Acute atherosclerosis and claudication vs vit C formula

[ofonorow]

Rereading your first post - your problems seem mainly in your legs, correct? Another term may be "intermittent claudication" and I bring this up because if the arteries around your heart are healthy and sound - i.e., where the physical forces of the heart beat are great causing wear-and-tear, and usually leading to heart disease in people not taking enough vitamin C - then there may be other issues. Generally peripheral blockages seemed harder to deal with than conventional heart disease around the heart.

Going back to Roger J Williams NUTRITION AGAINST DISEASE, from memory he had this problem and solved it using magnesium, perhaps putting his feet in a magnesium bath (e.g. Epsom Salts.)

If the cardiovascular disease is generalized, you are just aware of it in your legs, then the Pauling protocol will help, whether you know it or not.

We are all different in how much vitamin C we required, but for cardiovascular disease around the heart, at least 10,000 mg of vitamin C.

As I tried to caution - you should only need 2500 mg to 6000 mg of lysine.

500 mg to 1 g of proline has worked very well in the Heart Technology formula for ordinary heart disease.

Given the leg issues, there may be something else going on. If you could afford it, I would add 1 jar monthly of the Tower Ascorsine-9 - as it contains many other important nutrients that many heart patients lack.

You should consider more magnesium and potassium.

Another thought. Seriously misguided negative publicity has been frightening people from taking high doses of vitamin E.
This is a serious mistake, especially for heart patients. If I had pain in my legs, I would follow Pauling's advice and make sure that I was taking 400 to 800 iu or more. The very best vitamin E is Unique-E from A. C. Grace..

[davids1]

In the Willis guinea pig experiments on the reversibility of atherosclerosis, it is true that vitamin C alone was the surprising single factor. But when Willis progressed to humans, only 1/3 of the subjects experienced reversals in their atherosclerotic plaques. (in 1/3 of his human subjects, their heart conditions got worse.)

If you remember the very first case Pauling reported (and on the Video - I will look for the snippet) the National Academy of Sciences Medal Winner had heart disease, despite his 5 grams of vitamin C daily. He still had angina and trouble walking. The first case is in this video snippet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PN8up1U ... r_embedded )

After Pauling suggested he add 5 grams of lysine, a month later this scientist was chopping wood.

Hi Owen,

Three points:

1) I [for one] do not find it "surprising" at all that the "single factor" of "a large amount" of ascorbate reversed the guinea pig's atherosclerosis.

2) Do you know [and/or can you direct me to the study] if Willis used the same proportional amount of vitamin C with the human subjects as with the guinea pigs? Because, why would he get those results, e.g. some people got worse? Personally, I have complete faith that, as Levy put it, "I am absolutely convinced of one thing -- when enough vitamin C is given...for a long enough time, vitamin C helps virtually every condition..." [emphasis mine] Further, the humans were probably not as healthy as the guinea pigs [we usually are not], and therefore needed an even larger [proportional] amount of ascorbate, e.g. a Bowel Tolerance dose [if it was being given orally].

As has happened so many times, in so-called "objective" studies, again quoting Levy, "...when tiny doses have been tested....researchers often report that vitamin C had no positive clinical effect. Many seemingly unethical studies appear to have employed this fact to discredit vitamin C's efficacy by purposely testing with very small amounts. The researchers then conclude that vitamin C was of no value at all, rather than just ineffective at a tiny dose." In my particular case, "5 grams" [or even 10, for that matter] would be a "tiny" dose indeed!

3) In the case of the scientist, we do not know that an additional 5 grams of ascorbic acid would not have had the same beneficial effect as the additional 5 grams of lysine. True? I am most certainly not questioning lysine's efficacy [when combined with adequate amounts of ascorbate] in reversing atherosclerosis. I was simply trying to point out, in this case to Zarna, that there is scientific evidence that ascorbate alone could accomplish the same beneficial result.

