can she unclog her arteries?

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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Re: can she unclog her arteries?

Post Number:#16  Post by ofonorow » Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:11 am

That was astray?

thanks alot sir

Just couple of questions.

Should I consult her cardiologist or with doctor who practices nutritional medicine as

Ron Kennedy, M.D
http://www.medical-library.net/vitamin_ ... sease.html said before giving her both supp?

Should I supplement with the above recommendation for vit c/lysin or should I purchase the cardio-c?

regards

SL

You said you live in India - correct. If vitamin C tablets and lysine tablets are available, you may begin following Linus Pauling's protocol immediately. The first step is to determine how much vitamin C the woman can tolerate. If it is less then 10,000 mg then you should consider liposomal. (But it is not clear to me this woman's arteries are clogged from what I've read).

Consulting a physician is your prerogative, but don't expect them to be trained or knowledgeable about the value of vitamin C and lysine. Know that neither nutrient has any known toxic oral dose and neither vitamin C or lysine (currently) requires a prescription.

The value of Cardio-C is convenience (a drink instead of 10 or 20 pills) and it contains proline, another potent Lp(a) binding inhibitor, not specifically recommended by Pauling, but recommended by his associate Mathias Rath, MD. But you can probably obtain the primary anti-CVD effect with pills.


[/quote]
davids1 wrote:Hi Owen,

Question: Did Pauling specifically write that "Vitamin C by itself will not (always) resolve existing heart disease?" I would agree, if a person's GI tract is not healthy enough to ingest enough ascorbate, they probably will not be able to resolve it. But my view would be that if they persevere, they will eventually be able to ingest enough [daily] to resolve it [if they do not die first].

In the case you mentioned above [of the scientist], he could not resolve it with [a mere] 5 grams a day. Maybe his Bowel Tolerance, and therefore need, was 10 to 20 times that. He added 5 grams of lysine to his 5 grams of ascorbic acid daily, and resolved it. How do we know he would not have had just as good a result if he had upped his ascorbic acid intake to 10 grams per day? Perhaps the lysine is valuable because it allows a person to not have to raise their Bowel Tolerance [to ascorbic acid], and yet still be able to resolve their heart disease. And I would certainly agree, if that is the case, it would definitely make lysine a valuable supplement indeed.

Am I missing something here, i.e. it does not seem to me that the case for lysine's necessity is proven? Yes it clearly works, but is it proven/demonstrated anywhere, that ascorbic acid alone, at [daily] Bowel Tolerance doses, will not get the job done?

Just asking [and thinking out loud],

David


Great - I think we need to continue to discuss this periodically. It is important information - reversing heart disease, life saving.

Remember you David are a person who takes something like 100,000 mg of vitamin C daily - and to you, that is not a big deal.

We welcome your input, but remember, most people listen to the government. We are trying to encourage people that they should take 3,000 mg daily (our RDA), rather than 70 mg to 200 mg. And many people are unable to afford supplements, they are looking for value, etc. Okay, now to your questions/points.




Question: Did Pauling specifically write that "Vitamin C by itself will not (always) resolve existing heart disease?" I would agree, if a person's GI tract is not healthy enough to ingest enough ascorbate, they probably will not be able to resolve it. But my view would be that if they persevere, they will eventually be able to ingest enough [daily] to resolve it [if they do not die first]


Your postulate seems to be that some (high enough) intake of vitamin C will overcome existing heart disease.
Lets assume this is true for the sake of argument.

My father had something like 8 brothers and sisters and he and they ALL died of massive heart attacks. My father never caught a cold, but, he could not tolerate more than 200 mg of vitamin C in one day - otherwise he was on the pot all day. (I have pointed out many times the wide variance of bowel tolerance, even in the same family. I take around 15,000 to 20,000 mg daily. I have often wondered if liposomal vitamin C had existed, whether that would have provided him with the vitamin C need to resist cardiovascular disease - but otherwise, he could not tolerate.

I don't know the situation with the scientist, but getting a scientist to agree to take 5000 mg of vitamin C is quite an accomplishment!
Given the gas/diarrhea issues, I would not expect the idea of following in your footsteps to always be appealing.

I have also noticed that while the body requires enormous temporary resources of vitamin C (ascorbate) during infections the same requirements do not apply to chronic scurvy - commonly heart disease. Most people are protected by a "mere" 10,000 mg of vitamin C daily, so yes, it is possible the scientist was only taking about half of the vitamin C he required to overcome his condition.

