Blood test: lpa 145, tot chol 285, was Cardio-C right to buy

[ofonorow]

Hello,
I hope that you can help me. I recently had blood test from Boston Heart. Some good and some not so good results, worst ones being Lp-a - 145, ApoB - 124, CRP 2.2, Total Cholesterol 285…… You get the picture. The good news is that I have very good HDL-C - 123, Triglyceride - 93, ApoA - 280. So it is quite a mix. Ratios are pretty good. The most alarming one to me was Lp-a. Dr scheduled a carotid artery test but I have not received results from the test - 2 weeks so I might be jumping the gun here. (I doubt it as there is a pretty good history of heart disease in my family. I am 53 year old female - 5'7" - 154 lbs (would like to shed 10 lbs) and not interested in taking statins. My doctor has me on red yeast rice, vit d3, b-12, b complex, progesterone, armor thyroid, I take on my own several things including vitamin c, K2, d-limonene, magnesium, selenium. Ok, now to the reason for my email. I stumbled upon your cardio-c googling Lp-a treatment and was amazed with the testimonies. I ordered a 4 month supply and it has been shipped. I am wondering if this was the right thing to order. On Pauling Therapy website I found other heart formulas. Do you feel based on my results that I have ordered the right thing? I also, read on there that if you are cured and stop taking it you could have a heart attack within 6 months. What does this mean? Did I read that right. Please help me as I am desperate to help myself from the all the pharmaceutical drugs and procedures. I have seen my mother waste away from all of it. Any help will be greatly appreciated and I look forward to hearing from you. Arlene

In my opinion, you made an excellent choice (assuming the Lp(a) units are mg/dl). With Lp(a) that high you need the Pauling/Rath invention, so-called Lp(a) binding inhibitors - vitamin C, lysine (and proline). These nutrients in high enough amounts will strengthen your arteries, and as Linus Pauling claimed, reduce the chance of plaque buildup and even reverse it.

With those number I would start with at least 2, maybe 3 servings of cardio-C per day. The Lp(a) numbers are somewhat unreliable (the FDA allows labs to compute rather than measure - i.e. guess Lp(a)) but the total cholesterol of 285 tells the story. With the optimal amount of vitamin C, your numbers will drop towards 180 mg/dl. It may require over a year for the Lp(a) to come down, and we are not sure about total cholesterol. Please keep us informed.

Note: There is little difference between red yeast rice and statin drugs. Both can lower cholesterol, but also lower CoQ10. Here is an interesting article called the hidden truth about choleterol lowering drugs: http://www.thepeopleschemist.com/cholesterol.pdf

Taking vitamin C/lysine doesn't increase your risk of heart attack - stopping taking them only returns the person who is feeling well to the condition before they started vitamin C, which seems to inevitably lead to heart attack. So don't stop taking your vitamin C.

[Saw]

Taking vitamin C/lysine doesn't increase your risk of heart attack - stopping taking them only returns the person who is feeling well to the condition before they started vitamin C, which seems to inevitably lead to heart attack. So don't stop taking your vitamin C.

Is this statement not false?
If true, I read this as P-therapy does not remove plaque and only maintains the status quo.

[pamojja]

Taking vitamin C/lysine doesn't increase your risk of heart attack - stopping taking them only returns the person who is feeling well to the condition before they started vitamin C, which seems to inevitably lead to heart attack. So don't stop taking your vitamin C.

Is this statement not false?
If true, I read this as P-therapy does not remove plaque and only maintains the status quo.

There are hardly any studies with nutraceuticals indicating plaque could be removed. What is known is that arterial plaque - even despite the standard care of statins and blood thinners - increases at about 30% per annum. No need to be a good mathematician to recognize such a exponential growth a imminent catastrophe.

Then arterial plaque is a amalgam of lipids and calcification, and though the calcification part of plaque can be measured by CAC score, very often in the initial years of treatment with nurtraceuticals that measure CAC it still increases, and could be interpreted as a sign of stabilization by calcification of more instable soft plaque.

All what we do know from clinical experience of docs who routinely use CAC score is that already a yearly increase in the range of 10-15% means a substantial slow down of the inevitable, and if one is to believe them, a grow rate upper limit where hardly any life-treating events occur.

