Vitamin E and Blood Thinners - Safe or Not??

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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lolex
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Vitamin E and Blood Thinners - Safe or Not??

Post Number:#1  Post by lolex » Thu Oct 16, 2014 7:17 pm

Hi Everyone,

Quote from Owen in Thread ”Re: Vitamin K? (And Vitamin A?)” posted Mon Jul 28, 2014

“Vitamin E is important for heart patients, as Pauling relates in HTLLAFB, and as author Steve Sinatra reports in one of his CoQ10 books citing a WHO study that showed the most critical factor in heart attacks is low levels of serum vitamin E!

The former owner and CEO of A. C. Grace, who bought the company because he credited Unique-E with saving his life after a heart attack, recommended 2000 iu of Unique-E in the morning (5 400 iu pills) and this recommendation has had "miraculous" effects in heart patients also on the Pauling therapy. In fact, on one day when I was answering the phone, I got multiple calls from physicians asking "IF PAULING WAS CORRECT, WHY DO THE EKG'S OF PATIENTS ON UNIQUE-E RETURN TO NORMAL?" After this same question/report from two doctors in the same day, I began suggesting Unique-E, and then, as in the case of Carol Smith - EKGs returned to normal.”

Based on recommendations on this site and others, I just bought a couple of bottles of Unique-E…. it seems to be far superior to ‘ordinary E’. I’m concerned though because I’m on 75mg Plavix per day… and don’t want to become a ‘bleeder’ due to too many blood thinners in my system.

Ideally, I’d like to substitute Unique-E for Plavix… or reduce the Plavix to half a pill.

Can anyone give any advice / guidance on this please??

The abstracts below seem to be quite strong in terms of cautioning against Vitamin-E…. but there are many different qualities of supplement ‘out there’ …


Mayo Clinic

Interactions with Herbs and Dietary Supplements

Vitamin E may increase the risk of bleeding when taken with herbs and supplements that are believed to increase the risk of bleeding. Multiple cases of bleeding have been reported with the use of Ginkgo biloba, and fewer cases with garlic and saw palmetto. Numerous other agents may theoretically increase the risk of bleeding, although this has not been proven in most cases.
Vitamin E may interfere with the way the body processes certain herbs or supplements using the liver's "cytochrome P450" enzyme system. As a result, the levels of other herbs or supplements may be altered in the blood. It may also alter the effects that other herbs or supplements possibly have on the P450 system.
Vitamin E may also interact with aloe, Alzheimer's herbs and supplements, anesthetics, anti-androgens, anti-arthritis herbs and supplements, anti-asthma herbs and supplements, anticancer herbs and supplements, antidiabetic agents, anti-estrogens, antioxidants, anti-seizure herbs and supplements, cholesterol-lowering herbs and supplements, cigarettes, copper, fish oil, heart herbs and supplements, herbs and supplements that cause abortion, hormonal herbs and supplements, hydrophilic herbs and supplements, iron, mineral oil, nervous system herbs and supplements, omega-6 fatty acids, stanyl esters, vitamin A, vitamin C, vitamin K, and zinc.
http://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplem ... b-20060476
Ann Intern Med. 2005 Jan 4;142(1):37-46. Epub 2004 Nov 10.


Meta-analysis: high-dosage vitamin E supplementation may increase all-cause mortality.
Miller ER 3rd1, Pastor-Barriuso R, Dalal D, Riemersma RA, Appel LJ, Guallar E.

Author information
• 1The Johns Hopkins School of Medicine, and The Welch Center for Prevention, Epidemiology and Clinical Research, The Johns Hopkins Medical Institutions, Baltimore, Maryland 21205-2223, USA. ermiller@jhmi.edu

Abstract

BACKGROUND:

Experimental models and observational studies suggest that vitamin E supplementation may prevent cardiovascular disease and cancer. However, several trials of high-dosage vitamin E supplementation showed non-statistically significant increases in total mortality.