But the effects of the addition of about 5 g of lysine is always astounding to me (especially after reading Dr. Levy's STOP AMERICA'S #1 KILLER. Yes Dr. Levy ties heart disease factors to vitamin C deficiency, but his description of the disease in the artery makes it seem impossible that 5 grams of lysine can reverse this condition in 30 days!)

Our walls are full of testimonials of people near death, out of medical options, who have tried Pauling's therapy - with lysine (and proline) - and recovered almost instantly.

So what Pauling said is on video and their unified theory paper, about heart disease being caused from a general lack of vitamin C, but yes, he did say to "reverse" heart disease, you need lysine.


In the case you mentioned above [of the scientist], he could not resolve it with [a mere] 5 grams a day. Maybe his Bowel Tolerance, and therefore need, was 10 to 20 times that. He added 5 grams of lysine to his 5 grams of ascorbic acid daily, and resolved it. How do we know he would not have had just as good a result if he had upped his ascorbic acid intake to 10 grams per day? Perhaps the lysine is valuable because it allows a person to not have to raise their Bowel Tolerance [to ascorbic acid], and yet still be able to resolve their heart disease. And I would certainly agree, if that is the case, it would definitely make lysine a valuable supplement indeed.

Am I missing something here, i.e. it does not seem to me that the case for lysine's necessity is proven? Yes it clearly works, but is it proven/demonstrated anywhere, that ascorbic acid alone, at [daily] Bowel Tolerance doses, will not get the job done?


Great question.

Remember my father - his bowel tolerance was 200 mg. He may have required another 9800 mg daily that HE COULD NOT TAKE.

My half-brother (Mike Till Sr) was almost as low - we think his tolerance may have been around 1000 mg - but he knew the value and tried to take a lot more - regardless of the diarrhea. When liposomal came into the picture, I thought this would save him.

Also, we make these "outrageous" recommendations here - very high amounts of vitamin C until diarrhea - but out in the real world, this advice is unlikely to be heeded without consent from a doctor...

And bowel tolerance - for stress and infection - does not seem to apply for chronic scurvy. Much lower dosages (usually much higher than people are taking) resolve chronic scurvy.

Owen R. Fonorow
HeartCURE.Info
American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year

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Re: can she unclog her arteries?

Post Number:#17  Post by davids1 » Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:16 pm

Owen wrote:...remember, most people listen to the government. We are trying to encourage people that they should take 3,000 mg daily (our RDA), rather than 70 mg to 200 mg.]
Point well taken.
Owen wrote:Your postulate seems to be that some (high enough) intake of vitamin C will overcome existing heart disease. Lets assume this is true for the sake of argument.
It apparently worked for the guinea pigs.
Owen wrote: My father never caught a cold, but, he could not tolerate more than 200 mg of vitamin C in one day - otherwise he was on the pot all day.
Understood. I simply like to point out that if he would have persevered awhile [admittedly perhaps unrealistic] my experience is that his Bowel Tolerance would have gone up.
Owen wrote:I have often wondered if liposomal vitamin C had existed, whether that would have provided him with the vitamin C need to resist cardiovascular disease - but otherwise, he could not tolerate.
I also would love to know that!
Owen wrote:I don't know the situation with the scientist, but getting a scientist to agree to take 5000 mg of vitamin C is quite an accomplishment! Given the gas/diarrhea issues, I would not expect the idea of following in your footsteps to always be appealing.
Point well taken.
Owen wrote:But the effects of the addition of about 5 g of lysine is always astounding to me...that 5 grams of lysine can reverse this condition in 30 days!)
Yes, a valuable supplement. Did you also see the the post about the doctor that claims reversal of CVD with arginine [I think solely]? Me, I am a believer in the universal applicability of electron therapy [a la Levy], so I can believe any substance that can provide the electrons in sufficient quantity will [ultimately] work.
Owen wrote:...Pauling... did say to "reverse" heart disease, you need lysine.
I wonder how he was able to come to that conclusion?
Owen wrote:Also, we make these "outrageous" recommendations here - very high amounts of vitamin C until diarrhea - but out in the real world, this advice is unlikely to be heeded without consent from a doctor...
Again, point well taken. I do tend to be a bit of an extremist [and an idealist (I suppose)]! I will [try and] keep your valid [and practical] points in mind more in the future [particularly when posting to new enquirers].
Owen wrote:And bowel tolerance - for stress and infection - does not seem to apply for chronic scurvy. Much lower dosages (usually much higher than people are taking) resolve chronic scurvy.
Well, okay. I just assume [perhaps incorrectly] that people would be interested in protecting themselves from all health maladies!