Then there are indeed a few who experience even an decrease in CAC, but they are rare indeed. And I haven't even anecdotally heard of an exclusive Paulings Therapy user testing his success with something like CAC score.

But if Paulings Therapy indeed maintained the status quo: Zero CAC growth per year. Already then it would be marvelous thing pharmaceutical medicine knows nothing about, except the often in vain invasive operative interventions.

[ofonorow]

Taking vitamin C/lysine doesn't increase your risk of heart attack - stopping taking them only returns the person who is feeling well to the condition before they started vitamin C, which seems to inevitably lead to heart attack. So don't stop taking your vitamin C.

Is this statement not false?
If true, I read this as P-therapy does not remove plaque and only maintains the status quo.

I don't under the confusion? We warn that people who stop taking vitamin C seem to have a recurrence (heart attack) in about six months. It is not that starting vitamin C/lysine that creates this issue, rather, it is stopping the. vitamin C/lysine. However, I now see that this advice is too broad and should only be extended to people with severe CVD before they began taking vitamin C (difficulty walking across the room, multiple heart attacks, etc. The people we describe helping in our book) .

We have countless examples of people who have reversed their heart disease, (http://practicingmedicinewithoutalicense.com/#TESTIMONY) much of it from optometrist Sydney Bush's CardioRetinometry - evidence from pcitures of the microscopic retinal arteries. He watches to formation of "atheromas" in these arteries - and their dissappearce. Dr. Bush noted that calcification's can take up to a year to reverse.

[pamojja]

We have countless examples of people who have reversed their heart disease, (http://practicingmedicinewithoutalicense.com/#TESTIMONY) much of it from optometrist Sydney Bush's CardioRetinometry - evidence from pcitures of the microscopic retinal arteries. He watches to formation of "atheromas" in these arteries - and their dissappearce. Dr. Bush noted that calcification's can take up to a year to reverse.

I agree that the disappearance of calcification in the eye can be a sign of reversal in calcification. However, I now don't believe that the Centimeters of calcified plaque (up to 80% of my abdominal aorta just above its bifurcation diagnosed 6 years ago) are that easily cleared like the one from microscopic arteries.

Used my recent visit to an optometrist to inquire about calcification of my arteries in the eye but he couldn't find even a trace - though the stenosis at my abdominal aorta still has the same extent! Which doesn't must mean much more than if microscopic calcifications already need up to a year to clear, centimeters may take many more years than humans are given.

Also my CIMT has increased from 1.3mm to 1.5 within 2 years. But then I also don't give to much credibility to those measurement of living and pulsating organic matter. For example, my ABI has been the worst when my pain-free walking distance (from intermittent claudication) has been the best, and vis-versa (300 meter versus 2 hours).

Here is my take on "growing new arteries" (johnwen?). Medical doctors and cardiologists are taught that atherosclerotic plaques are irreversible. They only grow, narrowing the arteries. So if greater blood flow is detected, they need something to explain it and have borrowed "angiogenesis" from cancer research to explain the increased blood flow. I just think this is hogwash and the increased blood flow is simply the reversal of CVD (narrowing/plaques) in the existing arteries.

I try to imagine how an artery would grow? It would be quite a trick, as there would either be a lot of internal bleeding, or something would "puncture" it after it somehow attached to its end point. ( I think we know (thank you John Beard) that cancers obtain blood using an enzyme (like trypsin) that eats through tissue, like the early placenta (trophoblast) "eats" through the uterus (womb) to obtain blood for the fetus.)

So how could I explain the vast improvement of my pain-free walking distance, since the extent of my main stenosis remained exactly the same?

I think there are many factors, but one could be angiogenesis. Take for example this MRI pic taken at my diagnosis:



At my last sonography I saw for the first time the 2 small arteries branching off just above the stenosis extending with each pulse much more than ever before. Therefore I have do assume these to have overtaken at least some of the workload of the main.

[Lone Dog]

I don't see how the PT can be said to reverse your heart disease if you stop taking it and have a heart attack six months later. The two points are not compatible. Surely the plaque can't grow back that fast.

Maybe the heart attack happens because the PT has only been relaxing/dilating the arteries and not clearing the plaque, and stopping the PT then causes that effect to fade, putting extra stress on the heart.