Just saying,

David

[Zarna]

In the Willis guinea pig experiments on the reversibility of atherosclerosis, it is true that vitamin C alone was the surprising single factor. But when Willis progressed to humans, only 1/3 of the subjects experienced reversals in their atherosclerotic plaques. (in 1/3 of his human subjects, their heart conditions got worse.)

If you remember the very first case Pauling reported (and on the Video - I will look for the snippet) the National Academy of Sciences Medal Winner had heart disease, despite his 5 grams of vitamin C daily. He still had angina and trouble walking. The first case is in this video snippet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PN8up1U ... r_embedded )

After Pauling suggested he add 5 grams of lysine, a month later this scientist was chopping wood.

Hi Owen,

Three points:

1) I [for one] do not find it "surprising" at all that the "single factor" of "a large amount" of ascorbate reversed the guinea pig's atherosclerosis.

2) Do you know [and/or can you direct me to the study] if Willis used the same proportional amount of vitamin C with the human subjects as with the guinea pigs? Because, why would he get those results, e.g. some people got worse? Personally, I have complete faith that, as Levy put it, "I am absolutely convinced of one thing -- when enough vitamin C is given...for a long enough time, vitamin C helps virtually every condition..." [emphasis mine] Further, the humans were probably not as healthy as the guinea pigs [we usually are not], and therefore needed an even larger [proportional] amount of ascorbate, e.g. a Bowel Tolerance dose [if it was being given orally].

As has happened so many times, in so-called "objective" studies, again quoting Levy, "...when tiny doses have been tested....researchers often report that vitamin C had no positive clinical effect. Many seemingly unethical studies appear to have employed this fact to discredit vitamin C's efficacy by purposely testing with very small amounts. The researchers then conclude that vitamin C was of no value at all, rather than just ineffective at a tiny dose." In my particular case, "5 grams" [or even 10, for that matter] would be a "tiny" dose indeed!

3) In the case of the scientist, we do not know that an additional 5 grams of ascorbic acid would not have had the same beneficial effect as the additional 5 grams of lysine. True? I am most certainly not questioning lysine's efficacy [when combined with adequate amounts of ascorbate] in reversing atherosclerosis. I was simply trying to point out, in this case to Zarna, that there is scientific evidence that ascorbate alone could accomplish the same beneficial result.

Just saying,

David

Dear Owen and David,

Owen I take it that i have not given details from the beginning. Also i was out of WI FI , they had breakdown, I am back on. Here are the details of my sickness:

1. In 1992 I saw Cardiologist friend to make sure that having the history of cardiovascular disrase in the family that I am cleared of it. Had no symptoms. He did my stress test, then went on to nuclear test and finally after about 2 months i had angiography done. My major right artery of heart had 95% blockage, two left arteries were 45-50% blocked. He also said my arteries like that of indians, thin, so he said bypass is not possible but i shall have to stay on medicines the whole of my life. they were ASpirin 100mg, Lipitor 5 mg and tenormin 25mg. over a period of time these doses increased to Aspirin 100mg, Lipitor 40mg and Tenormin 50mg. until i had cardiac arrest - HEART FAILURE ONE DAY IN THE PARK. I was dead for about 5mins till ambulance came, but there was a nurse who was giving me mouth to mouth, no result. After 3 shocks i cam to and they immediately took me to my hospital 30 km away. i survived till next day, took me for angio but i collapsed and they did emergency surgery opening the heart to see what they could do. Gave me 20% chance to live. I have lost4 days of my life, only woke up in ICU the 4th day and got the news.

2. Since then i have gone to hospital a few times thru ambulance. still on medicine. My carotid artery has been operated. after 2008 I started not believing in medicines. i believed in surgery but I thought medicines did not cure diseases. They just maintained you. I started searching for cure since 2009. Slowly I gave up all medication. I experimented with Serrapeptase, Nattokinese, DHEA etc. I think I was a little novice because I did not give anything enough time. Now I realise that to cure/reverse plaques, you need to give yourself atleast 2 years. i am notv wiser and I think I have found the right application in Vit C. I have put all my faith in this.

