I sure hope it isn't hype

[ofonorow]

New user gmdodaro sent this

You web site and book have completely convinced me that this will help in my family with heart disease over several generations. I sure hope it isn't hype.


... asked how they found us

Thanks, Owen? Short answer: I found http://www.paulingtherapy.com/ when I clicked a link under doctors on the Gordon Research site.

Long answer: I've been searching for answers for three years since Electron Beam Tomography test first registered 255 and then more than doubled to 555 a couple of months ago.
I've had about 10 disodium EDTA chelations and started ozone both IV and home admin. Now I get a fast 3 gram Ca EDTA push once a week.

I read Pauling in the 1980s and have taken 5-10 grams of ascorbic acid per day for most of 30 years. But, about the same time frame this odyssey began, I thought I might be absorbing too much iron as a result of the vitamin C. I have thalassemia minor and have been anemic all my life despite the fact that my ferritin tests currently at 377.

I'm back to high dosage of ascorbic 10-15 g/daily plus 6 g Lysine and 3 g Proline. Also a raft of other supplements including CoQ10, B12 methalcobalymin ....

I'm 65. My parents both have heart disease, but are surviving in their 90s. My enthusiasm for your information has been persuasive and they are on the C/Lysine/Proline protocol as well. They are case studies in heart disease, Mom with severe aortic stenosis, atrial fibrillation, blood pressure problems and the attendant medications coumadin, metoprolol, lysinnopril. Dad 92 has had 4 way bypass and 2 stents, and after fifteen years on statins he now has dementia at 94.

[gmdodaro]

Thanks, Owen. We're open to suggestions. To answer your question from the email conversation, yes the EBT scores are coronary calcium. I was stunned by the interpretation that I am likely to have a heart attack or stroke. I run five or six days per week and am mostly asymptomatic. Stress tests and echo cardiograms are fine. But, this past summer I had several episodes of atrial fibrillation, which sent me back to the cardiologist for the second test. I've started taking 5-8 mg of vitamin K daily, vitamin E mixed tocopherals, CoQ10, various minerals, including zinc, magnesium, selenium.

After the last EBT and a-fib episodes, the cardiologist suggested aspirin, a statin, diltiazem to prevent a-fib, and at the ER they urged me to start coumadin. The cardiologist is a pleasant, reasonable guy who says I'm an interesting case. He didn't blanch when I told him I had five Na2 EDTA chelation treatments, 3 grams, after my first coronary calcium score of 255. These treatments didn't slow the calcium accumulation, though they did relieve me of lead and mercury measured near the top of the charts. The cardiologist says he'd like to have somebody teach him something, which I think is an honest appraisal of the efficacy of his current remedies.

My wife and I have been careful about what we eat for thirty five years, avoiding junk and sugar like the plague. But, it appears reduced dosage of vitamin C, due to my concern about ferritin above 300, has taken a toll. I think most of the damage was done in only a year or so. Previously I was an enthusiast for Pauling and vitamin C. I wasn't deterred by a friend who is professor at the UW medical school, when I asked what he thought about Pauling's "Vitamin C and the Common Cold"--this was back in the 1980s. Professor Al opined, "We had Pauling speak at the med school, and he is completely rational until he starts talking about vitamin C." I wasn't deterred because by that time I had discovered that I didn't have to suffer with 2-3 miserable colds per year that lasted a couple of weeks. It also relieved my allergies, no small feat in the Pacific Northwest, and I felt better.

My parents 94 and 92 are going to be difficult to treat. Both have a-fib. My mother is on the drugs listed in the earlier message, including coumadin, which precludes vitamin K. But, she has taken this protocol willingly and is trying to get enough ascorbic acid, l-lysine, and l-proline to make progress. She hasn't had any surgery or stents. Her cardiologist this week increased her dosage of metoprolol 50 -> 100 units. She's giving the ascorbic acid, l-lysine, and l-proline to my father as feasible given his dementia.

I made a typo in the email message: my father's heart surgery and stents were not when he was 92 but about 20 and 15 years ago. 92 is my mother's age.

[purposefirst]

I've had about 10 disodium EDTA chelations and started ozone both IV and home admin. Now I get a fast 3 gram Ca EDTA push once a week.

I tried some EDTA chelation earlier this year after doing considerable research. Here's some thoughts and info you might want to consider…

You mentioned "Gordon Research." There are two long-time top experts on EDTA chelation: Dr. Garry Gordon and Dr Elmer Cranton. (Gordon is in his late 70s and Cranton is about 80.) These two men have considerable disagreements.

