evidence Pauling Therapy works?

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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blade

evidence Pauling Therapy works?

Post Number:#1  Post by blade » Sun Feb 01, 2015 6:53 pm

I mentioned this before, but I thought others might find it interesting.

All my life my mom has always bruised easily. Just a few bruises, mostly on her legs, she always said she was "delicate" and bruised easily

I got her taking vitamin C, a few grams/day
2+ weeks later, she and I were talking via phone and I was telling her how it made sense you don't hear about vitamin C and heart disease, and you can't really "know" vitamin C is doing anything for you without a lpa test(maybe), but I don't see a downside to a few grams a day, maybe 500grams/hourly, of vitamin C, if you don't use it, you pee it out.
oh, vitamin C helps strengthen blood vessels, which should help you, do you have any bruises?

She looked and no, she had no bruises, she couldnt recall the last time she was bruise free.

Since that conversation, she's been off vitamin C therapy...she's been traveling via train and not able to access her vitamin C.
Yesterday, she arrived at her destination, broke out her vitamin C and looked at herself.
Lots of bruises.

she's back on vitamin C so they should heal, and then not reoccur if she stays on her vitamin C. I tell her not to stop taking it, but parents, what can ya do?
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Re: evidence Pauling Therapy works?

Post Number:#2  Post by exitium » Mon Feb 02, 2015 7:27 am

I would be inclined to believe its the vit C having a positive effect....especially if she has low cholesterol numbers.

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Re: evidence Pauling Therapy works?

Post Number:#3  Post by ofonorow » Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:20 am

maybe this horse you led to water will drink?
Owen R. Fonorow
HeartCURE.Info
American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year

blade

Re: evidence Pauling Therapy works?

Post Number:#4  Post by blade » Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:21 pm

exitium wrote:I would be inclined to believe its the vit C having a positive effect....especially if she has low cholesterol numbers.

I think it's the vitamin C because she hasnt changed much else in her diet
she is on medication for high cholestrol

blade

Re: evidence Pauling Therapy works?

Post Number:#5  Post by blade » Mon Feb 02, 2015 2:10 pm

ofonorow wrote:maybe this horse you led to water will drink?

I don't understand what you are saying here.

My parents have benefited from my advice over the last 4 years and do what I say to do, which is why both of them area taking vitamin C. I was pointing out a change my mom thought she had from PT, and then more evidence to support that claim.

I pointed out what I thought was evidence that PT is doing something measurable, and the only other way to quantify it doing anything was a blood test for total cholesterol (maybe) or Lpa.

interesting is the other way to test PT is via blood test.
I started PT* until december.
I had a stress test i november
after the test
I had asked the MD about niacin/vit C/ and welchol/Colesevelam Hcl.
he said
niacin is useful
vit C is hogwash
Colesevelam Hcl is rx only and he'd need a blood test
I stopped eating my bucket of chicken and said, mmnwnmmhhat...what? I know it's high
I said, I might get the test, I'd let him now and I left

here's what I don't know
From what I understand, welchol is only useful if you eat fat, as welchol binds to the pancreatic lipases/acids(which are made from fat/cholesterol) and prevents them from being reabsorbed Forcing the body to use more fat/cholestrol to bind to the bile acids
.,so If my diet only gets fat from omega-3s/EFAs/ and avocados, which help me absorb nutrients from my veggies/fruit. I dont see welchol helping me, since I think it will impeded asbortion of 25% of my dietary fat.


*more intentionally

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Re: evidence Pauling Therapy works?

Post Number:#6  Post by exitium » Tue Feb 03, 2015 7:27 am

Do you understand cholesterol is not the enemy? Cholesterol levels in the body do not rise from consuming cholesterol. They rise from foods that cause high insulin levels, namely high glycemic carbs.

Cholesterol is the basis for many hormones in the body so its essential. Cholesterol helps the body collect and dispose of toxins. Cholesterol is used as a "bandaid" on the arterial walls when they are not properly healing due to lack of nutrients needed which is what Pauling therapy addresses.

A vast majority of the medical profession looks at cholesterol as bad, as the source of problems but HIGH cholesterol is not THE problem its often just a SYMPTOM of another underlying problem. High cholesterol levels wouldnt be responsible for clogged arteries IF the arterial walls werent damaged.