3. So Owen, my vascular plaque and blockages are related to heart and may be even diet. i am doing my best to avoid what I should not take. I was want to see a sucess with this. Also i shall take your advise to change Tower Tech to Ascorsene-9 if it helps. But your postages are killers. So still stay on 1 tub and the rest I shall make myself. At the moment I take about 17gms Ascorbate, 17gms L-Lysine, 1/2 tsp proline and 2 little spoons Stevia. I think stevia seems to be the stabiliser in that I do not get diorrhea with all stools. Only one does empty my stomach and I am actually very comfortable with these doses. I can even increase the dose a little.
MY QUESTION IS WILL THIS WORK OWEN? AM I ON THE RIGHT TRACK? AND AT WHAT INTERVALS SHOULD I BE TAKING THESE DOSES? HOURLY OR TWO HOURLY? SHOULD THE VIT C BE SUPPLIED CONTINUOUSLY TO ARTERIES OR CAN THAT BE CHANGED? I TAKE THIS DOSE IN 700ML OF WATER.

4. If either of you can throw a light on this I will be very happy. I have found a doctor who is willing for me to do this therapy but has given me advise to take 2 things.
a. Take Aspirin which i did since 6 months now - my solution in place of aspirin was Serrapeptase (which i still take) and nattokinese. they both are known to thin your blood.
b. This is one DRUG introduced in my life again. It IS HYDROCHLOROTHIAZIDE 12.5MG + TEMISARTAN 40MG CALLED MICARDIS PLUS made by Boehringer Ingelheim.
she is a nice doctor and I do not mind a bit of her care. She said a bit of this and a bit of that. But ofcourse she will not know if Vit C will reverse my plaque.

I think I have given you detailed history, my disease is heart and arteris related. So I have put faith in LINUS PSULING philosophy.

I would love to hear from you both David and Owen.
Zarna

[Johnwen]

When they operated on you in 92 what did they do to you??
My assumption would be that they did a bypass if so where did they harvest the graft from.
If your not sure is there a long scar on one of your legs??
This is kind of important since there is a condition called Neo-intimal hyperplasia which is were the body makes an attempt to grow endothiel cells in the bypass graft and gets it clogged up.

[Zarna]

When they operated on you in 92 what did they do to you??
My assumption would be that they did a bypass if so where did they harvest the graft from.
If your not sure is there a long scar on one of your legs??
This is kind of important since there is a condition called Neo-intimal hyperplasia which is were the body makes an attempt to grow endothiel cells in the bypass graft and gets it clogged up.

hello Johnwen,

BIG CORRECTION OF OMISSION IN MY PREVIOUS POST. I WROTE MY LONG STORY AND FORGOT THE YEAR. OF MY HEART FAILURE. IT WAS IN 2004 April. SO IT IS ABOUT 10 YEARS AGO. THE GRAFTS CAME FROM MY BOTH LEGS AND LONG ENOUGH TO GO RIGHT UPTO MY ANKLES STARTING AT ABT 6 INCHES FROM KNEE.

I HAVE SUFFERED PAINS AT THESE CUTS AND THEY WERE EXTREMELY PAINFUL WHEN I USED TO GET MASSAGED BUT NOW ONLY AT THE ANKLE THERE IS SLIGHT PAIN. BUT HOW CAN BOTH MY LEGS HAVE BLOCKED ARTERIES, SO SEVERE THAT IT BRINGS MY CALF MUSCLES INTO UNBEARABLE PAIN?

What is Neo-intimal hyperplasia and will my vit C formula help?

Would love to know that. In the meantime I shall look up google to understand Neo-intimal.......

Thanks for helping me Johnwen.

Zarna

[Johnwen]

Z
Owen and Dave gave some pretty good advice on the V-C dosages and it would be good to stay as high as posible.
However in addition your going to have to add some supps. and possibly some scripted meds to help.

