Allay my Fears..... Please

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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lolex
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Allay my Fears..... Please

Post Number:#1  Post by lolex » Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:00 pm

Background / Context

About a month ago, my Doctor referred me to a Cardiologist to have a stress echocardiogram. I disagreed with this… all I wanted from him was a certificate to say I was fit to use the Gymnasium at work and apart from being unfit, I was in good health. He won… I went, and a good job too.

On checking my resting heart function the ultrasound expert told me ‘You’ve had a heart attack’. ‘No’ I replied, I have not. Well, she was right, based on the evidence, but having searched my memory I have no recall of chest, arm, neck etc pain and no memory of having a dizzy spell or feeling unwell without reason (ie flu) during the last 5 years or so.

My stress echo also showed indications of poor blood flow to two areas of heart muscle. No angina, but definitely, Not Good !!
The Cardiologist put me on Atenolol and Clopidogrel, in addition to the Zanidip and Coversyl that I was already taking for high (but well managed <140 SP) Blood Pressure. (I’m not taking the Statin she prescribed).
She wrote to the local ‘Heart Hospital’ requesting that I get an angiogram asap. I still haven’t heard from them after 3 weeks. But that doesn’t worry me now I’ve found Pauling Therapy.

Fortunately, my immediate response to this unwelcome news was to research on the net. And I somehow stumbled across Pauling Therapy and your site on the first or second day.

Since then, I’ve been taking around 18 grams of Vitamin C (including 1 sachet Liposomal Vitamin C), 6 grams of Lysine and 2 grams of Proline every day for the last 3 weeks.

I also take Seanol, CoQ10, Vitamin D (5,000IU), plus 5 grams of each of organic Sunflower and Flaxseed Oils plus 1 gram of Evening Primrose Oil. I plan to add Kyolic Garlic to this regimen (based on the research I just put in my first post).

Hmmm…I nearly forgot… I’ve cut my smoking down from 30-a-day to 10-a-day. That is the source of my problems, I’m sure… together with a low intake of Vitamin C for years (I don’t eat much fruit & veggies, I’m embarrassed to say.)

Allay my Fears


If someone can, I’d be grateful if they can advise me on two questions that really cause me worry. I feel like I’m a ticking time bomb and I half expect to keel-over, dead, anytime.

• First, with high Vitamin C healing the underlying arterial lesions and Lysine ‘unplugging’ the Cholesterol… isn’t there a heightened chance of a chunk of plaque just peeling away, causing a premature and fatal blockage??

• Second, am I overdoing the supplements? Am I thinning my blood too much through Sunflower, Flaxseed and Evening Primrose Oils together with the Clopidogrel, thereby creating conditions likely to give me a stroke, internal bleeding or similar??

Thanks in advance…. this is a great little Community….

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Re: Allay my Fears..... Please

Post Number:#2  Post by pamojja » Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:23 am

Welcome lolex,

I see the same pattern unfolding in your case. When I was diagnosed a 80% blockage at the abdominal aorta bifurcation almost 6 years ago, my diagnosing internist telling that I could eat as much greens and make lifestyle changes I want, that would change nothing about my 30% chance of dieing within the next 5 years, usual for someone with my condition. With such a irritating perspectives my condition got first of all really worse.

Immediately before I had quit a job, where I knew from the beginning 2 years before I would have to, unless I'm able to somehow alleviate the constant stress present there, and which I haven't been. But now with this diagnosis and despite quiting the job, to smoke and doing daily walking exercises, my condition really got worse with all that additional super-stress: thereby decreasing my pain-free walking distance down to mere 3-400 meters.

For the first period I had divorce myself from every so unhelpful, not at all trained in preventive medicine physicians - and with a lot of faith in Paulings therapy I did make the progress - conventional medicine knows nothing about, unless using invasive surgery - by increasing pain-free walking distance to about 1 hour. Which made all the difference of having a life to me again.

2 years later 2 hours. But then came an impase. And searching the web further, reading countless contradictory studies and articles, in the context of my condition increasing stress again, my progress regressed again down to 1/2 hour, together with a severe chronic bronchitis.

Now I really needed a break, which I took at the sea-side in a laid-back country, which was dear to me from earlier years - a break from any kind stress, be it occupational or medicinal.

You seem already intuitively aware what a huge factor stress plays with CVD:

Hmmm…I nearly forgot… I’ve cut my smoking down from 30-a-day to 10-a-day. That is the source of my problems, I’m sure… together with a low intake of Vitamin C for years (I don’t eat much fruit & veggies, I’m embarrassed to say.)
Allay my Fears


It's too serious a condition with too many possible co-factors, you at least have to research and look into deeply first:

Fear or stress make you adrenals work over-hours, that will have a deteriorating impact to your thyroid. Or your thyroid was already weak and brought you the other way around to the same effect. Whichever way, cholesterol has a difficult time to improve unless thyroids working optimally. I could recommend the book from http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/ since it covers many aspects of thyroid/adrenal health from a patients level and is a good introduction to that.