You have brought up your MD's comment about niacin and vit C a couple times now and I dont understand why. Most of us here know the underlying problem and believe in the PT regardless of what one or 1000 doctors say. I would wager that a vast majority of doctors do not believe in PT and I would wager a majority of those dont actually understand the mechanics of what causes arteries to clog or how the arteries heal. They likely knew in the early stages of medical school but that knowledge has long been forgotten and replaced by the contents of the merc manual.

When someone doesnt understanding the underlying mechanics of how a bodily process works they cant recognize the impact a nutrient can have, the only thing they can rely on is medical journals and prescription drug claims.

blade

Re: evidence Pauling Therapy works?

Post Number:#7  Post by blade » Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:58 am

exitium wrote:Do you understand cholesterol is not the enemy?


-yes and no
I used to see correlation between low cholesterol levels and CAD. Now I think that has to do with LpA
Lpa = LDL+apo(a)+aplio B-100
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/fw12/lipoprotein.html
or here:
. Experts are currently not recommending drug treatments for elevated Lp(a), but some are suggesting that those with elevated Lp(a) should be especially vigilant about lowering their low-density lipoprotein (LDL – the "bad" cholesterol), which may help lower their overall risk.
http://labtestsonline.org/understanding ... /tab/test/
so I understand low total cholesterol helps determine low CAD levels because LDL is low, so Lp(A) is low
http://labtestsonline.org/understanding ... /tab/test/

are HDL and LDL do the same thing? or do you want a low LDL to show low LpA? Maybe Im wrong? but it seems like knowing your LDL tells you your LpA, which tells you your risk for CAD?

exitium wrote: Cholesterol levels in the body do not rise from consuming cholesterol. They rise from foods that cause high insulin levels, namely high glycemic carbs.

Im not sure what makes you think I think any of that? where are you getting this info?
-I don't know about that, I told you my dad, has a total cholesterol of 114 (which is freakin low, and LDL of 74, which needs to be lower) and yet really high A1c(7+) and Fasting sugar at 144, and he does not eat high glycemic foods daily. except 8oz of Pomegrante juice before he works out..?
I think this happens because he has a T/E ratio of less than 7. It should(30+)
why do you believe he has high FS? eats too many eggs and broccoli?
I really have no idea, except I know it's bad.
which is why I mentioned this before

exitium wrote:Cholesterol is the basis for many hormones in the body so its essential. Cholesterol helps the body collect and dispose of toxins. Cholesterol is used as a "bandaid" on the arterial walls when they are not properly healing due to lack of nutrients needed which is what Pauling therapy addresses.

-Oh, I understand that. You need cholesterol to carry around stuff, but what cholesterol do you use? HDL or LDL or some variant?
My mom has high cholesterol, but her HDL is 88, and she takes a few grams of VC daily, so I'm not worried even though she has a not low LDL.

I've never been worried about cholesterol levels, cept now when I realize a high LDL also means high LpA, right?
isnt a high Lpa concerning?
and a low HDL also concerning? (since cholestrol is used to make hormones etc?)
exitium wrote:A vast majority of the medical profession looks at cholesterol as bad, as the source of problems but HIGH cholesterol is not THE problem its often just a SYMPTOM of another underlying problem. High cholesterol levels wouldnt be responsible for clogged arteries IF the arterial walls werent damaged.


-depends. high cholesterol is a symptom, but a measurable one. Do you want high LpA? so doesnt measuring LDL, give you an idea of wha lpA is? I thought it was, so you know if you have high LDL,then you have high LPA, which means you are not getting enough Vit C or SOMETHIN to help the integrity of your blood vessels.?


exitium wrote: Most of us here know the underlying problem and believe in the PT regardless of what one or 1000 doctors say. I would wager that a vast majority of doctors do not believe in PT and I would wager a majority of those dont actually understand the mechanics of what causes arteries to clog or how the arteries heal. They likely knew in the early stages of medical school but that knowledge has long been forgotten and replaced by the contents of the merc manual.