Heres what happens when they use a vein for a graft after a well the body senses the extra vessel and wants it to do it's part in the production of nitric oxide. To do this it try's to grow more endothiel cells in the vessel (vein graft) however veins can't have endothiel cells inside them. But that doesn't stop the body from trying in doing this. The cells grow around the junction and since they can't go inside the tube they keep growing around the opening and eventually block it and your back to square one with a blocked graft and a blocked artery. Usually before you go into a full blown heart attack you start experience the symptoms of a clogged artery Ie: shortness of breath, chest pain that radiates etc! Is this common? Yes! 90% of all bypass grafts will close down in this manner. Some as early as one year others can go for over 10 years.
Heres the plan for prevention! You increase your production of nitric oxide! So the body don't look for more!!
In scripted meds the use of nitro, But the fast acting type is a shot in the dark. You need something in a extended release such as Imdur (Isobride mononitrate) this works pretty good.
As for supps. L-arginine 2x a day plus 10mg policosonol works pretty good. Or L-citrulline goes throught the 9 step process to produce nitric so it takes longer and you don't get the levels as fast a Arg.& Poli but it's good for prevention in the long run.
In an emergency placing a DE stent in the bypass buy's time but when the poison wears off the process starts all over.
The body does what the body does.
Hope this helps with your understanding.

[davids1]

MY QUESTION IS WILL THIS WORK OWEN? AM I ON THE RIGHT TRACK? AND AT WHAT INTERVALS SHOULD I BE TAKING THESE DOSES? HOURLY OR TWO HOURLY? SHOULD THE VIT C BE SUPPLIED CONTINUOUSLY TO ARTERIES OR CAN THAT BE CHANGED? I TAKE THIS DOSE IN 700ML OF WATER. 4. If either of you can throw a light on this I will be very happy....So I have put faith in LINUS PSULING philosophy. I would love to hear from you both David and Owen.

Hi Zarna,

As Johnwen put it:

...on the V-C dosages...it would be good to stay as high as posible. [emphasis mine]

To quote Dr. Levy [again], Zarna:

The three most important considerations in effective vitamin C therapy are "Dose, Dose, and Dose." If you don't take enough, you won't get the desired effects. Period!...you will rarely ever fail to observe a DRAMATIC response...IF you take a large enough dose for a long enough time. [emphasis mine]

So [from my view], Zarna, Bowel Tolerance is the KEY! Simply keep ingesting as much ascorbic acid as your body is willing to accept/absorb, as often as it is willing to accept/absorb it! I do believe this will give you the best chance of successfully resolving your health situation [as is (practicably) available].

And, as Owen put it:

We are all different in how much vitamin C we required....Another thought. Seriously misguided negative publicity has been frightening people from taking high doses of vitamin E. This is a serious mistake, especially for heart patients. If I had pain in my legs, I would follow Pauling's advice and make sure that I was taking 400 to 800 iu or more.

Yes, "we are all different in how much vitamin C we require,", and even our bodily situation is constantly changing, e.g. hour-by-hour. Therefore, it is difficult [and probably impossible] to say just how much ascorbic acid you should ingest at any particular time. But your body knows, and will indicate that fact/situation to you via its Bowel Tolerance reaction. And I agree with Owen's recommendation for large doses of vitamin E, given your leg pain.

I hope this helps, as "grist for your mill," Zarna, and wish you the best of success!

Sincerely,

David

P.S. And I am certainly not suggesting that you should ignore Johnwen's other [supplement] suggestions. After all, he is the doctor [and also, unusually (for doctors), clearly understands the importance of ascorbate]!

[Zarna]

Z
Owen and Dave gave some pretty good advice on the V-C dosages and it would be good to stay as high as posible.
However in addition your going to have to add some supps. and possibly some scripted meds to help.