And thank you for the response, Owen,

David
Last edited by davids1 on Fri Apr 11, 2014 8:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
JFYI, I have ingested a Bowel Tolerance dose of ascorbic acid [via one gram tablets], in HEALTH, not illness [of which I have had virtually none], basically every day since 1994, amounting to [currently], on average, 75+ grams [daily], in 10 to 15 divided doses.

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Re: can she unclog her arteries?

Post Number:#18  Post by SL4ID3R » Fri Apr 11, 2014 8:30 am

You said you live in India - correct. If vitamin C tablets and lysine tablets are available, you may begin following Linus Pauling's protocol immediately. The first step is to determine how much vitamin C the woman can tolerate. If it is less then 10,000 mg then you should consider liposomal. (But it is not clear to me this woman's arteries are clogged from what I've read).

Consulting a physician is your prerogative, but don't expect them to be trained or knowledgeable about the value of vitamin C and lysine. Know that neither nutrient has any known toxic oral dose and neither vitamin C or lysine (currently) requires a prescription.

The value of Cardio-C is convenience (a drink instead of 10 or 20 pills) and it contains proline, another potent Lp(a) binding inhibitor, not specifically recommended by Pauling, but recommended by his associate Mathias Rath, MD. But you can probably obtain the primary anti-CVD effect with pills.




Thanks sir,

I have bought vit-c & zinc chewable tablets today its contents are:

ascorbic acid - 100mg
sodium ascrobate - 450mg
zinc sulphate monohydrate - 13.7mg
equivalent to 400mg ascrobic acid

Are these sufficient?
Is sodium ascrobate fine for her because sodium is not good for hypertension/heart?
http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/177519/is- ... rbate-safe
http://www.ehow.com/list_5993860_disadv ... source=ask
regards
sl

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Re: can she unclog her arteries?

Post Number:#19  Post by davids1 » Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:02 am

SL4ID3R wrote:I have bought vit-c & zinc chewable tablets today its contents are:

ascorbic acid - 100mg
sodium ascrobate - 450mg
zinc sulphate monohydrate - 13.7mg
equivalent to 400mg ascrobic acid

Are these sufficient?
Is sodium ascrobate fine for her because sodium is not good for hypertension/heart?
http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/177519/is- ... rbate-safe
http://www.ehow.com/list_5993860_disadv ... source=ask
regards
sl
Hi SL,

If you are unaware of it, perhaps you would like to know, that gram-for-gram, any mineral ascorbate [like sodium, for example] carries only-half the potency, i.e. electrons, as [compared with] ascorbic acid. Plus, with the tablets you purchased, it would seem she will be ingesting a tremendous amount, i.e. an excess, of zinc if she tries to reach very high levels of ascorbate ingestion [something (I for one) would recommend (she try and do)].

Just "grist for your mill," SL,

David
JFYI, I have ingested a Bowel Tolerance dose of ascorbic acid [via one gram tablets], in HEALTH, not illness [of which I have had virtually none], basically every day since 1994, amounting to [currently], on average, 75+ grams [daily], in 10 to 15 divided doses.

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Re: can she unclog her arteries?

Post Number:#20  Post by SL4ID3R » Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:18 am

Hi SL,

If you are unaware of it, perhaps you would like to know, that gram-for-gram, any mineral ascorbate [like sodium, for example] carries only-half the potency, i.e. electrons, as [compared with] ascorbic acid. Plus, with the tablets you purchased, it would seem she will be ingesting a tremendous amount, i.e. an excess, of zinc if she tries to reach very high levels of ascorbate ingestion [something (I for one) would recommend (she try and do)].

Just "grist for your mill," SL,

David


David sir,

I am totally unaware of it. Just found out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KIEoRbztyI

I'm just frustrated because I cant find the write product at the store. They have all the other human killing medicine but lack the availability of this here. Many I have asked most have no clue about lysin. They all give different things whats are most sold.

Please can you describe me few points buy which I could find the write product.

Regards
SL

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Re: can she unclog her arteries?

Post Number:#21  Post by ofonorow » Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:58 am

The issue of a possible zinc overload is real - but you can still use the pills in low doses - up to 2 or 3 to begin the therapy.

So at 3 pills - approx 1500 vitamin C and 45 mg zinc. No terrible.