When someone doesnt understanding the underlying mechanics of how a bodily process works they cant recognize the impact a nutrient can have, the only thing they can rely on is medical journals and prescription drug claims.

what someone thinks or understands doesnt mean much, what matters is what they do, right?

What makes you think I don't understand the physiology behind PT?
Im currently fighting with my Dad's doc, nothing about cholesterol, I've never fought about cholesterol ever. I'm worried about his high E2. beause I understand how the body works,. The only time I cared about my cholesterol was when it was over 250, but I was also fat.
and I knew from donating blood(which gives a free TC test, my TC goes up with my weight.

so I took some time and dieted down to a healthy bodyfat level, which left me at TC of 152..... but as I've said, my testosterone doubled and I stronger and felt better than ever. and I was eating many more fruits/veggies and taking a few grams of VC daily(but it was calcium kind, which is bad!)
so why do I think a TC of 150 is bad?
Do you have anything, like some phyisiology to explain why it's bad?
I'd like to know more about why low Testostrone leads to higher risk of CAD?

The point of my story was mostly to show the doc wanted me to get a blood lipid test. and I wanted to see if my understanding of how welchol worked was correct, if anyone knew.
No one is relying on medical journals.
In fact I am relying on the new info about PT and I take vitamin C in 100+grams/KG a day, and a horde of other pills.....If I lower LDL, don't I also lower LpA?

I see nothing wrong with the other relationships where I see a causation with lack of heart disease.. do you??>
like:
BMI* below 25/bodyfat <15%
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22530540
low e2
T/E ration 30+
cholesterol below 150
Following all those guidelines makes a person fit. Maybe a person can be 400lbs, and take vitamin C and not have CAD, but I don't see any cons in doing all the guidelines, which makes a person look/feel good
-niacin to raise HDL

*I know the limits of BMI, which is why I have added the bodyfat, which is based on other research about health

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Re: evidence Pauling Therapy works?

Post Number:#8  Post by exitium » Tue Feb 03, 2015 12:52 pm

blade wrote:
exitium wrote:Do you understand cholesterol is not the enemy?


-yes and no
I used to see correlation between low cholesterol levels and CAD. Now I think that has to do with LpA
Lpa = LDL+apo(a)+aplio B-100
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/fw12/lipoprotein.html
or here:
. Experts are currently not recommending drug treatments for elevated Lp(a), but some are suggesting that those with elevated Lp(a) should be especially vigilant about lowering their low-density lipoprotein (LDL – the "bad" cholesterol), which may help lower their overall risk.
http://labtestsonline.org/understanding ... /tab/test/
so I understand low total cholesterol helps determine low CAD levels because LDL is low, so Lp(A) is low
http://labtestsonline.org/understanding ... /tab/test/

are HDL and LDL do the same thing? or do you want a low LDL to show low LpA? Maybe Im wrong? but it seems like knowing your LDL tells you your LpA, which tells you your risk for CAD?


After this reply I think I am just going to cut my losses, everything I write is being read into and misconstrued as you go off on a myriad of tangents.

The reason I said cholesterol is not the enemy is because its a symptom and unfortunately modern medicine chases and addresses symptoms, usually with drugs and often at the cost of true health because they ignore the underlying problem. When you address high cholesterol numbers with drugs you hid symptoms and do nothing else. There is no solid evidence that statins and the like add to longevity, so what is their point? Address the underlying problem causing the elevated cholesterol and cholesterol drops in turn.


blade wrote:
exitium wrote: Cholesterol levels in the body do not rise from consuming cholesterol. They rise from foods that cause high insulin levels, namely high glycemic carbs.

Im not sure what makes you think I think any of that? where are you getting this info?
-I don't know about that, I told you my dad, has a total cholesterol of 114 (which is freakin low, and LDL of 74, which needs to be lower) and yet really high A1c(7+) and Fasting sugar at 144, and he does not eat high glycemic foods daily. except 8oz of Pomegrante juice before he works out..?
I think this happens because he has a T/E ratio of less than 7. It should(30+)
why do you believe he has high FS? eats too many eggs and broccoli?
I really have no idea, except I know it's bad.
which is why I mentioned this before


