Question about Lipoprotein(a) and Vitamin C

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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johnyascorbate
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Question about Lipoprotein(a) and Vitamin C

Post Number:#1  Post by johnyascorbate » Sun Oct 05, 2014 1:06 pm

Hi,
I have a question regarding Lp(a) and Vitamin C. I've heard Dr. Pauling talk about Lp(a) and its relationship with vitamin c. Dr. Pauling always said an Lp(a) of 10-20 mg/dl is optimum and that having an Lp(a) below 10mg/dl or above 20 mg/dl increased the risk for a cardiovascular event. My Lp(a) is under 10mg/dl and I do take large amounts of Vitamin C along with other supplements. Should I take steps to increase my level to somewhere above 10mg/dl? if so, how would i do that?

Thanks,
John

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Re: Question about Lipoprotein(a) and Vitamin C

Post Number:#2  Post by Johnwen » Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:55 am

That would be a BIG MISTAKE!!

If you have more than 20 mg/dl in the blood it begins to deposit plaques and causes atherosclerosis.
Linus Pauling (From the Linus Pauling Video on Heart Disease, 1992)


ZERO is OPTIMAL!!! 1-10mg/dl is doable but could be lower!

I get mine checked every 3 month’s if it gets over 1 or 2 I add a extra dose of “Pauling therapy” Mostly it stays at “0”
Of course I’ve taken V-C since 78 when one of my professors recommended it to help improve my memory. Then I went to Pauling’s rec’s 14 years ago.

I have also been on Niacin 1000mg per day for the last 5 years. Which also helps lower LP(a). Of course Big Pharma is now trying to say it don’t help. Probably because they can’t patent it and rake in the BIG $$$$ from it. Admitting it helps prevent heart disease would also be like saying Pauling was right, which isn’t going to happen any time soon.

So when it comes to LP(a) Lower is always better!! Once you find out what it’s doing you’ll understand the reasoning behind this!
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Re: Question about Lipoprotein(a) and Vitamin C

Post Number:#3  Post by ofonorow » Mon Oct 06, 2014 11:06 am

Thank you johnwen. Yes, Pauling never implied that lp(a) less than 10mg/dl was bad!
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Re: Question about Lipoprotein(a) and Vitamin C

Post Number:#4  Post by johnyascorbate » Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:11 pm

In this vide https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=2bymKIPaTws#t=2468 Dr. Pauling clearly states that those who have less than 10 mg/dl are at a risk for heart disease. More of a risk than those who have between 10-20 mg/dl.

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Re: Question about Lipoprotein(a) and Vitamin C

Post Number:#5  Post by Johnwen » Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:44 am

If you listen close to what Pauling is saying in that tape. He is talking how a person with heretical or genetically acquired low LP(a) are at risk due to low levels of LP(a). People with this have a low ability to produce collagen thus causing a weakness in the arterial walls as while as many other associated illness‘s related to this. As he goes on you’ll hear him talk about how V-C acts as a surrogate (replacement) for LP(a) thus reducing the need for this molecule and the liver will produce less. So Yes a person who has Low LP(a) from birth or liver damage is at a higher risk of coronary disease. However a person who substitutes this component with a surrogate (V-C) will reap the benefits of having a good production of collagen without the adverse effects of the LP(a) and the production of LP(a) will reduce if not subside till a need arises (Low V-C).

A little Note: As Pauling made his presentations as he got up in age. He tended to jump around on subjects as he went along. So what your picking up on is one point. Where he’s giving what people with certain levels from birth have and their risk factors but he then expounds on it later in his presentation when he’s talking about V-C and how it affects it. It all comes together then.
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Re: Question about Lipoprotein(a) and Vitamin C

Post Number:#6  Post by johnyascorbate » Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:16 pm

Thank you for clearing that up for me.

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Re: Question about Lipoprotein(a) and Vitamin C

Post Number:#7  Post by ofonorow » Wed Oct 08, 2014 12:55 pm

johnyascorbate wrote:In this vide https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=2bymKIPaTws#t=2468 Dr. Pauling clearly states that those who have less than 10 mg/dl are at a risk for heart disease. More of a risk than those who have between 10-20 mg/dl.


