Vitamin C and Mineral Powder and other things

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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Re: Vitamin C and Mineral Powder and other things

Post Number:#16  Post by ofonorow » Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:37 am

Very good points.

For me, the dosage of vitamin D3 you are taking is higher than I would recommend or than I would take myself, as are your resulting blood levels. So in a way we are in violent agreement. I just object to the word "toxicity" being used with respect to any vitamin without qualifications.

I am interested whether you ever get colds during the winter (whether your high blood levels are protective.)

And I assume you are taking vitamins K and A to balance your high levels, correct?
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Re: Vitamin C and Mineral Powder and other things

Post Number:#17  Post by purposefirst » Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:05 pm

Owen said,
For me, the dosage of vitamin D3 you are taking is higher than I would recommend or than I would take myself, as are your resulting blood levels. So in a way we are in violent agreement. I just object to the word "toxicity" being used with respect to any vitamin without qualifications

The official blood range for D3 is between 32-100 ng/mL. I'm at 54 ng/mL. It seems to me that according to Dr. Levy that is where I should be (in the lower part of the range). That is about what my reading was 5 months prior also. Apparently I need 7,000 IU to put me at that reading. So I do not see what you see as not being okay. Also, it seems like if you disagree with me on this point, you are also disagreeing with Dr. Levy. (???)

In regard to use of the word "toxicity," I can understand your aversion to that word in regard to any vitamin considering how mainstream medicine treats vitamin therapies... However, if any particular vitamin or nutrient used in excess begins to cause harmful effects, then it is appropriate to use the word "toxic" in that regard -- as does Dr. Levy in regard to excessive vitamin D3.

I am interested whether you ever get colds during the winter (whether your high blood levels are protective.)

I doubt if I've had a real cold since upping my vitamin D about a year ago

And I assume you are taking vitamins K and A to balance your high levels, correct?

Yep, 15-30 mg of K2 (Mk 4) + LE Super K; and cod liver oil + A in my multi.

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Re: Vitamin C and Mineral Powder and other things

Post Number:#18  Post by johnyascorbate » Tue Nov 18, 2014 2:57 pm

Vitamin A is a Vitamin K antagonist when taken in "large doses," and when taken in excessive amounts Vitamin A can cause hemorrhage. For those of use who do take both Vitamin K and Vitamin A either from a multi-vitamin or in separate supplement form, I believe the extra Vitamin A is canceling out the Vitamin K we are taking as well. Can anybody at the forum shed some more light on this interaction?

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Re: Vitamin C and Mineral Powder and other things

Post Number:#19  Post by purposefirst » Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:19 pm

Furthermore, Owen, why do you consider the 7000 IU of vitamin D I'm taking to be "high levels" if my bloods test shows that I'm in the LOWER part of the acceptable range at that dose?

For example: You would not consider someone who was taking 8 gms of C and had a bowel tolerance of 50 gms to be taking a "high" amount of C, right? But if that same person had a bowel tolerance of 9 gms, then 8 gms would be considered to be on the high side for that person.

In other words, it depends. If my body needs, and is using, 7000 IU, and reads in the lower range, then in my case that amount is not "high," but adequate. If there is something I'm not considering, please correct me.

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Re: Vitamin C and Mineral Powder and other things

Post Number:#20  Post by ofonorow » Wed Nov 19, 2014 10:49 am

I am not an expert in vitamin D - but I know the ranges have been elevated and I find that my lowly 35 ug completely protects me from infection. I take 25,000 vit A, 1 Super-K and my UV/B light plus now 2000 iu D3. My bones are rock hard (So hard my dentist could not remove all of my wisdom teeth.)

johnyascorbate wrote:Vitamin A is a Vitamin K antagonist when taken in "large doses," and when taken in excessive amounts Vitamin A can cause hemorrhage. For those of use who do take both Vitamin K and Vitamin A either from a multi-vitamin or in separate supplement form, I believe the extra Vitamin A is canceling out the Vitamin K we are taking as well. Can anybody at the forum shed some more light on this interaction?


Something is mixed up in the paragraph. Where has it found that excessive amounts of vitamin A can cause hemorrhage? (Did you mean vitamin K???)
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Re: Vitamin C and Mineral Powder and other things

Post Number:#21  Post by johnyascorbate » Wed Nov 19, 2014 3:00 pm

http://naturaldatabase.therapeuticresearch.com/nd/PrintVersion.aspx?id=964&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

"Vitamin A toxicity is associated with hemorrhage and hypoprothrombinemia, possibly due to vitamin K antagonism (505). High doses of vitamin A could increase the risk of bleeding with warfarin. Advise patients taking warfarin to avoid doses of vitamin A above the Tolerable Upper Intake Level of 10,000 units/day for adults."


http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins/vitaminK/

"Large doses of vitamin A and vitamin E have been found to antagonize vitamin K (8). Excess vitamin A appears to interfere with vitamin K absorption, whereas vitamin E may inhibit vitamin K-dependent carboxylase activity and interfere with the coagulation cascade (99)"

Both statements are saying that A antagonizes K which undoubtabley could lead to clotting problems. It even says A interferes with K's absorption. I am curious as to what doses will cause this antagonism and how apart these two vitamins should be taken together, if need be.

