Questions about Lp (a)

[FredL]

Hello Owen and fellow vitamin c enthusiasts,

I have a question about younger people that are in sports. Running for example makes the heart work hard. Seems logical that lack of vitamin c will cause injury which we know will trigger the lp (a) response.

So to check this young adult would a lp (a) blood test be the right approach? Is there reading on dosage for vitamin c for teens or pre teens.

Which test would one order?

Seems to me there are lots of young people out there damaging themselves.

Thank you

[Johnwen]

If your going through your doc ask him to do a CMP-14 (Comprehensive Metabolic Panel 14)
Normally this includes LP(a)

If going to use a lab service on line just get the LP(a) or the CMP(14) but it's kind of a pricey test.

[purposefirst]

FredL,
Request that the Lp(a) score be "measured," not calculated.

[FredL]

thank you!

[ofonorow]

You are a very intelligent individual. Checking your Lp(a) at any age is a wonderful idea, although I will say that if you are taking our RDA (at least 6000 mg of vitamin C daily) and have done so for years, I suspect you don't have elevated Lp(a).

I remember the finding in autopsies of our young soldiers during the Korean war. Many had massive "heart disease" (atheroclerotic plaques) while I don't believe the Koreans did. American diet? But it shows that young people can be "timebombs" for a heart attack too.

The idea that exercise might contribute to the stress on the arteries is interesting.. Does anyone remember Jim Fix?

Again, simply taking GULO-replacement dosages of vitamin C, plus other antioxidants for insurance (vitamins A, E, etc.) should help avoid any unwelcome consequence of exercise.

[jimmylesante]

Young runners- i think of two things
1)They put a lot of mechanical stress on their hearts when running-but when they aren't, their pulse rate may be anything from 40-60 which means a lot less mechanical stress overall.
2)As they keep running and exercising through life- they may even begin getting atherosclerosis if their diet is not efficient, but because their heart muscle is fit and strong and coarsing with blood flow, it starts making new bypasses on it's own in order to continue the work load.
Just my supposition--of course the enzymes produced by muscles are anti inflammatory and perhaps they have an effect on preventing damage to the vascular system.

[blade]

You are a very intelligent individual. Checking your Lp(a) at any age is a wonderful idea, although I will say that if you are taking our RDA (at least 6000 mg of vitamin C daily) and have done so for years, I suspect you don't have elevated Lp(a).

I remember the finding in autopsies of our young soldiers during the Korean war. Many had massive "heart disease" (atheroclerotic plaques) while I don't believe the Koreans did. American diet? But it shows that young people can be "timebombs" for a heart attack too.

The idea that exercise might contribute to the stress on the arteries is interesting.. Does anyone remember Jim Fix?

Again, simply taking GULO-replacement dosages of vitamin C, plus other antioxidants for insurance (vitamins A, E, etc.) should help avoid any unwelcome consequence of exercise.

I'm getting your book, it should be here by the 19th, but the best way to lower LpA is to take 6+grams of vit C?

I don't really understand Lpa, heart disease, and vit C all work? is there a page/post that talks about it, or I bet it's in your book?
Practicing Medicine Without A License? The Story of the Linus Pauling Therapy for Heart Disease


Well, golly, gee, whiz, It seems I can also google it up:
and find out the when you have no/low Vitamin C, LpA fills in for Vit C and then tries to fill in and repair lesions in the arterial wall caused by mechanical stress, free radicals, and/or sub-optimum collagen synthesis.
The problem is, LpA is not vitC and using LpA results in chronic atherosclerosis

Pauling, et al,learned Vitamin C deficiency promoted the development of atherosclerotic plaque and that supplemental vitamin C prevented its development and the accumulation of Lp(a) in the arterial wall. They also suggested that depletion of vitamin C increases the permeability of the vascular wall, thereby contributing to the infiltration of Lp(a) and leading to plaque formation and mural thrombosis. In chronic vitamin C insufficiency, the prolonged action and accumulation of Lp(a) may result in the development of plaque (mural thrombosis) and adverse events like heart attacks and strokes related to occlusive thrombosis.
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/fw12/lipoprotein.html

I've spent my life not getting enough VitAmin C, I might be fulll of plaques,
so the question is, how do I reduce atherosclerotic plaques?

I need to take 6+grams vitamin C
6grams lysine
just to prevent more plaques?
or
to get ride of plaques and help my arteries get "unhard" I need vit K/k2 and more vit C?

I think that about sums it up...
what I don't understand is why do so many other sites/people/MDs, tell you that you have to do so much other stuff to lower your chance of heart disease?
It gets rather confusing!

[blade]

Is a persons LDL number related to LpA?

so by gettting mog vitamin C, which will lower LpA, would that also lower LDL?

so if someone has high LDL, they are likely needing more vitamin C?>


Is is LpA not related to LDL and only shows if you are low in Vitamin C?

[blade]

Is this summary accurate?
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/artic ... uling.aspx

[ofonorow]

Lot to digest/respond to. Hopefully the book will answer many questions. It is based on what I used to tell callers, many of them doctors, over and over and over on the phone. Finally decided to write the book to try and convey the basic information and our experience.

Lp(a) would (or used to be) included with the LDL number, as it is a form of LDL - but with a "sticky" apo(a) protein on the surface.

In my opinion, ordinary LDL (that is not Lp(a)) is harmless. More than harmless, necessary and important to your health (as it carries around many fat soluble nutrients, such as vitamin E, CoQ10, etc. and is used to manufacture all your sex and steroid hormones.)