You (or your doc) appear to be Gordon followers. Only Dr Gordon recommends "quick push" of calcium-EDTA. Dr Cranton recommends disodium-EDTA for atherosclerosis, and specifically not CaEDTA for that purpose (although CaEDTA is better for chelating lead than disodium EDTA).

BUT UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES DOES DR CRANTON RECOMMEND "QUICK PUSH" (infusion of a full dose of 3 grams within a few minutes). That goes for any type of EDTA. Cranton recommends infusion of 3 grams over a period of 3 hours (or longer sometimes depending on variables). Cranton says that quicker infusions of any type of EDTA can cause kidney damage!

"Calcium-EDTA has no proven benefit in the treatment of age-related diseases, coronary heart disease or atherosclerosis. Calcium-EDTA is also potentially dangerous if the full dose of EDTA is injected rapidly. Calcium-EDTA is equal to disodium-EDTA in its potential to harm the kidneys if given too rapidly. A slow 3-hour infusion was established many years ago as the only safe way to administer a full therapeutic dose of any form of intravenous EDTA" --Elmer Cranton

"Calcium-EDTA does not cause blood calcium levels to drop, like disodium-EDTA," --Elmer Cranton.

http://www.drcranton.com/

After studying the materials of both Dr Cranton and Dr Gordon, I concluded that Dr Cranton made much more sense. Let me know if you want to hear of my personal experiences with EDTA.

[gmdodaro]

Hello, PurposeFirst. Yes, certainly, I am interested in your experience with chelation. As I mentioned, the first five slow 3 hour 3 gram Na2 EDTA chelation treatments I had, about a year ago, didn't slow down the calcium build-up in my case. The EBT calcium score more than doubled from 255 to 555. Since then I've had another five slow Na2 EDTA of 1.5 grams plus ozone autohemotherapy following Drs. Robert Rowen and Frank Shallenberger. Shallenberger calls the combination chezone.

As I've read about chelation, starting with Dr. Cranton and more recently with Gordon, Shallenberger, and others, I've concluded that, in many cases, chelation doesn't clear calcification from the arteries, but people often "get well" anyway. Gordon's recovery, for example. Many chelation patients never have the EBT test for calcium, so it's difficult to know what is happening, but it seems plausible that reducing heavy metal toxicity relieves some of the inflammation that causes arterial sclerosis. Ozone has been studied extensively by Rowen, Shallenberger, Velio Bocci, and others and shown to have numerous useful effects, including Nitric Oxide production, antimicrobeal action.

Here is an article by Gordon on the fast Ca EDTA chelation: http://beta.asoundstrategy.com/sitemast ... otocol.pdf
Gordon's investigations seem more extensive than Cranton's, especially with regard to oral chelation. I think most people can benefit from removing heavy metals. And, of course, Gordon's site links to Owen Fonorow's Linus Pauling therapy site, which is where I started a couple of weeks ago, and I'm very thankful I found it.

The Pauling therapy looks much superior for treating heart disease, and I'm on it, pushing bowel tolerance every day and half the night.

[Johnwen]

It’s been a while since I even looked into this subject so I went back to some of my old notes and came up with the following. I summarized it as best I could!

Calcium EDAT is used mostly for heavy metal removal. Because the Calcium is displaced by heavy metals which then form stable EDTA complexes that are then excreted in urine. The one thing that should be kept in mind when dealing with heavy metals is rapid infusion in a person with swelling of the brain which is usually an effect of heavy metal poisoning is at risk of increased intracranial pressures which could have some pretty bad outcomes.
So I believe Dr. Gordon’s rec.s on rapid infusions have some serious downsides.
Edetate disodium on the other hand removes minerals from the body primarily calcium. Since this action is mostly slow, it should always be administered slowly which prevents a sudden on slaught of mineral’s into the kidneys. Although their attached to the EDTA clumping is still possible.

With all this in mind it appears That Dr. Gordon’s rec.s are a little risky at best. You can also see that each has it’s own target of attraction. Which I believe would lead one to think that first removal of the heavy metals which have the possibility of causing a calcium build up (Calcium EDAT) , would be the first line of action. Then following it up after awhile with a few rounds of Edetate disodium to remove the mineral build ups. This should also be done with V-C infusions to support the vessel structures. All administered slowly to spare the kidneys.

