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Question about Lipoprotein(a) and Vitamin C
Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 1:06 pm
by johnyascorbate
Hi,
I have a question regarding Lp(a) and Vitamin C. I've heard Dr. Pauling talk about Lp(a) and its relationship with vitamin c. Dr. Pauling always said an Lp(a) of 10-20 mg/dl is optimum and that having an Lp(a) below 10mg/dl or above 20 mg/dl increased the risk for a cardiovascular event. My Lp(a) is under 10mg/dl and I do take large amounts of Vitamin C along with other supplements. Should I take steps to increase my level to somewhere above 10mg/dl? if so, how would i do that?
Thanks,
John
Re: Question about Lipoprotein(a) and Vitamin C
Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:55 am
by Johnwen
Re: Question about Lipoprotein(a) and Vitamin C
Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 11:06 am
by ofonorow
Thank you johnwen. Yes, Pauling never implied that lp(a) less than 10mg/dl was bad!
Re: Question about Lipoprotein(a) and Vitamin C
Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:11 pm
by johnyascorbate
In this vide
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=2bymKIPaTws#t=2468 Dr. Pauling clearly states that those who have less than 10 mg/dl are at a risk for heart disease. More of a risk than those who have between 10-20 mg/dl.
Re: Question about Lipoprotein(a) and Vitamin C
Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:44 am
by Johnwen
Re: Question about Lipoprotein(a) and Vitamin C
Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:16 pm
by johnyascorbate
Thank you for clearing that up for me.
Re: Question about Lipoprotein(a) and Vitamin C
Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 12:55 pm
by ofonorow
Thank you for bringing this to our attention! (First time I had seen this lecture.) As johnwen points out, what Pauling is trying to say is that those without the ability to make Lp(a) - AND NOT GETTING ENOUGH VITAMIN C TO KEEP THEIR ARTERIES STRONG - will have CVD. The bodies response to CVD (chronic scurvy) is to raise Lp(a), if it can.
He did not have the benefit of the 20 years we now have, and we can safely say that people on the optimal amount of vitamin C (around 10,000 mg daily) plus 5-6 grams of lysine (and proline) see their Lp(a) drop to less than 2, even zero, and while they are on vitamin C there is absolutely no danger, only good health.
Re: Question about Lipoprotein(a) and Vitamin C
Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:06 pm
by pamojja
ofonorow wrote: .. we can safely say that people on the optimal amount of vitamin C (around 10,000 mg daily) plus 5-6 grams of lysine (and proline) see their Lp(a) drop to less than 2, even zero, ..
Lets do a poll to give this statement certainty.
How many here did see a drop in Lp(a) to less than 2 with optimal doses for years - how many didn't?
Here my average data on 21 g Vitamin C and 6 g Lysine daily for the last 6 years:
year - Lp(a) mass mg/dl (0-30 range)
2008 -
2009 - 57
2010 - 47
2011 - 59
2012 - 55
2013 - 43
2014 - 34
Though Vitamin C probably making Lp(a) less sticky and saving my live by not letting my 80% stenosis grow any further.
Re: Question about Lipoprotein(a) and Vitamin C
Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 4:17 am
by gmdodaro
My recent lp(a) number is 21, and I started 11 days ago on 15g vit C, 6 grams lysine, 2 grams proline. When I get another test, I'll be watching that number and let you know, Pamojja.
Re: Question about Lipoprotein(a) and Vitamin C
Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:46 am
by ofonorow
I stand corrected pamojja! I should have said "many see their Lp(a) drop to around 2 mg/dl." Not imply every. I should also qualify that from reports, these drops apparently require proline supplementation, along with vitamin C and lysine.
If you are only taking vitamin C and lysine over the years, then I would not expect your Lp(a) numbers to be much different than reported. (It would be interesting to know if they are measured or "calculated"?)
Re: Question about Lipoprotein(a) and Vitamin C
Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 4:51 pm
by johnyascorbate
What is the difference between a measured Lp(a) value and a calculated value? How can one tell from their results which one it is?
Re: Question about Lipoprotein(a) and Vitamin C
Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 3:25 am
by pamojja
ofonorow wrote:I stand corrected pamojja! I should have said "many see their Lp(a) drop to around 2 mg/dl." Not imply every. I should also qualify that from reports, these drops apparently require proline supplementation, along with vitamin C and lysine.
Thanks for the correction, I appreciate. Forgot to mention also got 2 g/d of Proline during these years.
What is the difference between a measured Lp(a) value and a calculated value?
I know LDL is mostly calculated by the
Friedewald equation. Do you know an equation for Lp(a)? I thought there is only 2 measurements, by mass and particle-count, and that one should at least stick with one method to make values comparable. Preferably particle-count.
Where I live only by mass has been available. And while the LDL is indicated as directly measured, Lp(a) mass values don't have any such attribution.
Re: Question about Lipoprotein(a) and Vitamin C
Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:10 pm
by ofonorow
Shortly after we began trying to disseminate the knowledge of the Linus Pauling discovery, the U. S. FDA issued a letter to laboratories to the effect that it was acceptable to "calculate" rather than measure Lp(a). I think the rationale had something to do with cost and the fact that there is no known way to lower Lp(a), etc.
This FDa memorandum alerted us to the fact that not all Lp(a) blood tests measurements would be measured and/or accurate.
Early on a large laboratory, then called "Quest", wouldn't tell us how their Lp(a) measurements were done, but someone was able to find out that they were calculated.
We do know and trust the Atherotech VAP test (although interestingly, not all the Lp(a) numbers are reported any more, probably because it hurt their sales, as doctors didn't know what to make of something that could not be controlled by standard medications.) However, Atherotech still keeps the Lp(a) numbers they don't report, and a physician can ask that all the Lp(a) numbers be included on his/her patient's VAP test.