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Re: Vitamin C and Mineral Powder and other things

Post Number:#22  Post by ofonorow » Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:19 am

Regarding first link - please quote the paragraph as I could not find it and stopped after reading..

vitamin A might do more harm than good. In an analysis of studies, taking vitamin A supplements alone or in combination with other antioxidants is associated with an increased risk of mortality from all causes (15305).


Because I know the above statement is UNTRUE. This is not the Vitamin A Foundation, but a Finnish study on Beta Carotene that reported this was later reanalyzed by researchers from YALE - and when the antioxidants were reanalyzed in toto (not isolated) there was not such negative effect.

In this case at least, this page is reporting known faulty information.

We would be interested in published cases of bleeding due to high vitamin A intake - and what drugs the bleeders were taking at the time.

Here is an old page, links probably out of date, but the relevant message is:

http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/bash.htm
Antioxidant Combo Decreases Smokers' Cancer Risk ...

NEW LOOK, OLD FINNISH DATA! contradicts long held and widely reported belief that beta carotene increases cancer risk in smokers...

In the 'new' study, researchers from Yale University and other US institutes together with colleagues from the National Public Health Institute in Helsinki, Finland analysed the same data but looked at the total intake of antioxidants, including selenium, vitamin E, vitamin C as well as carotenoids and flavonoids, rather than one single antioxidant.

The researchers report that smokers in the top quintile of dietary antioxidant intake had a 16 per cent lower risk of lung cancer compared to those with the lowest intake.

Smokers who ate large amounts of meat had a 25 per cent decrease, despite red meat having a high oxidative effect.

The results counter the earlier findings of the Finnish ATBC study, carried out in the 90s, which found an increased risk of the disease for smokers with high beta-carotene intake.
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Re: Vitamin C and Mineral Powder and other things

Post Number:#23  Post by johnyascorbate » Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:50 am

Here is the paragraph that it came from-

Interactions with Drugs:

HEPATOTOXIC DRUGS
Interaction Rating = Moderate Be cautious with this combination.
Severity = High • Occurrence = Possible • Level of Evidence = C
Excessive doses of vitamin A can cause hepatotoxic effects, ranging from elevated liver enzymes to liver failure (7135, 82554). Taking high doses of vitamin A in combination with other potentially hepatotoxic drugs might increase the risk of liver disease. Advise patients against combining high doses of vitamin A with other hepatotoxic drugs. Some drugs that can adversely affect the liver include acetaminophen (Tylenol), amiodarone (Cordarone), carbamazepine (Tegretol), isoniazid (INH), methotrexate (Rheumatrex), methyldopa (Aldomet), and many others.

Vitamin A is a Vitamin K antagonist and interferes with the absorption of Vitamin K, as both links I posted earlier show.. All I would like to know is if the absorption K affects the absorption when only taken together? or if presence in the blood affects it. Also, how much Vitamin K antagonizes Vitamin A? I would really like to know if anyone has an idea.

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Re: Vitamin C and Mineral Powder and other things

Post Number:#24  Post by ofonorow » Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:46 am

I am still confused (which seems to be an all too recurring condition for me these days). Where in this paragraph does it say anything about vitamin A and bleeding?

HEPATOTOXIC DRUGS
Interaction Rating = Moderate Be cautious with this combination.
Severity = High • Occurrence = Possible • Level of Evidence = C
Excessive doses of vitamin A can cause hepatotoxic effects, ranging from elevated liver enzymes to liver failure (7135, 82554). Taking high doses of vitamin A in combination with other potentially hepatotoxic drugs might increase the risk of liver disease. Advise patients against combining high doses of vitamin A with other hepatotoxic drugs. Some drugs that can adversely affect the liver include acetaminophen (Tylenol), amiodarone (Cordarone), carbamazepine (Tegretol), isoniazid (INH), methotrexate (Rheumatrex), methyldopa (Aldomet), and many others.


This is a poor attempt (by someone) to connect a non existent "vitamin A causes liver toxicity" with drugs that deplete glutathione (GSH) liver. There is no relation. Vitamin A is not toxic to the liver, and as evidence, NO ONE HAS DIED from the supposed vitamin A toxicity (other than the man who consumed over 3 million iu drinking carrot juice - so even that was likely beta carotene.) I posted the Davis article elsewhere, but here it is again for reference

http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/journal/mega2.1.html )

If vitamin A was really toxic there would be deaths reported with some frequency.

Again, the liver stores vitamin A because there can be periods when it isn't available in the diet (or during hibernation of some species) and we DIE if we don't have enough vitamin A. We have evolved so that the liver slowly emits its supply into the blood stream to keep us alive during shortage. It is not liver toxicity, it is simply a storage mechanism for a vital fat soluble substance required for life and health.

Now, why is vitamin A the only vitamin stored in the liver? I don't know, maybe vitamin D is similar, but we get vitamin D from the sun.

Vitamin K is made by intestinal flora - which generally solves the problem of inadequate vitamin K in the diet.