Hope this helps in some way!

[gmdodaro]

Thanks, JohnWen. Since I learned about the Pauling Therapy, it appears less important to chelate toxic metals than correcting subclinical vitamin C deficiency. I have gotten rid of a lot of lead and mercury over past months that showed in my first test about a year ago. The objective now is to reduce or eliminate the coronary calcium indicated by recent EBT score of 555.

I wouldn't have known I have heart disease had I not done EBT scans: 255 three years ago, 555 recently. I run 5-6 days per week without any indications of problems. I lift weights. About 6 episodes of atrial fibrillation were disturbing, but they have stopped for two months. My carotid arteries are better than average for my age. Since the calcified arteries are mainly in the heart, it seems my exercising has stressed the area more than usual, and caused stress and breakdown that the lp(a) is binding. Lp(a) last measured at 23. Another factor is ferritin at 377. Also, I remembered when writing the message to PurposeFirst that I have osteopenia. Parathyroid tested normal.

Compared to some of the cases I've read about, mine seems easy. Take vitamin C to tolerance with 6-8 grams lysine and 2-3 grams proline. Heavy metal removal at this stage may be optional. I'm waiting for results of most recent provocation test.

My mother is a difficult case: severe aortic stenosis, on metoprolol and coumadin. But she is doing the recommended dosages.
My father's dementia seems unlikely to be remediable by Pauling therapy. Do you have any opinion on dementia treatment? He has shown some improvement that seemed to be result of ozone, immediately after autohemotherapy.

[purposefirst]

Dr Johnwen,
Yes, your post is very helpful. You have added information of which I was not aware thus improving my understanding, and you have also backed up my previous conclusion. Thank you!

[purposefirst]

Mr gmdodaro,

It was mid December when my GP doc said I was on the verge of having a heart attack and he wrote a prescription for me to get a nuclear stress test by a cardiologist. I was 71 and had just retired in November from my work as a arborist (tree climber), and appeared to be in good condition, so they put me on the tread mill instead of the usual chemically-induced type of stress test usually given to those my age. The doc stopped the treadmill before completion saying my EKG was showing "very abnormal." He said I was on verge of having a heart attack, and he had not even seen the before-and-after heart scans yet (which indicated "multiple coronary ischemia"). He immediately made an appointment for me to go into a better equipped hospital for an angiogram which he said would be followed right then by either stents or by-pass surgery. I said okay.

That same day I cut way down on my food intake and began to radically alter my diet. In just two days I felt somewhat better. I decided to cancel the hospital appointment and look into alternatives, including daily exercise (mild, initially). I had been taking nutritional supplements for 15 years, but it was time to study up on what was appropriate for atherosclerosis. Ironically I had been taking a high-quality very absorbable calcium supplement for years, which might have contributed to a tough kind of plaque. (Now I avoid calcium supplements altogether, including milk and dairy, of course.)

I was anxious to do something more. I heard about EDTA chelation. Only 3 weeks after the diagnosis I began doing Calcium EDTA orally – 2400 mg/day in two separate doses, 7 day/wk. I ate food only twice a day also so as to get as many hours as possible between food intake and EDTA intake to minimize the removal of "good" minerals by the EDTA. But after 2 weeks I began to feel more tired and weaker. I persisted for another week but felt even worse. I stopped the EDTA and was soon feeling like I was before the EDTA. I'm, guessing the EDTA must have taken out needed minerals.

In three months the changes in diet, additional supplements, and daily exercise had improved the angina pain (which always came during exercise, but had lessened). I had not heard about PT yet. I had stepped my vitamin C to about 2 or 3 grams/day, which I thought was plenty, LOL.

Then I went to see an MD/nutritionist who I heard did IV EDTA chelation. By then I had studied both Gordon's and Cranton's information on EDTA chelation. It turned out that this doc was a "quick push" Gordon follower. I printed out information opposing quick-push from Cranton and showed it to him. He was not moved. He said if I wanted the 3-hour infusions I would have to go elsewhere.

So I went elsewhere to see a doc who is a chelation specialist. He gave me a series of blood tests plus a "challenge test" for heavy metals. That test showed me to be "off the chart" for lead, and fairly high in mercury and cadmium. The tests regarding atherosclerosis were not good either (eg: Lp(a) was 99 mg/dL). He recommended that I do 30 weekly chelation treatments of disodium EDTA of 3 gms each. But for a couple reasons I did not like or trust the guy.