The issue of the "electrons" is debatable (Dr. Bush prefers sodium ascorbate based on his retinal observations) and definitely the value of ascorbic acid is more of an issue fighting infections and/or detox. For heart disease, sodium ascorbate, at least in theory, should work.
Owen R. Fonorow
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American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year

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Re: can she unclog her arteries?

Post Number:#22  Post by davids1 » Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:01 am

SL4ID3R wrote:I'm just frustrated because I cant find the write product at the store. They have all the other human killing medicine but lack the availability of this here. Many I have asked most have no clue about lysin. They all give different things whats are most sold.

Please can you describe me few points buy which I could find the write product.

Regards
SL
Hi SL,

Orthomolecular "medicine" is not [relatively] well known, and certainly not promoted by the mainstream medical and pharmaceutical industries [who are actually in competition with/against it, for the very reason that "orthomolecular" substances are not patentable]. So do not be surprised that these products/substances are not readily available at your local retail outlets.

Online, you can find ascorbic acid powder/crystals [besides The Foundation] here http://www.msm-msm.com/store/agora.cgi? ... QgodPBYAgA

The tablets [online] can be ordered here http://www.costco.com/Kirkland-Signatur ... 15954.html [the product I personally take] or here http://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson- ... g-250-caps [a product I have used occasionally over the past 20 years].

Although I have never ingested lysine [supplementally], I know it can be ordered in both powder/crystal form and tablet form from many sources online.

Some experimentation and a "learning curve," SL, are inevitable in any [worthwhile] undertaking. Just keep reading and asking questions, and it will gradually become clearer [and easier to see what works best for you, both belief-wise and health-wise]. Unfortunately, as you are starting to see, just like with most things, it is rarely a "black-and-white" issue!

I hope this helps,

David
JFYI, I have ingested a Bowel Tolerance dose of ascorbic acid [via one gram tablets], in HEALTH, not illness [of which I have had virtually none], basically every day since 1994, amounting to [currently], on average, 75+ grams [daily], in 10 to 15 divided doses.

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Re: can she unclog her arteries?

Post Number:#23  Post by Saw » Fri Apr 11, 2014 8:53 pm

Even a Blind Squirrel makes his own vitamin C.

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Re: can she unclog her arteries?

Post Number:#24  Post by ofonorow » Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:31 am

Repeating another discussion - scurvy is a vitamin C deficiency, not an electron deficiency. All forms of ascorbate (L- D- LD- DL- ) donate the same number of electrons but only L-ascorbate cures scurvy. According to Linus Pauling and his associates, heart disease is chronic scurvy.
Owen R. Fonorow
HeartCURE.Info
American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year

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Re: can she unclog her arteries?

Post Number:#25  Post by davids1 » Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:59 am

ofonorow wrote:...scurvy is a vitamin C deficiency, not an electron deficiency. All forms of ascorbate (L- D- LD- DL- ) donate the same number of electrons but only L-ascorbate cures scurvy. According to Linus Pauling and his associates, heart disease is chronic scurvy.
My view, Owen [although I certainly could be wrong], is that when Pauling said/wrote that, he meant sub-clinical scurvy [vs. frank/outright, clinical scurvy], i.e. that heart disease is [caused by] sub-clinical scurvy. My view [and I believe Dr. Levy agrees] would be [although I may be wrong] that while only L-ascorbate cures "frank, clinical scurvy," anything that can [healthfully/safely] provide enough electrons, will ameliorate the symptoms of, and/or cure, all of the myriad of diseases caused, either directly or indirectly, by sub-clinical scurvy [which I believe to be nothing more than a shortage of electrons]. I simply believe [as far as I have found so far] that ascorbate is the best [if not the only] supplemental source of those "extra" electrons [that can be ingested in large enough, i.e. therapeutic, doses, over a long enough, i.e. (ideally) a lifetime, period of time].

Just my viewpoint and "two cents worth,"

David
JFYI, I have ingested a Bowel Tolerance dose of ascorbic acid [via one gram tablets], in HEALTH, not illness [of which I have had virtually none], basically every day since 1994, amounting to [currently], on average, 75+ grams [daily], in 10 to 15 divided doses.

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Re: can she unclog her arteries?

Post Number:#26  Post by ofonorow » Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:52 am

I think we should move this discussion into its own topic - and will - instead of it being fragmented in several topics. I'll respond more i the new topic.