CONCLUSION:
High-dosage (> or =400 IU/d) vitamin E supplements may increase all-cause mortality and should be avoided.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15537682

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Re: Vitamin E and Blood Thinners - Safe or Not??

Post Number:#2  Post by exitium » Mon Oct 20, 2014 8:43 am

I was put on a beta blocker and aspirin as a blood thinner when I was diagnosed with AFIB. I was on them for 3 months then stopped cold turkey. I researched the meds and the theory behind them and found that there was no real solid evidence that taking them would increase longevity. As a matter of fact the beta blocker actually reduced it. So I had to ask myself why am I spending the money on something that offers no aid? My doc also said afib just happened and that its irreversible however if it became a problem they could possibly due an ablation which once again can have som very serious side effects.

So began my journey into whole health and all the possible causes of afib. Im happy to report that after a year of extensive supplementation my afib is about 90% improved and I suspect it will fully resolve given some more time.

I particularly like this line for your post above:

"Vitamin E may interfere with the way the body processes certain herbs or supplements using the liver's "cytochrome P450" enzyme system."

now, there are some very serious interactions that can occur with supplements and medication, but I have always wondered. how come the medical community is so hell bent on stearing people away from consuming ESSENTIAL nutrients and in turn replacing them with drugs??

I mean really, thats like cutting off your nose to spite your face isnt it? Why would a doc tell you NOT to consume an ESSENTIAL nutrient? Especially if they have not even checked to see if your levels are below the norm? Thats not to say I am condoning mega supplementation of all nutrients but I would wager that many of the ailments we face today are simply brought on by lack of essential nutrients OR a sever imbalance between whats needed.

For example the modern diet is high in salt low on potassium. Low in iodone, low in C and many other nutrients due to poor food sources.

Many nutrients have found to work well at helping reduce excessive blood clotting. Like niacin for example does wonders at unclumping blood without over thinning it. Vit E and fish oils also help blood "flow".

If your determined and persistant I think you could certainly get off your meds but it will take time, patience and ideally proper blood tests to insure optimal safety. If you are at the point where you need drugs I would say you likely have a number of deficiencies and/or imbalances if you fix them your body should be able to heal itself.

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Re: Vitamin E and Blood Thinners - Safe or Not??

Post Number:#3  Post by ofonorow » Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:56 am

Excellent response by exitium above.

Based on recommendations on this site and others, I just bought a couple of bottles of Unique-E…. it seems to be far superior to ‘ordinary E’. I’m concerned though because I’m on 75mg Plavix per day… and don’t want to become a ‘bleeder’ due to too many blood thinners in my system.

Ideally, I’d like to substitute Unique-E for Plavix… or reduce the Plavix to half a pill.

Can anyone give any advice / guidance on this please??


I look forward to johnwen's response!

What I think I know is that you don't really want to be on Plavix - based on the clinical trials - because at least 2 trails were curtailed early because the people in the placebo group were faring better than the Plavix group! (What drug company wants to have that published in a medical journal!

As far as vitamin E - lots of misinformation out there these days, which to my mind usually means that the powers who can easily get lies into the press are afraid of vitami E as competition to various drugs (pardon my cynicism).
I finally found the study that Sinatra was referring to (in a book on DHEA authored by Steven Cherniske).http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=11456&p=36887&hilit=cherniske#p36887
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American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year

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Re: Vitamin E and Blood Thinners - Safe or Not??

Post Number:#4  Post by Doug444 » Wed Oct 22, 2014 9:45 am

It depends what you mean by "safe".

I have been taking Warfarin for about 2.5 years. I find that Vitamin E does increase my INR (as does red wine and curry).

This allows me to reduce my Warfarin dose. :D

My blood is tested on a monthly basis - sometimes weekly, if my INR varies too much.

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Re: Vitamin E and Blood Thinners - Safe or Not??