So I went back to see the first chelation doc. I tried to talk him into doing a longer infusion. He finally was willing to compromise and give me 3 gms of CaEDTA in one hour. I reasoned that a lot of people are apparently surviving the quick-push so I should be okay with an hour. Also, although I knew disodium EDTA was better than the calcium version for atherosclerosis, I had also read that heavy metals contribute to atherosclerosis, and CaEDTA is better for that.

So I got my first IV of CaEDTA. For the next two days I had kidney pain (right side only). That was it for me – no more EDTA!!! I had my kidney function re-tested. All appears to be okay.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As a side note in regard to the reading of very high lead from the challenge test: This test is done by injecting a chelator and measuring what it pulls out of your tissues. I think the important thing is how much lead is in a person's blood. So on my own (Request-a-Test) I had my blood lead level tested. It was 2 ug/dL, which I gather is considered not bad.

But no doubt there is a lot of lead in my tissues (and perhaps mercury from my amalgams – now removed). For detoxing I have incorporated a version of Dr Chris Shade's protocol which upgrades the body's natural detox mechanism – glutathione.

Also, sweating is very good for detoxing. As a part of my regular exercise routine I use a small electric heater to bring the temp in my bathroom up to 100 degrees F and after my aerobics I go into the bathroom to finish with a weighlifting session. Lots of sweat!

[gmdodaro]

PurposeFirst, it sounds like you were also stunned to find out that you had heart disease even after staying in good physical condition for life. There clearly are several factors in arterial sclerosis. One difference between your chelation doctors and mine is that mine is taking the 3 gram CaEDTA push himself.

I found the article by Gordon and sent it to my doc. He read it and considers Gordon a reliable source after knowing his work for many years. My doc agreed to do the 3 g push in my case, followed by metals test and renal function test after a few treatments. But the kicker is that he, without any input from me, started taking the 3 g push himself.

He has been practicing environmental medicine for 40 years or more. He says most of his patients do EECP and get rid of heavy metals by that treatment. My doc also does EECP himself. But he started the 3 g Ca EDTA push himself, which is pretty strong conviction that he thinks it can do some good.

Another factor in my case that I forgot to mention. When I was in the ER for atrial fibrillation, they put every instrument that they wanted to help pay for on me. I still have pretty good insurance. A chest x-ray discovered that my lungs are overdeveloped. They had to take two shots to x-ray all of them. They also told me I have osteopenia. For some reason I'm pulling calcium out of my bones. Parathyroid test was normal. At the time of the x-rays my 5 Na2EDTA chelations were more than a year previously. Those were 3 hour, 3 g slow treatments as Cranton recommends.

[Johnwen]

Wow! We got a lot to look at!
Since my time is rather limited (one of these days I’ll retire and have more time) I’d like to start with the one’s who don’t have a voice here but are in your care! To help clear your mind a little!

Gmdodaro: On your dad! If he’s see’s a doc regularly and you go with him.
Talk to the doc about his thyroid, glucose and Homocysteine levels and if he’s doing anything to keep them right??

Then ask him about, “Cerefolin NAC” This is what is known as a “prescription medical food!” (Vitamin Pill) do a search on line about it I’m sure you’ll find plenty about it. So you’ll know what to say to the doc.

If he just blip blop’s about it without giving you a good reason why he shouldn’t take it and doesn’t want to write a script for it! (probably because he don’t know what it is!!)
Just go get a good bottle of 600mg. NAC (n-acytelcysteine)
Some B-12 and B-6 and folate and a good multi vitamin with minerals. Then figure out a way for your dad to make sure he takes them daily. Either way You should see some improvement but don’t expect miracles.

On your Ma! I posted this prior on this subject and covered it a bit before. Here is what I suggest you do also!

Now on her heart valve I covered this quite a bit in a lot of prior posts. When you get on this site click the “Search” word on top and when the search screen pops up Enter “Aortic Valve” in the keyword block and “Johnwen” in author block and hit the search button and you should get about 10 hits. Read them!

More when time permits!

[gmdodaro]

Thanks, Johnwen. I'm reading!
If vit C, lysine, and proline only improve arteries, but don't reduce calcification of the valves, it appears that the calcification of the aortic valve in my mother's case is going to be the biggest problem. I don't know the extent or numbers of her stenosis/valve problem. Can C, lysine, proline reduce aortic stenosis?