[pamojja]

Again, there aren't studies that unequivocally show regression. But there is for example this:

Full Study: http://www.straighttoyourheart.ca/files ... -study.pdf

ABSTRACT: The aim of this study was to determine the effect of a defined nutritional
supplement program on the natural progression of coronary artery disease. This nutritional
supplement program was composed of vitamins, amino acids, minerals, and trace elements,
including a combination of essential nutrients patented for use in the prevention and reversal of
cardiovascular disease. The study was designed as a prospective intervention before-after trial
over a 12 month period and included 55 patients (age 44-67) with various stages of coronary heart disease. Changes in the progression of coronary artery calcification before and during the
nutritional supplement intervention were determined by Ultrafast Computed Tomography
(Ultrafast CT). The natural progression rate of coronary artery calcification before the
intervention averaged 44% per year. The progression of coronary artery calcification decreased on average 15% over the course of one year of nutritional supplementation. In a subgroup of patients with early stages of coronary artery disease, a statistically significant decrease occurred, and no further progression of coronary calcification was observed. In individual cases, reversal and complete disappearance of previously existing coronary calcifications were documented.

They decreased in average from 44 down to 29% yearly progression after 1 year.

I don't see how the PT can be said to reverse your heart disease if you stop taking it and have a heart attack six months later. The two points are not compatible. Surely the plaque can't grow back that fast.

I believe that plaque can be stabilized that fast and growth dwarfed by neutraceuticals. With the discontinuity of that same nutrients instability and growth just commences as before. No contradiction (unless one believes Pauling Therapy would miraculously remove all plaque).

Heart attack happen when plaque is instable, ruptures and the clotting to close that wound in the arterial wall inadvertently blocks the blood flow to some areas of the heart.

Or in my case, with peripheral arterial disease the worst case scenario would be that such a blood clot would block circulation to parts of my legs - and if not operatively removed fast enough - the amputation.

[Lone Dog]

(unless one believes Pauling Therapy would miraculously remove all plaque).

I must say I thought that was the point of it. Isn't that what everyone back to Linus Pauling himself have been saying?

[ofonorow]

Re: relapse: We report what happened in multiple cases of severe CVD, people who could not walk across the room and were told to prepare their wills (e.g. Carol Smith). The Pauling Therapy returned them to normal.. and after a time (in Carol's case, bad advise from a nutritionist) she stopped taking her vitamin C (and lysine) and had another heart attack/cardiac episode about 6 months later. (This is when we recommended Unique-E and her EKGs then returned to normal.) A few years later, Carol Again stopped her vitamin C (and lysine) after seemingly fully recovered. And then 6 months later, she had the event that led to the placement of a "too small" stent that caused her ongoing and great pain. Again, going back to high doses of Ascorsine-9 (Tower) and Unique-E she was able to reduce her pain and resume a normal life. (Believe it or not, she has stopped for the 3rd time, but as I understand has adjusted to a paleo-like diet and as far as I know, she is doing fine.)

So the warning is for people with severe CVD who have been seemingly cured by taking high doses of Vitamin C and lysine.
Stop and you revert to the condition you were in before taking vitamin C in about six months. Obviously these people require more vitamin C (esp. on modern diets) to maintain good health.

As far as pamojja's observations in his own case. Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought I read that you have "taken as much as 3 grams of vitamin C daily." This is at least half of Pauling's recommended therapeutic dose, and as I have maintained for years, if you want to experience the benefits of Pauling's therapy, you should consume AT LEAST 10,000 mg of vitamin C daily.

[pamojja]

As far as pamojja's observations in his own case. Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought I read that you have "taken as much as 3 grams of vitamin C daily." This is at least half of Pauling's recommended therapeutic dose, and as I have maintained for years, if you want to experience the benefits of Pauling's therapy, you should consume AT LEAST 10,000 mg of vitamin C daily.

You confuse me with somebody else. I've taken up to 50 g/d, that's where my bowel intolerance started. In average per day since my diagnosis 6 years ago:

21 g ascorbic acid
6 g lysine
2 g proline
.. and all other nutrients at rather higher end of therapeutic doses.

[pamojja]

(unless one believes Pauling Therapy would miraculously remove all plaque).

I must say I thought that was the point of it. Isn't that what everyone back to Linus Pauling himself have been saying?

In the word of Linus Pauling in his patent:

SUMMARY OF THE INVENTION

The foregoing needs in the treatment and prevention of cardiovascular disease are met by the methods and compositions of the present invention.