Post Number:#5  Post by Johnwen » Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:17 am

Yes! Vitamin E does thin the blood especially the higher quality varieties.
Yes! Taking Plavix, he’s going to have black and blue mark’s from even the slightest bumps and some POSSIBLE bleeds from places one thought would not bleed from!

The important thing here is the Doctor that prescribed it for him has determined that the risks are outweighed by the benefits this drug will provide him with. Any other changes he makes while taking this drug should be under the supervision of the prescribing physician.

With that said it would be in the best interest of this person to consult with his doctor before starting any other additions or trying to replace the medicines the doctor prescribed for him.
The reason I’m taking this stand, is Plavix even though it’s prescribed quite regularly, is serious medicine with loads of side effects and pit falls that can cause some serious damage.

This doesn’t become clear till you see a patient wrapped like a mummy with blood leaking out of their skin and a load of machines and tubes trying to replace and exchange their blood to keep them going. Then one realizes what this drug can do and caution that is needed with it.

So the best advise I can give is “Talk with your Doc!!!”
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is
research!

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Re: Vitamin E and Blood Thinners - Safe or Not??

Post Number:#6  Post by ofonorow » Thu Oct 23, 2014 1:15 pm

johnwen wrote:Yes! Vitamin E does thin the blood especially the higher quality varieties."


Interesting Doug444 - as this must be more individualized that I previously thought (as my brother took large amounts of Unique-E from A.C. Grace and was not able to budge his INR, at least that is what he told me. In his case, the only thing that seemed to matter was the dosage of warfarin or coumadin or whatever he was on.)
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Re: Vitamin E and Blood Thinners - Safe or Not??

Post Number:#7  Post by Johnwen » Thu Oct 23, 2014 4:56 pm

Ok some clarification maybe necessary here!
Plavix and Coumadin are two different animals!
“Thinning the blood,” has become a generic description to refer to less clotting ability, but the actions of the 2 drugs are as different as night and day.

Warfarin (coumadin) is known as a “Vitamin K Antagonist,” but it is not a true antagonist of Vitamin K. Because what it does is knocks out the Enzyme called, “V-K Epoxide Reductase.” which is responsible for recycling of vitamin k after it’s oxidized and it’s removed rather then being reused. Thus creating a deficiency. The two factors in the blood that this effects is reconverting Proconvertin (Factor V I I (7)) and Prothrombin ( factor II (2)) Which makes the blood take longer to coagulate. This is usually given for fibulation which is when the heart flutters and doesn’t pump much blood and pools of blood can sit for a period of time in the heart and start to clump. They then get pushed out into the system and either dissolve or get stuck in a small artery, clump tighter and block the blood flow to the downstream components. Since the brain receives the most closest blood flow and has the smallest arteries it usually causes a stroke!

Plavix (Clopidogrel Bisulfate) Basically kills what is known as the ADP (Adenosine DiPhosphate) receptor of the platelet cells of the blood.
Then it works in the liver By inhibiting the factors involved in platelet aggregation (sticking together). This is the factors that bring about the lump you feel in a bruise when you get a black and blue mark. When this happens inside the arteries when a stent is placed or there is traumatic damage done to the inside of an artery. Where this clump of platelets can break loose and block flow thru an artery. It’s also used after a heart attack so the blood can sneak around a block and supply some relief downstream.


So as you can see one stops the natural reaction that keeps us from bleeding to death with a minor cut. The other basically greases up the platelets so they don’t stick together so if you bang yourself lightly the blood will rush to the site and leak out of the capillaries where this action is normally stopped because the platelets will stay inside the capillaries and not slide out.
So I think you see the difference. If not here’s one final example!!
You cut yourself! It bleeds for awhile then a glob forms over the cut. This is what warfarin STOPS! It’ll take a long time for it to form if your taking IT!
NOW YOU GOT THE CLOT! But blood keeps ozzing out around it and just rolls out this is what plavix does. Better??
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is
research!


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