Heres what happens when they use a vein for a graft after a well the body senses the extra vessel and wants it to do it's part in the production of nitric oxide. To do this it try's to grow more endothiel cells in the vessel (vein graft) however veins can't have endothiel cells inside them. But that doesn't stop the body from trying in doing this. The cells grow around the junction and since they can't go inside the tube they keep growing around the opening and eventually block it and your back to square one with a blocked graft and a blocked artery. Usually before you go into a full blown heart attack you start experience the symptoms of a clogged artery Ie: shortness of breath, chest pain that radiates etc! Is this common? Yes! 90% of all bypass grafts will close down in this manner. Some as early as one year others can go for over 10 years.
Heres the plan for prevention! You increase your production of nitric oxide! So the body don't look for more!!
In scripted meds the use of nitro, But the fast acting type is a shot in the dark. You need something in a extended release such as Imdur (Isobride mononitrate) this works pretty good.
As for supps. L-arginine 2x a day plus 10mg policosonol works pretty good. Or L-citrulline goes throught the 9 step process to produce nitric so it takes longer and you don't get the levels as fast a Arg.& Poli but it's good for prevention in the long run.
In an emergency placing a DE stent in the bypass buy's time but when the poison wears off the process starts all over.
The body does what the body does.
Hope this helps with your understanding.

Dear Dr. Johnwen,

What you have written makes perfect sense to me. I shall introduce in my medicine these supplements. I am leaving for Melbourne today and my lady doctor is in melbourne and I shall see her and show her your medication IMDUR. I shall take your letter. She will understand. I shall get L-argentine and picosanol both and introduce in my supplements. I am making my own Vit C formula and take one dose of heart tech. My formula has 14gms Vit C +14gms L-lysine etc and so far bowel tolerant. I shall increase the dosage of these two upto the point that I can tolerate in the body.

I shall send my next post after seeing my Melbourne Doctor....after a week or so. I thank you doctor, I am encouraged to place faith in doctors again.

Zarna.

[ofonorow]

I would like to repeat zarna - the 14 g of lysine may be too much.. very close to the upper limit computed by johnwen some time ago. Supplementing 6 (in addition to diet which provides some) has been sufficient to reverse atherosclerosis when enough vitamin C is also present.

Vitamin C on the other hand can vary from 4 grams to over 100,000 mg daily - and we have several ways to know how much we require.

[Johnwen]

I concur with Owen!

Anything over 6 Grams could very well cause stomach, GI problems!

[Zarna]

I concur with Owen!

Anything over 6 Grams could very well cause stomach, GI problems!

Dear owen and Johnwen,

Great, never picked up the dosage on L-lisine so far. Always thought both had to be equal. From tomorrow I shall put only upto 6gms of it. Thank for pointing this out. I shall see how this goes....I am already in melbourne. Will see my doctor on Wednesday.

Johnwen, you mentioned INDUR does it also come in patch form? Would a patch be more suitable? My friend wears a patch and he is very happy. He says he never worries about his health after the patch!

zarna

[ofonorow]

always a good idea when changing significant dosages - to wean, change slowly over time..

[Zarna]

always a good idea when changing significant dosages - to wean, change slowly over time..

Thanks owen, today I mixed only 6gms L-Lysine into 20gms of Vit-C. I shall observe how it goes
Into the system. Also when I make changes to my supplements, I shall let you both know my dosages. It will only be when I return to Gold Coast.

Zarna

[ofonorow]

I was suggesting - now for others - that you first try reducing to 12 g lysine, then 10 grams the next day, etc. until you reach 6 - just in case the body had built up some kind of dependency. Probably an unnecessary caution.

[Zarna]

I was suggesting - now for others - that you first try reducing to 12 g lysine, then 10 grams the next day, etc. until you reach 6 - just in case the body had built up some kind of dependency. Probably an unnecessary caution.

OK. MY DOSE TODAY CAN BE 10GMS, THOUGH IT WAS OK WITH 6GMS.