Vitamin C is already really important for adrenal health, but to a lesser degree are all other essential nutrients for improving. However, for some of them you have to check, and if your doc doesn't agree to do these tests, by using private labs: RBC (red blood cell) Magnesium, 25(OH)D3. Cholesterol test doesn't tell you much about your real risk, LDL-p, small LDL, Apo-B and Lp(a) would give you a much preciser picture. Beside Homocystein, Fibrinogen, ESR and hsCRP for a beginning. Also get your fasting, as well as 1 hour postprandial blood glucose tested, further HBA1c, Insulin, liver and kidney function (in my case I couldn't get my cholesterol much better before improving from a NAFlD). Knowledge is power and that could also help dispel fear.

• First, with high Vitamin C healing the underlying arterial lesions and Lysine ‘unplugging’ the Cholesterol… isn’t there a heightened chance of a chunk of plaque just peeling away, causing a premature and fatal blockage??

• Second, am I overdoing the supplements? Am I thinning my blood too much through Sunflower, Flaxseed and Evening Primrose Oils together with the Clopidogrel, thereby creating conditions likely to give me a stroke, internal bleeding or similar??


    There is a chance of a chunk of plaque just peeling away. And we don't know the extent vitamin C and lysine could prevent that. Depends on plaque-stability and many other things. That's what you're probing into by taking all the lab-tests described above, which could give you better indications of your risk and what to do about.
    In my case only a baby aspirin gives me internal bleeding, none of the many more nutritional I take. I would recommend you to take Omega-3 fish oil, instead of Omega-6 oils (except the GLA), which we already get to much from diet.

Enough for now and a starting place,

The very best.

pamojja
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Re: Allay my Fears..... Please

Post Number:#3  Post by pamojja » Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:48 am

See also the remaining suggestions for Paulings therapy:

viewtopic.php?p=35564#p35564

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Re: Allay my Fears..... Please

Post Number:#4  Post by tjohnson_nb » Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:07 am

Hi Lolex - welcome! I see you are taking 18 g of C a day so did you just pick that number at random. I try and approach bowel tolerance every day and currently take >30 g a day. Bowel tolerance is really the only way we know if we are getting all we can use - at least using pills or powder.

AFAIK, Pauling Therapy would tend to dissolve plaque not "break it off" - after all, it is a chemical reaction not a mechanical action. IMO Pauling Therapy would be the least dangerous of treatments for plaque buildup.
'Always' and 'never' are 2 words you should always remember never to use.

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Re: Allay my Fears..... Please

Post Number:#5  Post by davids1 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:24 am

As usual, TJ, well said!
JFYI, I have ingested a Bowel Tolerance dose of ascorbic acid [via one gram tablets], in HEALTH, not illness [of which I have had virtually none], basically every day since 1994, amounting to [currently], on average, 75+ grams [daily], in 10 to 15 divided doses.

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Re: Allay my Fears..... Please

Post Number:#6  Post by lolex » Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:26 pm

tjohnson_nb wrote:Hi Lolex - welcome! I see you are taking 18 g of C a day so did you just pick that number at random.


Thanks for the feedback everyone... I picked 18gms as it was the higher limit in the Pauling Therapy Recommendations, and before I'd read about titrating to bowel tolerance. I guess this is near my limit because this level makes me fart (which I don't usually do) and its given me the squitts on a couple of occasions.

I might try increasing it but I don't want to get caught short on the Bus or at a Meeting.

Cheers for now....

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Re: Allay my Fears..... Please

Post Number:#7  Post by davids1 » Wed Jul 16, 2014 8:25 am

Hi Lolex,

Yes, it does indeed sound like you are near your current Bowel Tolerance limit.

I assume you are familiar with Dr. Cathcart's "Titrating to Bowel Tolerance" article? If not, I encourage you to read at least the first ten paragraphs of it http://vitamincfoundation.org/www.ortho ... itrate.htm. My only recommendation to you [if you want the very best of health possible] is to continue to press your Bowel Tolerance limit forward/upward [as your circumstances allow].

Over the past 20 years, I have seen my Bowel Tolerance limit go from a starting limit of 10 to 15 grams per day, to my current Bowel Tolerance limit of 75 to 100 grams per day. I believe this is primarily because I have cleaned up/out my GI tract. The results to me have been no sickness, no doctors, no drugs [all-the-while growing older (I am just shy of 65)].

Just my viewpoint as "grist for your mill."