The side effects of Foscarnet seem daunting for a woman 92 years old. Do you think Na2EDTA chelation would do any good? She has had a few 1.5 gram 2 hour treatments, but she felt weakened by them. Hard to tell whether it was virus that she got at the same time. Now even getting vit C intervenously seems to make her feel weak. She takes a senior transport bus to the doctor for herself or my father or both. I live 175 miles away.

Here is a study, surprisingly published in Journal of Cardiovascular Diseases & Diagnosis
A Novel Chemical Solution to Demineralize Valvular and Coronary
Calcification: Insights from Yogurt and Honey
http://esciencecentral.org/journals/a-n ... 000130.pdf

[ofonorow]

My parents 94 and 92 are going to be difficult to treat. Both have a-fib. My mother is on the drugs listed in the earlier message, including coumadin, which precludes vitamin K. But, she has taken this protocol willingly and is trying to get enough ascorbic acid, l-lysine, and l-proline to make progress. She hasn't had any surgery or stents. Her cardiologist this week increased her dosage of metoprolol 50 -> 100 units. She's giving the ascorbic acid, l-lysine, and l-proline to my father as feasible given his dementia.

As we have discovered, your parents can take vitamin K without interferring with INR - the K2 form, and if they are on coumadin, then this drug is "rapidly calcifying" their arteries by blocking the action of vitamin K. Hundreds of pubmed studies support this.

[gmdodaro]

I'll try to convince her to take vitamin K. Do you have a good source? I've had trouble finding K high dosage.
I talked with one of her doctors about this and he was against vit K, says coumadin works by subverting the action of vitamin K. They scared her into starting coumadin when she developed mild a-fib. They wanted to give it to me after one episode of atrial flutter!
Getting her off coumadin safely is one of my main objectives. A naturopath says he can substitute nattokainese and some other things. This is hazardous territory.

[gmdodaro]

PurposeFirst, please see this research abstract about Ca EDTA chelation, co-author Dr. Cranton: http://gordonresearch.com/inner.cfm?sit ... &pid=46695

Here's an interesting study that shows EDTA chelation can improve kidney function: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6441110

[purposefirst]

Mr Gmdodaro,
Your first link is to a Gordon article about certain benefits of CaEDTA chelation. I have no doubt that it can be beneficial. The objection of Dr Cranton (among others) concerns the RATE OF INFUSION. Apparently there is evidence that full doses (3 gms) of EDTA of any type can possibly cause kidney damage. Your article does not mention RATE!

Your second link to a PubMed abstract states:

13 subjects with chronic degenerative disorders and with renal damage were treated with infusions that included EDTA, vitamins, mineral and oral supplements.

Again RATE is not mentioned. Also the type of EDTA is not mentioned. And the treatment included vitamins, minerals, oral supplements. So under that set of conditions kidneys were helped. So what? You are comparing apples and oranges. RATE OR INFUSION is the concern.

By the way, I forgot to mention that the second chelation doc I went to see (the one who specialized in chelation therapy and recommended that I do 30 weeks of 3 gms of disodium EDTA)… said that the infusions for me would be four hours each.

Many people seem to get away with the "quick-push" of CaEDTA. I am personally acquainted with a woman who has been getting exactly that treatment every week or two for a year with apparently no problem (from the same doc who gave me the one-hour infusion). But that does not mean it is safe for the kidneys!

Gordon seems to have generally a good reputation, but besides weighing his information against Cranton's, there are two more reasons that I do not trust him:
1) In this talks and interviews on YouTube he tends to continually go off on tangents before he finishes making a point. I saw one interview in which the interviewer kept interrupting him time-after-time to get him back to the point he had started. It was almost comical.
2) In one video, Gordon said "I'm a Sagittarius" to explain a personal characteristic. I don't know if he was joking, but he sounded serious. But any doc who believes in astrology I would be leery of.

Dr Cranton also has a good reputation, and I repeat, he strongly warns against the quick push. Another doc very experienced with chelation is Dr Hunninghake – you can find his talks on YouTube. And now you can add Dr Johnwen's view on the subject. Why take a chance when you have alternatives?

You mentioned EECP for treating heavy metals. I know nothing about it so I looked it up. It seems to be a treatment for dealing with atherosclerotic plaque and not about heavy metals, not even indirectly, as far as can tell from my brief look. Are you sure?

In regard to osteopenia, I very highly recommend Dr Levy's book, "Death by Calcium."