Vitamin C is made by almost all other species (in the liver :-)
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Re: Vitamin C and Mineral Powder and other things

Post Number:#25  Post by johnyascorbate » Fri Nov 21, 2014 1:54 pm

I am still confused (which seems to be an all too recurring condition for me these days). Where in this paragraph does it say anything about vitamin A and bleeding?

Sorry Owen I posted the wrong paragraph- This is what i meant to post. It's from the same site.

Vitamin A toxicity is associated with hemorrhage and hypoprothrombinemia, possibly due to vitamin K antagonism (505). High doses of vitamin A could increase the risk of bleeding with warfarin. Advise patients taking warfarin to avoid doses of vitamin A above the Tolerable Upper Intake Level of 10,000 units/day for adults.


Based on that tidbit, and what it says here, which is on the LPI site ....
Large doses of vitamin A and vitamin E have been found to antagonize vitamin K (8). Excess vitamin A appears to interfere with vitamin K absorption, whereas vitamin E may inhibit vitamin K-dependent carboxylase activity and interfere with the coagulation cascade (99).


... Do you think taking Vitamin K and A together presents any kind of problem in regards to absorption or coagulation?

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Re: Vitamin C and Mineral Powder and other things

Post Number:#26  Post by ofonorow » Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:34 pm

No interaction in my personal experience - or knowledge previous to this assertion in this post.

The problem here is that vitamin A promotes cell differentiation, which means (if you subscribe to the stem-cell theory of cancer) that it is a potentially a strong and exceptionally cheap way to control cancer. In fact, there have been several reports that we have posted where vitamin A is as effective or more effective, especially for soft cancers like leukemias, than standard chemotherapies.

In my humble opinion, the reason there are so many attacks and false studies regarding vitamin A is to try and deal with this inexpensive competition to the Cancer Industry - chemotherapy. The propaganda has been VERY effective, and I fear that the Vitamin D Council, and even Life Extension has fallen prey to the vitamin A fear - because there are studies after all (Please read Hickey's TARNISHED GOLD!!)

Just keep in mind that there is a strong economic incentive to create false science about vitamin A so we have to be careful.
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Re: Vitamin C and Mineral Powder and other things

Post Number:#27  Post by pamojja » Mon Nov 24, 2014 4:05 pm

johnyascorbate wrote:All I would like to know is if the absorption K affects the absorption when only taken together? or if presence in the blood affects it. Also, how much Vitamin K antagonizes Vitamin A? I would really like to know if anyone has an idea.


Got only once in 2012 serum vitamin K1, Vitamin A and Retinol-binding protein tested:

9,94 - vitamin K1 (0.22-2.28 µg/l)
501 - vitamin A (425-831 µg/l)
44 - retinol binding protein (40-60 mg/l)
76 - 25(OH)D3 (30-100 ng/ml)

At an avarage daily intake during that year of:

5,6 mg - vitamin K1
19 mg - vitamin K2-mk4
360 µg - vitamin K2-mk7
4,8 mg - Retinol, vitamin A
2,1 mg - Beta carotene
300 µg - vitamin D3
350 mg - Alpha tocopherol, vitamin E
370 mg - Gamma, Delta + Beta tocopherols
140 mg - Tocotrienols

Therefore, with far above the upper limit intake of 10.000 IU serum Retinol came back rather mediocre. Also vitamin E exposed no antagonizing to K1.

With that mix I don't experience any bleeding issues.
Adding only one baby aspirin is a different story - I immediately get bloody stools.

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Re: Vitamin C and Mineral Powder and other things

Post Number:#28  Post by johnyascorbate » Fri Dec 05, 2014 7:06 pm

Regarding Vitamin A's interactions and absorption with other fat soluble vitamins, here is a very recent study that sheds some much needed light on the subject- This study concludes that there is major competition between the fat soluble vitamins (A, D, E, K) for proper uptake, and taking them together leads to poor absorption of Vitamins D,E, and K. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308814614013880

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Re: Vitamin C and Mineral Powder and other things

Post Number:#29  Post by purposefirst » Sat Dec 06, 2014 10:32 pm

Thanks, Johny, looks like good info.

Consequently I'll endeavor to space my vitamin A intake separate from E, D, K.

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Re: Vitamin C and Mineral Powder and other things

Post Number:#30  Post by ofonorow » Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:41 am

Highlights

• Vitamin A, D, E and K display different absorption sites in mouse intestine.
• Vitamin E may prevent vitamin A oxidation and increases its intestinal absorption.
• Vitamin D, E and K common uptake pathways would explain the competitions observed.


From the first bullet, I don't understand the problem. Each vitamin is absorbed in a different portion of the mouse intestine, so where does the supposed competition come from?? (Maybe the "uptake pathways" is on the surface of the cell? i.e. uptake from the blood and not from the GI tract? Anyone who reads the full article, please let us know.)

Of interest, most of these Fat Soluble Vitamins (FSV) ride around in the blood on the so-called "bad" LDL cholesterol. (In theory, taking statin cholesterol-lowering drugs might explain the "competition.")
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