Is there a lysine/arginine antagonism?

[ofonorow]

If I am taking cardio c can that have a negative effect on me also taking arginine supplement?
I read that the two work against each other lysine and arginine
Thank you

Over the years we have been trying to track down the nature of the "antagonism," and if you have any references, I would appreciate them.

I do know that protein foods, e.g. chicken, contain both the amino acids arginine and lysine.

I also know that vitamin C and lysine can rapidly reverse heart disease - without arginine. (This is apparently based on lysine binding sites on the Lp(a) molecule).

I myself tried a high arginine regimen for 3 months last summer, with no apparent result - one way or the other. I personally think of arginine for helping dilate the arteries, not reversing heart disease.

But as far as the "antagonism" the best explanation I've heard (at a trade show) was action inside the cell - at the level of the DNA. Supposedly the reason than lysine can help fight viruses is it causes DNA to coil, and argnine to uncoil. Don't know if this is true, but there does seem to be an interaction visa vis viral infection.

I do not know of any negative reaction fighting chronic scurvy - aka heart disease.

[ofonorow]

[weldo]

This thread interests me. My naturopath, who is generally supportive of the Pauling Therapy, mentioned her concern that "lysine inhibits arginine" - a strong vasco dilator and increases production of nitric oxide. So, I would obviously NOT want to reduce arginine in my system! Owen are you saying that research the "lysine inhibits arginine" is not convincing?

[purposefirst]

Weldo,
I started Pauling Therapy (10-12 gms vit C, 6 gms lysine, 1 gm proline, per day) 9 months ago and added arginine (2-3 gms/day) 8 months ago.
I've had good steady improvement in my coronary atherosclerosis, as evidenced by almost complete disappearance of angina at this point in time. I do fairly advanced aerobics and weightlifting regularly (although I'm 73) which benefits and also serves as a way of monitoring progress. My doc is amazed at my progress.

So I would say it is unlikely that there is antagonism between lysine and arginine.

[ofonorow]

Thank you purposefirst for the report, as that would be my expectation - that adding arginine would probably benefit and not "antagonize" lysine.

As per factoids, http://vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11457&p=36996&hilit=muscle+and+arginine#p36996 people on weight loss diets usually lose muscle - and arginine supplement completely blocks this muscle depletion effect.

I see no problem adding arginine, but I don't believe that it can substitute for lysine (or proline) w/r to heart disease and Lp(a) binding.

[weldo]

Thanks for the responses.
I think her point is that taking lysine can inhibit the production/reduce efficacy of arginine that is naturally produced by the body; not that the two shouldn't be taken together. I have asked her for more information and will keep you posted.

[ofonorow]

[johnyascorbate]

I'm taking high doses of arginine(12 grams) along with citrulline(6 grams) everyday, to see if there are any benefits. I am currently not on the pauling therapy. My only concern, since I'm not supplementing with lysine, is that this may cause a lysine deficiency. I've tried searching the literature but have not found any human studies talking about this, only animal studies, and the results are inconsistent. Does anyone at the foundation know for certain if large doses of arginine and citrulline will cause a lysine deficiency? Thanks in advance for your help!

[ofonorow]

I'm taking high doses of arginine(12 grams) along with citrulline(6 grams) everyday, to see if there are any benefits. I am currently not on the pauling therapy. My only concern, since I'm not supplementing with lysine, is that this may cause a lysine deficiency. I've tried searching the literature but have not found any human studies talking about this, only animal studies, and the results are inconsistent. Does anyone at the foundation know for certain if large doses of arginine and citrulline will cause a lysine deficiency? Thanks in advance for your help!

Interesting. Please keep us informed! ( This is something that interests me, but something that I would never advise.)

When you say your are not "on the Pauling Therapy" that means you are not taking lysine, right, not that your are also off vitamin C!? If you stopped vitamin C please check in often

There are obvious benefits from increased arginine - none of which are likely to reverse existing cardiovascular disease. The basis of the Pauling therapy are the lysine binding sites on the Lp(a) molecule (and later the Proline binding sites that were discovered after Pauling's death at the Univ. of Chicago.) I am unaware of "arginine binding sites" that would allow for the same plaque reversal effects that are seen with vitamin C and lysine (and proline)

As I mentioned at this forum, 2 summers ago, I went through a very high arginine regimen with a local chiropractor - and while I did somewhat better on her "tests" I really didn't notice anything from the experiment. (I continued my lysine)

[johnyascorbate]

I've been on the high dose arginine/citrulline for about 9 weeks now. My circulation and blood pressure have improved greatly. I have also struggled with high liver enzymes for 4 years and a blood test about 1 week ago has shown my ALT that has been elevated is now completely normal. Because of this i have no intention of stopping the arginine and citrulline anytime soon. I am still taking vitamin c and I've also added a few grams of lysine, just in case the high doses of arginine decrease lysine. I found this study which does state that arginine is a precursor to proline and a few other things. High doses of Arginine/citrulline can only benefit the body. So far I am very happy with the results. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2090123210000573

[ofonorow]

[johnyascorbate]

[ofonorow]

Multiple animal studies have shown an antagonism where large doses of arginine lowered lysine levels.

References would be nice and I wonder what the theory is? Arginine "destroys" lysine? Arginine leads to the excretion of lysine? Arginine makes the body require more lysine?

[johnyascorbate]

Here is one source. I had read another one involving pigs a while back, but I'm unable to locate it at the time of writing this post. http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1679&context=animalscifacpub

[ofonorow]

Yes, had heard that lysine is routinely given to live stock to "fatten them up for slaughter." So this looks to be an investigation of how arginine impacts the equation, but I did notice in the first part:

The inability of lysine supplementation to alleviate any of the adverse effects of excess arginine in young swine indicates that the reduced performance is caused by a generalized amino acid imbalance, and not by a specific interference with lysine utilization in the manner of a classical arginine-lysine antagonism.

It is the "classical arginine-lysine antagonism" that is of interest.

Perhaps related, during my current telomere textbook reading, DNA does coil, as do the telomeres themselves and in fact it can be important to gene expression, and it is mentioned that arginine and lysine are involved even at the level of the DNA inside the nucleus, so perhaps there is something to the "antagonism" is down to the level of the nucleus?