Thank you for bringing this to our attention! (First time I had seen this lecture.) As johnwen points out, what Pauling is trying to say is that those without the ability to make Lp(a) - AND NOT GETTING ENOUGH VITAMIN C TO KEEP THEIR ARTERIES STRONG - will have CVD. The bodies response to CVD (chronic scurvy) is to raise Lp(a), if it can.

He did not have the benefit of the 20 years we now have, and we can safely say that people on the optimal amount of vitamin C (around 10,000 mg daily) plus 5-6 grams of lysine (and proline) see their Lp(a) drop to less than 2, even zero, and while they are on vitamin C there is absolutely no danger, only good health.
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Re: Question about Lipoprotein(a) and Vitamin C

Post Number:#8  Post by pamojja » Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:06 pm

ofonorow wrote: .. we can safely say that people on the optimal amount of vitamin C (around 10,000 mg daily) plus 5-6 grams of lysine (and proline) see their Lp(a) drop to less than 2, even zero, ..


Lets do a poll to give this statement certainty.

How many here did see a drop in Lp(a) to less than 2 with optimal doses for years - how many didn't?

Here my average data on 21 g Vitamin C and 6 g Lysine daily for the last 6 years:

year - Lp(a) mass mg/dl (0-30 range)
2008 -
2009 - 57
2010 - 47
2011 - 59
2012 - 55
2013 - 43
2014 - 34


Though Vitamin C probably making Lp(a) less sticky and saving my live by not letting my 80% stenosis grow any further.

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Re: Question about Lipoprotein(a) and Vitamin C

Post Number:#9  Post by gmdodaro » Sat Oct 18, 2014 4:17 am

My recent lp(a) number is 21, and I started 11 days ago on 15g vit C, 6 grams lysine, 2 grams proline. When I get another test, I'll be watching that number and let you know, Pamojja.

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Re: Question about Lipoprotein(a) and Vitamin C

Post Number:#10  Post by ofonorow » Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:46 am

I stand corrected pamojja! I should have said "many see their Lp(a) drop to around 2 mg/dl." Not imply every. I should also qualify that from reports, these drops apparently require proline supplementation, along with vitamin C and lysine.

If you are only taking vitamin C and lysine over the years, then I would not expect your Lp(a) numbers to be much different than reported. (It would be interesting to know if they are measured or "calculated"?)
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Re: Question about Lipoprotein(a) and Vitamin C

Post Number:#11  Post by johnyascorbate » Mon Oct 20, 2014 4:51 pm

What is the difference between a measured Lp(a) value and a calculated value? How can one tell from their results which one it is?

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Re: Question about Lipoprotein(a) and Vitamin C

Post Number:#12  Post by pamojja » Tue Oct 21, 2014 3:25 am

ofonorow wrote:I stand corrected pamojja! I should have said "many see their Lp(a) drop to around 2 mg/dl." Not imply every. I should also qualify that from reports, these drops apparently require proline supplementation, along with vitamin C and lysine.


Thanks for the correction, I appreciate. Forgot to mention also got 2 g/d of Proline during these years.

What is the difference between a measured Lp(a) value and a calculated value?


I know LDL is mostly calculated by the Friedewald equation. Do you know an equation for Lp(a)? I thought there is only 2 measurements, by mass and particle-count, and that one should at least stick with one method to make values comparable. Preferably particle-count.

Where I live only by mass has been available. And while the LDL is indicated as directly measured, Lp(a) mass values don't have any such attribution.

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Re: Question about Lipoprotein(a) and Vitamin C

Post Number:#13  Post by ofonorow » Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:10 pm

Shortly after we began trying to disseminate the knowledge of the Linus Pauling discovery, the U. S. FDA issued a letter to laboratories to the effect that it was acceptable to "calculate" rather than measure Lp(a). I think the rationale had something to do with cost and the fact that there is no known way to lower Lp(a), etc.

This FDa memorandum alerted us to the fact that not all Lp(a) blood tests measurements would be measured and/or accurate.

Early on a large laboratory, then called "Quest", wouldn't tell us how their Lp(a) measurements were done, but someone was able to find out that they were calculated.

We do know and trust the Atherotech VAP test (although interestingly, not all the Lp(a) numbers are reported any more, probably because it hurt their sales, as doctors didn't know what to make of something that could not be controlled by standard medications.) However, Atherotech still keeps the Lp(a) numbers they don't report, and a physician can ask that all the Lp(a) numbers be included on his/her patient's VAP test.
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