Um I never said your dad had high Cholesterol, never mentioned your dad in this post at all. As for my belief in in high insulin levels having a huge impact on cholesterol levels, thats not speculations, its proven science as the likes of many here on the forum can attest to.....such as Johnwen who is a practicing physician who understands the process. In your statement above you even lend credibility to that by sharing that your dad eats a low glycemic diet and has low cholesterol. I myself have monitored cholesterol and have seen it rise as my carb intake does. Your big on labs and fact and they are staring you right in the face on this topic.

blade wrote:
exitium wrote:Cholesterol is the basis for many hormones in the body so its essential. Cholesterol helps the body collect and dispose of toxins. Cholesterol is used as a "bandaid" on the arterial walls when they are not properly healing due to lack of nutrients needed which is what Pauling therapy addresses.

-Oh, I understand that. You need cholesterol to carry around stuff, but what cholesterol do you use? HDL or LDL or some variant?
My mom has high cholesterol, but her HDL is 88, and she takes a few grams of VC daily, so I'm not worried even though she has a not low LDL.

I've never been worried about cholesterol levels, cept now when I realize a high LDL also means high LpA, right?
isnt a high Lpa concerning?
and a low HDL also concerning? (since cholestrol is used to make hormones etc?)
exitium wrote:A vast majority of the medical profession looks at cholesterol as bad, as the source of problems but HIGH cholesterol is not THE problem its often just a SYMPTOM of another underlying problem. High cholesterol levels wouldnt be responsible for clogged arteries IF the arterial walls werent damaged.


-depends. high cholesterol is a symptom, but a measurable one. Do you want high LpA? so doesnt measuring LDL, give you an idea of wha lpA is? I thought it was, so you know if you have high LDL,then you have high LPA, which means you are not getting enough Vit C or SOMETHIN to help the integrity of your blood vessels.?


Not sure what you are arguing here or how it "depends". High cholesterol is most commonly a side effect of poor arterial health and/or high insulin levels due to high glycemic diet. Rarely does cholesterol just become high in and of itself, there is an underlying driving factor and if you address the underlying driving factor cholesterol goes down. One can, and modern medicine often does, ignore these underlying conditions and simply targets cholesterol for no other reason than to say the labs show an improvement but as study after study has shown ignoring the underlying problem and just targeting cholesterol does not add to longevity.


blade wrote:
exitium wrote: Most of us here know the underlying problem and believe in the PT regardless of what one or 1000 doctors say. I would wager that a vast majority of doctors do not believe in PT and I would wager a majority of those dont actually understand the mechanics of what causes arteries to clog or how the arteries heal. They likely knew in the early stages of medical school but that knowledge has long been forgotten and replaced by the contents of the merc manual.

When someone doesnt understanding the underlying mechanics of how a bodily process works they cant recognize the impact a nutrient can have, the only thing they can rely on is medical journals and prescription drug claims.

what someone thinks or understands doesnt mean much, what matters is what they do, right?


I guess thats one way to look at it but peoples actions are usually a result or what they know or understand (or dont know and dont understand).


blade wrote:What makes you think I don't understand the physiology behind PT?

Im currently fighting with my Dad's doc, nothing about cholesterol, I've never fought about cholesterol ever. I'm worried about his high E2. beause I understand how the body works,. The only time I cared about my cholesterol was when it was over 250, but I was also fat.
and I knew from donating blood(which gives a free TC test, my TC goes up with my weight.

so I took some time and dieted down to a healthy bodyfat level, which left me at TC of 152..... but as I've said, my testosterone doubled and I stronger and felt better than ever. and I was eating many more fruits/veggies and taking a few grams of VC daily(but it was calcium kind, which is bad!)
so why do I think a TC of 150 is bad?
Do you have anything, like some phyisiology to explain why it's bad?
I'd like to know more about why low Testostrone leads to higher risk of CAD?

The point of my story was mostly to show the doc wanted me to get a blood lipid test. and I wanted to see if my understanding of how welchol worked was correct, if anyone knew.
No one is relying on medical journals.
In fact I am relying on the new info about PT and I take vitamin C in 100+grams/KG a day, and a horde of other pills.....If I lower LDL, don't I also lower LpA?