According to the Pauling theory, Lp(a) acts as a surrogate for your low vitamin C intake, creating plaster casts to keep your arteries from rupturing. It is a good thing considering the alternative.

The reason Pauling should be considered for another Nobel prize (posthumously) is for the idea that lysine (and later proline) can work as Lp(a) binding inhibitors and "even dissolve aterial plaques."

I am personally not certain why the therapy always seems to work so fast for people in severe pain. Reports are cessation of pain in 10 days, and they report painting their homes in 30 days!! But I am quite certain that maintaining the Pauling protocol, perhaps lowering the dosage as the Lp(a) number reaches zero, will lead to a healthy and apparently rejuvenated cardiovascular system. The only important addition seems to be adding vitamin K if calcium is detected in the arteries.

[blade]

In my opinion, ordinary LDL (that is not Lp(a)) is harmless. More than harmless, necessary and important to your health (as it carries around many fat soluble nutrients, such as vitamin E, CoQ10, etc. and is used to manufacture all your sex and steroid hormones.)

According to the Pauling theory, Lp(a) acts as a surrogate for your low vitamin C intake, creating plaster casts to keep your arteries from rupturing. It is a good thing considering the alternative.

I am taking 15grams vit C and 4-5grams lysine
-I am not to exceed 6grams lysine?
-should I also add proline or is lysine enough?

[color=#000080]
The reason Pauling should be considered for another Nobel prize (posthumously) is for the idea that lysine (and later proline) can work as Lp(a) binding inhibitors and "even dissolve aterial plaques."

I am personally not certain why the therapy always seems to work so fast for people in severe pain. Reports are cessation of pain in 10 days, and they report painting their homes in 30 days!! But I am quite certain that maintaining the Pauling protocol, perhaps lowering the dosage as the Lp(a) number reaches zero, will lead to a healthy and apparently rejuvenated cardiovascular system. The only important addition seems to be adding vitamin K if calcium is detected in the arteries.[/b]

I am taking 1-2 super K tabs from Life Extension/day, I dont know how much plaque I have or if it has calcium, but I dont seem harm in taking extra K/k2.
even though I eat Kale/spinach/broccoli
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tnam ... t&dbid=112

[blade]

Do Pauling followers have a serum level limit for Lp(a)?
or is it just best to be under 20mg/dl?

Also - does this theory claim reversal of calcified plaque? Or uncalcified plaque? Or both?
I'm reading Practicing-Medicine-Without-License-Handbook and I dont see anything about Vit K1, k2, k3 except pg 104

[ofonorow]

As reported in the book, a medical school professor measured the effect of PT on his Lp(a) levels.

Vitamin C and lysine reduced his elevated Lp(a) about 30% over the course of 1 year. (An amount generally credited to vitamin C) but then he added proline. A year later, his measurement showed his Lp(a) was ZERO. He called me immediately after this measurement.

So yes, there is a proline binding site on Lp(a) like the lysine binding site, and the addition of proline seems to be a powerful addition to the Pauling therapy for inhibiting the binding of Lp(a) to the arterial wall.

I am taking 15grams vit C and 4-5grams lysine
-I am not to exceed 6grams lysine?
-should I also add proline or is lysine enough?

Hopefully I justed answered your question. If you don't currently have heart disease or elevated Lp(a) you may not have to add proline, but for those that do, adding proline seems to magnify the anti-CVD effects.

We recommend not exceeding 6 grams lysine (as 2.5 g daily worked for my uncle) and Johnwen has found that the maximum tolerable limit (if you will) is probably around 14 grams daily.

But there are lots of people who didn't want to take any chances! One person circa 1996, took 6 servings of Heart Technology daily (instead of 2 or 3) so he was getting, what, 18 g of lysine (and a lot of proline) without any apparent harm.

And remember you are probably getting 1 to 2 grams of lysine in your food.

[blade]

[color=#000080]
Hopefully I justed answered your question. [b] If you don't currently have heart disease or elevated Lp(a) you may not have to add proline, but for those that do, adding proline seems to magnify the anti-CVD effects.

We recommend not exceeding 6 grams lysine (as 2.5 g daily worked for my uncle) and Johnwen has found that the maximum tolerable limit (if you will) is probably around 14 grams daily.

But there are lots of people who didn't want to take any chances! One person circa 1996, took 6 servings of Heart Technology daily (instead of 2 or 3) so he was getting, what, 18 g of lysine (and a lot of proline) without any apparent harm.

And remember you are probably getting 1 to 2 grams of lysine in your food.[/b]

how do I determine if I currently have CAD?
LpA test?
I had a stress test, I passed
I've stopped having arrhythmias/palpitations (although they were never confirmed via heart monitor(24 hours), EKG at ER, stress test...but I havent "felt" weird, since PT therapy with extra magnesium(800mg)
Ive been taking 6-14,000 mg Vic (60-100mg/kg)
All I need to do know is lose some fat, to reduce my e2, increase my T/E and look better for the ladies

[leshoward]

Johnwen: Basic question re Lipid profile..Per NMR:
In 6 mos:
LDL-P went from 1285 to 1728
Tot Chol went to 220 from 204
Trigs went to 84 from 75

Would the increase in my Trigs(75 to 84) explain the rather big increase in LDL Particle number?
Thanks!