A method is provided for the treatment of occlusive cardiovascular disease, comprising the step of administering to a subject an effective amount of ascorbate and one or more binding inhibitors, as a mixture or as a compound comprising ascorbate covalently linked with binding inhibitors, which inhibit the binding of Lp(a) to blood vessel walls, such as arterial walls. This effect may also be obtained by administering an effective amount of one or more inhibitors, without ascorbate. The term binding inhibitor throughout the specification and claims is intended to include all substances that have an affinity for the lysine binding site present on the interior walls of blood vessels, particularly arteries, the site of Lp(a) binding. Most of these substances compete with plasmin for the lysine binding site and some of these compounds, in high doses, are in clinical use for the treatment of hyperfibrinolytic states.

A method is further provided for the prevention of atherosclerosis comprising the step of administering to a subject an effective amount of ascorbate and one or more binding inhibitors as previously discussed but further comprising one or more antioxidants. The term antioxidant throughout the specification and the claims is intended to exclude ascorbate which has as one of its chemical properties a potent antioxidant effect.

It is thus an object of the invention to provide a method for treatment of occlusive cardiovascular disease by administering to a subject an effective amount of ascorbate and one or more binding inhibitors, or an effective amount of one or a mixture of binding inhibitors.

It is another object of the invention to provide a method for preventing of occlusive cardiovascular disease, by administering to a subject an amount of ascorbate effective to lower the amount of Lp(a) in the plasma of the subject.

Yet another object of the present invention is to provide a method for prevention of cardiovascular disease by administering to a subject an effective amount of ascorbate and one or more binding inhibitors, or an effective amount of one or more binding inhibitors.

A further object of the present invention is to provide a pharmaceutically acceptable agent for the treatment of occlusive cardiovascular disease.

Still another object of the present invention is to provide a pharmaceutically acceptable agent for the prevention of cardiovascular disease.

These and other objects will be more readily understood upon consideration of the following detailed descriptions of embodiments of the invention and the drawings.

Lp(a) binding side inhibition, Plasma Lp(a) reduction... in his words I explicitly miss the mentioning of plaque reduction.

[pamojja]

To summarize:

1.) Despite conventional treatment plaque growth usually continues at 30% per year.

2.) The slowing down of this exponential growth in existing plaque also indicates stabilization, and maybe even a slight decrease, but most importantly the rupturing of plaque (the cause for heart attacks, amputation..) becomes very unlikely.

Some here seem to believe healing of CVD only occurs with the removal of every plaque, and my case therefore a failure. But if you take the usual growth rate of 30% - my 80% stenosis would have arrived at a 104% blockage already after the first year!

Instead it stayed at exactly the same max. of 80% for 6 years - but my pain-free walking distance improved from 400 meters to 8 kms - 20-fold. Which to me means all the difference between being disabled or recovery.

Therefore I pay my highest respect to Linus Pauling's therapy, it worked as expected for me.

[pamojja]

But if you take the usual growth rate of 30% - my 80% stenosis would have arrived at a 104% blockage already after the first year!

I've to admit, thats a gross oversimplification, since the 30% CAC score increase is usually measured from all accumulated calcification of the arteries around the heard, and not at a particular blockage.

Also further above I wasn't completely right in saying I didn't even knew 1 Pauling Therapy user who used CAC score to verify plaque regression- It's this guy, however, he used a much larger arsenal then Linus could have known about in his time:

http://www.k-vitamins.com/index.php?page=My_Story

[Lone Dog]

... in his words I explicitly miss the mentioning of plaque reduction.

However, in this interview he does use the words "pull it loose and destroy the atherosclerotic plaques" towards the end of question 1.

http://www.hearttechnology.com/Pauling_ ... rview.html

[pamojja]

They enter into competition with the lysyl residues on the wall of artery and accordingly count to prevent the lipoprotein (a) from being deposited or even will work to pull it loose and destroy the atherosclerotic plaques.

Question: Do you think the treatment of lysine and vitamin C can reverse the atherosclerotic process?

I think so, yes.

.. or even will work to pull it loose and destroy the atherosclerotic plaque.

I think that this option is a possibility too. I also think the reason most Pauling Therapy users didn't verify it is because recovery is good enough for them, and verification more of academic interest in that particular circumstance.