Thats was a general statement not necessarily directed at you or your understanding of PT. However as much as you criticize me for thinking nutrients can cure a host of maladies you continually post personal evidence to support my claims and have drank the PT coolaid. You called me crazy for saying test levels can be raised and E levels lowered by supplementation yet you posted in other threads that you cleaned up your diet and had your test levels rise. You state you understand the process by which vit C helps with CAD but fail to acknowledge that every other essential nutrient is just as critical to human function even though the impact is different.

At the end of the day I think you are chasing a lot of symptoms instead of trying to understand the underlying driving force causing the symptoms and addressing them. However since you have seen with your own eyes the changes diet has made to your body and the effect vit C seems to have on yoru mother I think its just a matter of time before your outlook begins to shift.

Anyway, in regards to your original post on your mothers bruising, thanks for sharing, I think its really cool when people can see first hand the effects that supplementation can have. I have many personal stories like that myself. Depression, brain fog, inability to sleep, afib, plantar faciitis, poor performance in the gym, inability to lose fat while maintaining muscle mass....these are just some of the issues I have addressed personally (and in many other) with simple supplementation.

blade

Re: evidence Pauling Therapy works?

Post Number:#9  Post by blade » Tue Feb 03, 2015 2:43 pm

exitium wrote:
After this reply I think I am just going to cut my losses, everything I write is being read into and misconstrued as you go off on a myriad of tangents..

The reason I said cholesterol is not the enemy is because its a symptom and unfortunately modern medicine chases and addresses symptoms, usually with drugs and often at the cost of true health because they ignore the underlying problem. When you address high cholesterol numbers with drugs you hid symptoms and do nothing else. There is no solid evidence that statins and the like add to longevity, so what is their point? Address the underlying problem causing the elevated cholesterol and cholesterol drops in turn..


Is english your first language?
it seems you are not reading/comprehending what I'm saying
what has been misconstrued? nothing, I ask questions and explain what I do and offer links to support what I say


what am saying that disagrees with anything you are saying?


nothing. Im asking some easy questions, like "does high LDL mean high Lp(a)?
no one is talking about using statins or ignoring "true" health?
no one is talking about using drugs to hide numbers....


exitium wrote:
Um I never said your dad had high Cholesterol, never mentioned your dad in this post at all. As for my belief in in high insulin levels having a huge impact on cholesterol levels, thats not speculations, its proven science as the likes of many here on the forum can attest to.....such as Johnwen who is a practicing physician who understands the process. In your statement above you even lend credibility to that by sharing that your dad eats a low glycemic diet and has low cholesterol. I myself have monitored cholesterol and have seen it rise as my carb intake does. Your big on labs and fact and they are staring you right in the face on this topic. .


Ok this was my error. My dad has high sugar and I have no idea about his insulin levels
"big on labs"? are you a female? you are constantly using adjectives to add drama to these posts,when I'm just writing them to understand.
Labwork shows what's going on in the body. My dad eats lots of veggies/some fruit, almost no proceed food, yet has high sugars..but I don't know his insulin! so maybe be needs more? I have no idea how to fix this issue,unless he uses HRT to lower E and maybe raise T
no where do I ever talk about lowering anyone's cholestrol levels.. did you think I did?

exitium wrote:
Not sure what you are arguing here or how it "depends". High cholesterol is most commonly a side effect of poor arterial health and/or high insulin levels due to high glycemic diet. Rarely does cholesterol just become high in and of itself, there is an underlying driving factor and if you address the underlying driving factor cholesterol goes down. One can, and modern medicine often does, ignore these underlying conditions and simply targets cholesterol for no other reason than to say the labs show an improvement but as study after study has shown ignoring the underlying problem and just targeting cholesterol does not add to longevity


--
doesn't it depend on the kind of cholesterol?
should I be worried about my moms HDL has almost doubled in the last year, while her LDL had gone down?
again, Im trying to see a difference between HDL and LDL, LDL has to do with LpA,and you want that low?
or is that too much of a tangent and you just like to talk?

exitium wrote:
I guess thats one way to look at it but peoples actions are usually a result or what they know or understand (or dont know and dont understand). .

