, stress test, x-ray of chest and lungs, ultrasound of heart and abdomen (to be done on the 25th), a comprehensive nutritional panel, Cardiovascular tests (includes: Lipoprotein Fractionation, Lipoprotein particle numbers, Apolipoprotein B, Total cholesterol, HDL, LDL Triglycerides, Lipoprotein (a), Homocysteine, C-Reactive Protein HS, Insulin, Apolipoprotein A-l, Apolipoprotein B) Telomere Analysis, and Apolipoprotein E Genotyping. There was another test he had performed while I was there that measured endothelial dysfunction. Finally, I think, I am wearing a blood pressure monitor for 24 hours.

As said above, I am going back in two weeks, and I will bring up these points with him then.

Hhe gave me his exact recommendations for slowly coming off the metoprolol, and he prescribed Azor to begin ramping up on as I come off the metoprolol.

Finally, and perhaps the only thing I am feeling some uneasiness about, he suggested that he will probably recommend Red Yeast Rice for my cholesterol. When challenged on this, he stated that he is 100% in agreement that the high cholesterol is indicative of something else, but he felt strongly that we needed to get it down while we find out what is causing it. He reassured me that it has a much better track record than statins, but that is something I need to spend some time researching before I go back.

Overall, I was really impressed with this guy. Through discussion I found he is well aware of Dr. Levy and has actually sat on panels with him in the past. No, it doesn't mean a whole lot, but it gave me some additional comfort that he is going to seek to find the problem.

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Re: Vitamin C, statins, and high cholesterol

Post Number:#25  Post by ofonorow » Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:35 pm

http://www.newswithviews.com/Ellison/shane16.htm Might want to share this link with your doctor. Ellison used to be a pharmaceutical chemist - and explains that there is little difference between the statin, and the plants (red yeast rice fungus) where the idea came from.

A better idea is Niaspan - use niacin to lower cholesterol.
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Re: Vitamin C, statins, and high cholesterol

Post Number:#26  Post by aineo » Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:57 pm

ofonorow wrote:http://www.newswithviews.com/Ellison/shane16.htm Might want to share this link with your doctor. Ellison used to be a pharmaceutical chemist - and explains that there is little difference between the statin, and the plants (red yeast rice fungus) where the idea came from.

A better idea is Niaspan - use niacin to lower cholesterol.


Thanks for the article, Owen. I will certainly share this with my doctor.

Regarding Niacin/Niaspan - it seems to me Niacin, as long as it is not no-flush Niacin, would be the better alternative rather than Niaspan, which obviously is further processed in some way. Is there something I am missing?

Also, regarding Niacin, I guess the same question comes to me as one of the questions about the Red Yeast Rice. Is artificially lowering cholesterol, even through Niacin, a good idea? This doctor obviously thinks so, explaining that the body might need some help as the root issues are identified and resolved. I would really like some opinions from folks here as well.

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Re: Vitamin C, statins, and high cholesterol

Post Number:#27  Post by tjohnson_nb » Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:50 pm

When taken at doses greater than the RDA, niacin confers an array of health benefits. Niacin:

  • Increases high-density lipoprotein (HDL) by 20-35%. No other available over-the-counter treatments, and very few drugs, are as effective.
  • Decreases small low-density lipoprotein (small LDL) particles. Small LDL is an important yet underappreciated cause of heart disease. Niacin is the most effective agent known for correcting this abnormal pattern.
  • Decreases triglycerides by 30%. Niacin is especially effective when taken with fish oil (at doses of 4000 mg a day, providing 1200 mg of EPA/DHA).
  • Decreases very low-density lipoprotein (VLDL) particles.
  • Decreases lipoprotein(a), or Lp(a). No other treatment approaches the power of niacin to reduce the genetically determined pattern of high Lp(a), which is among the most serious risk factors for heart disease.
  • Decreases low-density lipoprotein (LDL), usually by 20-40 mg/dL, or 5-25%.

See https://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2007/mar2007_atd_01.htm

Many people don't like the flush with straight niacin, but it usually stops after a few weeks of building up the dose. I take 500 mg 3-4 times a day now with very little flush.
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Re: Vitamin C, statins, and high cholesterol

Post Number:#28  Post by aineo » Sat Feb 15, 2014 6:22 am

Thanks much, tjohnson_nb. Have read up on the niacin more and started it a few days ago.

I also received my bloodwork yesterday from the new doctor. I'll share mostly only those parts that showed as high or low, though I don't mind sharing any numbers:

Glucose - 104
Albumin - 5.2
Non-HDL Cholesterol - 224
Triglycerides - 215 (Was 372 two weeks ago. Notice how much lower that is. Have increased vC and fish oil since the last blood test a week ago. Perhaps this is playing a role.)
Total Cholesterol - 254 (was 280 two weeks ago)
HDL - 30 (Was 33 two weeks ago)
LDL - 181
Cardio CRP - 7.9 (I would assume some of this might be from the still ongoing, but almost gone, tendonitis.)
Red Blood Cell Count - 5.93
MCH - 26.9
Though it doesn't show as high, the MCV is at the low end of normal at 81.3.
Though not showing as low, my platelet count is 142, which is at the low end of normal.

A few comments on this. First, I am quite aware that cholesterol can vary even on the same day, but the triglyceride reading was encouraging. It is still too high, but moving the right direction. Second, this isn't the full bloodwork he ordered, only a portion. I am expecting LP(a), but may not know it until the follow-up appointment in two weeks. He also does tests to measure the size of the cholesterol, which were not included in these results.

I've been hovering right at BT taking 40+g of vitamin C a day, but took 56g yesterday and hit BT solidly. Will go back to 45 or so today.

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Re: Vitamin C, statins, and high cholesterol

Post Number:#29  Post by ofonorow » Sat Feb 15, 2014 1:37 pm

aineo wrote:

Also, regarding Niacin, I guess the same question comes to me as one of the questions about the Red Yeast Rice. Is artificially lowering cholesterol, even through Niacin, a good idea? This doctor obviously thinks so, explaining that the body might need some help as the root issues are identified and resolved. I would really like some opinions from folks here as well.


The basic (and profound) difference between niacin and the statins (and the red yeast rice) is that niacin is a vitamin, required for life. The statin drugs are based on a poison.

But your question is a good one, and I happen to subscribe to the Pauling/Rath unified theory that the underlying cause of heart disease is a vitamin C deficiency. Without correcting this problem, I do not think anyone should lower slightly elevated cholesterol as it is there for a purpose. (In Niacin: The Real Story there is a short deduction by Hoffer about this towards the end in the Cardiovascular disease section.. Why Niacin seems to work. The other forms, slow release (from memory now) have not been shown to lower cholesterol in the studied... Please correct me folks.)

It is interesting that since Hoffer almost always, as far as I could tell, recommended vitamin C to his patients along with niacin, the effects he reports could be due, at least in part to the vitamin C. What I haven't researched is if the early niacin studies gave any vitamin C.

Key is vitamin C and that's why we are here
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Re: Vitamin C, statins, and high cholesterol

Post Number:#30  Post by Johnwen » Mon Feb 17, 2014 2:39 pm

Aineo:

Did they ever check your T levels?
Testosterone???

The reason I'm asking is statins do lower T levels and if your hovering around the low end of the T range the Statins might knock you down to a range were you experience problems. Low T also causes elevated Cholesterol levels which is just the body trying to up the production of T by throwing in more raw product at the process. Testosterone is made from cholesterol.
Worth checking before you go with red yeast rice which is just Lovastatin.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... -11-57.pdf
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