I will say here that I used the term "chronic" scurvy, as opposed to acute or frank scurvy. There is an argument that because chronic scurvy is not recognized, it is "sub clinical" scurvy. But any form of scurvy is usually an L-ascorbate deficiency - not an electron deficiency, per se.
Owen R. Fonorow
HeartCURE.Info
American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year

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Re: can she unclog her arteries?

Post Number:#27  Post by davids1 » Wed Apr 16, 2014 12:35 pm

ofonorow wrote:But any form of scurvy is usually an L-ascorbate deficiency - not an electron deficiency, per se.
Perhaps you are correct, although I have never read anything [primarily Cathcart, Levy, Klenner, Kalokerinos, and Stone] along those lines, one-way-or-the-other.
JFYI, I have ingested a Bowel Tolerance dose of ascorbic acid [via one gram tablets], in HEALTH, not illness [of which I have had virtually none], basically every day since 1994, amounting to [currently], on average, 75+ grams [daily], in 10 to 15 divided doses.

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Re: can she unclog her arteries?

Post Number:#28  Post by ofonorow » Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:04 am

Always stimulating. The definition of scurvy is a lack of vitamin C, or rather, vitamin C is that nutrient when missing leads to scurvy. But since you issued a challenge and we have Stone's book online,
http://vitamincfoundation.org/stone/ch1-11/chap1-11.htm#C9
about 4/5 down, I thought you might like this Stone quote!

Irwin Stone wrote:On a molecular basis, the whole living process is nothing more than an orderly flow and transfer of electrons. Therefore, having an abundance of a substance like ascorbic acid present in living matter makes this orderly flow and transfer of electrons proceed with greater ease and facility. It acts substantially like an oil for the machinery of life. This was discovered by Nature billions of years ago. Recent work indicates that this oxidation-reduction system can form even more active free radicals which may explain some of its unusual biological effects.


and then Dr. Stone informs us what causes scurvy in the next paragraph:
Irwin Stone wrote:One of the most important biochemical functions of ascorbic acid in the body's chemistry is the synthesis, formation, and maintenance of a proteinlike substance called collagen. Collagen cannot be formed without ascorbic acid, which is absolutely essential to collagen production by the body. Collagen is the body's most important structural substance. It is the ground substance, or cement, that supports and holds the tissues and organs together. It is the substance in the bones that provides the toughness and flexibility and prevents brittleness. Without it the body would just disintegrate or dissolve away. It comprises about one-third of the body's total weight of protein and is the most extensive tissue system. it is the substance that strengthens the arteries and veins, supports the muscles, toughens the ligaments and bones, supplies the scar tissue for healing wounds and keeps the youthful skin tissues soft, firm, supple and wrinkle free. When ascorbic acid is lacking, it is the disturbance in collagen formation that causes the fearful effects of scurvy -- the brittle bones that fracture on the slightest impact, the weakened arteries that rupture and hemorrhage, the incapacitating muscle weakness, the affected joints that are too painful to move, the teeth that fall out, and the wounds and sores that never heal. Suboptimal amounts of ascorbic acid over prolonged periods during the early and middle years, by its effect of producing poor quality collagen, may be the factor in later life that causes the high incidence of arthritis and joint diseases, broken hips, the heart and vascular diseases that cause sudden death, and the strokes that bring on senility. Collagen is intimately connected with the entire aging process.
Owen R. Fonorow
HeartCURE.Info
American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year

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Re: can she unclog her arteries?

Post Number:#29  Post by davids1 » Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:40 pm

Hi SL,

The following is from a PM to me from eDoc [a medical doctor]. This may be of interest to you as "grist for your mill:"
Couldn't resist reading the post by a new member SL about his aunt.

Answer to ALL her symptoms is the following:

1. Oral VC . 4grams every 2-4 hrs.

2. Lysine. 500-1000 mg 3 times.

3. Oral DSMO for 1 week.

4. IV DSMO at least 20 IVs.

That shall take care of all her issues like clogging, cardiac function improvement, Gastritis GI issues, Blood Pressure etc.

Eventually would not need any prescriptive meds for BP, Blood thinning etc, plus shall unclog the blocked coronaries.
I hope this helps, SL.

Best wishes,

David
JFYI, I have ingested a Bowel Tolerance dose of ascorbic acid [via one gram tablets], in HEALTH, not illness [of which I have had virtually none], basically every day since 1994, amounting to [currently], on average, 75+ grams [daily], in 10 to 15 divided doses.


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