Best wishes, Lolex,

David
JFYI, I have ingested a Bowel Tolerance dose of ascorbic acid [via one gram tablets], in HEALTH, not illness [of which I have had virtually none], basically every day since 1994, amounting to [currently], on average, 75+ grams [daily], in 10 to 15 divided doses.

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Re: Allay my Fears..... Please

Post Number:#8  Post by lolex » Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:06 pm

Well, I've survived so far.... so I guess Johnson-nb's on track with his response that "AFAIK, Pauling Therapy would tend to dissolve plaque not "break it off" - after all, it is a chemical reaction not a mechanical action".

I'd be very interested if anyone has some facts or information, references on this.

I'm on leave for four weeks very soon and when I get back I'm in for an Angiogram.

It'll be interesting to see what they find.

I feel as healthy as ever did over the last 5 years or so. In fact the Vitamin C seems to have given me more 'energy' and sharpened my mind... I don't think that I'm imagining that.

Cheers for now !

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Re: Allay my Fears..... Please

Post Number:#9  Post by tjohnson_nb » Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:15 am

Owen started a thread here Lolex viewtopic.php?f=11&t=9970
It has a link to a good article about Pauling Therapy
'Always' and 'never' are 2 words you should always remember never to use.

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Re: Allay my Fears..... Please

Post Number:#10  Post by ofonorow » Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:23 am

Sorry for reading this late Lolex and from what you told us, I think your regimen is ideal. (You are also a good reader and comprehend what you read!)

And I always have a bone to pick with those who recommend "bowel tolerance" for heart disease (CVD). My father's "bowel tolerance was between 200 and 400 mg daily, and he died to young from a massive heart attack. 18 grams of ordinary ascorbic acid should be sufficient in 95% of the population to reverse heart disease using Pauling's method., (Now if you have a higher tolerance, and it doesn't sound like you do, the Cathcart table would be useful to help identify what else is going on. Say toxic dental work...)

To your questions.


Lolex wrote:Allay my Fears

If someone can, I’d be grateful if they can advise me on two questions that really cause me worry. I feel like I’m a ticking time bomb and I half expect to keel-over, dead, anytime.

• First, with high Vitamin C healing the underlying arterial lesions and Lysine ‘unplugging’ the Cholesterol… isn’t there a heightened chance of a chunk of plaque just peeling away, causing a premature and fatal blockage??

• Second, am I overdoing the supplements? Am I thinning my blood too much through Sunflower, Flaxseed and Evening Primrose Oils together with the Clopidogrel, thereby creating conditions likely to give me a stroke, internal bleeding or similar??

Thanks in advance…. this is a great little Community….


Lets try to answer the second (easier) question first. The beauty of the orthomolecular concept, a term coined by Linus Pauling and explained in his book HOW TO LIVE LONGER AND FEEL BETTER (1986) is that taking substances that are known to the body (e.g. vitamin C, amino acids, etc.) is safe and surprisingly effective in higher dosages. Pauling contrasts these substances with "toximolecular" substances, i.e. pharmaceutical drugs that have been changed, even slightly, so as to be patentable. Generally these substances can only be safely taken in small dosages. You should know (or be reminded) that there are no known toxic dosages for oral vitamin C or lysine. There is no oral LDL50 - the Lethal Dose Level that kills half (50%) the lab rates in these toxicity studies. Arguably water is more dangerous than vitamin C if taken in extraordinarily large amounts.

The first issue is tougher, as you know, this therapy has not been studied (or at least any results published) so we rely on anecdotal evidence - such as reports at this forum. Dr. Matthias Rath, the primary associate of Linus Pauling w/r to the Pauling vitamin C/lysine therapy, says that Lp(a) binding inhibitors release Lp(a)-plaques from the arterial wall - molecule by molecule.

We have no reports of anyone on the therapy who experienced a massive release of plaque from the therapy, almost everyone reports feeling and getting better.

My own anecdote: In the beginning (circa 1994) we were worried about the same thing, plaques breaking off and causing a stroke, so we were not very vocal, esp. among our relatives, about what Pauling had invented. Then a relative of Mike Till, former head of the Foundation, had heart surgery. This relative (Till's brother-in-law) died on the operating table as a piece of plaque did give way during the surgery and reached his brain.

At that point we had some experience with Pauling's therapy, all positive, and decided that medical procedures are just or more dangerous, and that the PT could not be any worse or more risky than undergoing heart surgery, and the rest, as they say, is history. No guarantees, but it might be prudent to take it easy for the first 30-60 days, at least until the "elevated" cholesterol readings return to normal. (Elevated cholesterol seems to be a byproduct of Lp(a) inhibitors pulling cholesterol (molecule by molecule) from the arterial walls.
Owen R. Fonorow
HeartCURE.Info
American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year


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