-
that's the only way to look at it. you keep looking at what people know or don't know, doesnt matter
you dont have to understand much to follow directions.
no one cares what you feel/know inside, it's what you do that matters,
I thought about sending you $40000!
did that make you happy?


exitium wrote:
Thats was a general statement not necessarily directed at you or your understanding of PT. However as much as you criticize me for thinking nutrients can cure a host of maladies you continually post personal evidence to support my claims and have drank the PT coolaid. You called me crazy for saying test levels can be raised and E levels lowered by supplementation yet you posted in other threads that you cleaned up your diet and had your test levels rise. You state you understand the process by which vit C helps with CAD but fail to acknowledge that every other essential nutrient is just as critical to human function even though the impact is different.

At the end of the day I think you are chasing a lot of symptoms instead of trying to understand the underlying driving force causing the symptoms and addressing them. However since you have seen with your own eyes the changes diet has made to your body and the effect vit C seems to have on yoru mother I think its just a matter of time before your outlook begins to shift.

Anyway, in regards to your original post on your mothers bruising, thanks for sharing, I think its really cool when people can see first hand the effects that supplementation can have. I have many personal stories like that myself. Depression, brain fog, inability to sleep, afib, plantar faciitis, poor performance in the gym, inability to lose fat while maintaining muscle mass....these are just some of the issues I have addressed personally (and in many other) with simple supplementation.


this response is why I think ESL or arent comprehending what you read.
not many symtoms, just 3, high E, lowT high A1c

I never criticized you, I told you it be hard to do, cause the man has a hard time with pills and there are tons of nutrients and to go through all of them takes time, and HRT is shown to fix his issues, and the underlying cause the ONLY symptoms(not many, ESL?) I've said (lowT/high E) so why would I waste time/money trying to find one nutrient that was lacking?

-(Your theory really make me think of the guy who DOES NOT THINK gram or more of VC should be taken Because it will hinder muscle growth)
I asked him,"oh so the reason you arent Arnold is because you take VC around training time?

again, you misread things, dont understand:

I didnt change my diet and test levels started to rise,and my TC dropped over 100points.
I simply ate less food, thereby Lost fat(high in aromotase), which lowered my e2, which raised my Test...
never increased my T/lower e2 by anything more than unfatting myself
do you not believe being overweight raises e2?
I did ask you to post any studies that show food raises T and lowers E2. because I've looked into that, and if foods could raise T and lower E2, then HRT wouldnt exist(oh, it would still bc people want magic)

I did tell you what Ive read about how that's done. but you never addressed that getting old, like my dad, just lowers Testosterone. so if age makes it go down, then no nutritional aspect is going to raise it
just like no "extra nutrition" is going to give grey hair color again :lol:

you keep harping on the idea my dad is deficient in "something", but won't agree that getting old lowers Test. or turns hair grey..
yet I've got my dad eating shrimp for selinm and iodine. cause I see no downside to it and he can do that

so I asked some questions, such as LDL, isnt that number also going to tell you abut LDL?
I gave you a link/quote that shows it is
but you didnt answer anything useful, you considered it a tangent....

sheesh..
I also asked you how you quantified your A-fib was better, you never answered hat

are you trying to be useful?> it seems like you just want to talk, you've said nothing useful here
I come here looking for info and I don't get answers from you. so stop posting my threads, or be useful ..thanks

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Re: evidence Pauling Therapy works?

Post Number:#10  Post by exitium » Tue Feb 03, 2015 4:27 pm

blade wrote:sheesh..
I also asked you how you quantified your A-fib was better, you never answered hat


On the contrary I told you exactly how it was quantified and you replied directly to my statement quantifying it. Perhaps its really you that has the reading and comprehension problem here.

I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt but its clear your really not looking for help so at least theres one thing we can agree on, I should stop posting in your threads because its clearly a waste of my time.

blade

Re: evidence Pauling Therapy works?

Post Number:#11  Post by blade » Tue Feb 03, 2015 4:47 pm

exitium wrote:
blade wrote:sheesh..
I also asked you how you quantified your A-fib was better, you never answered hat


On the contrary I told you exactly how it was quantified and you replied directly to my statement quantifying it. Perhaps its really you that has the reading and comprehension problem here.

I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt but its clear your really not looking for help so at least theres one thing we can agree on, I should stop posting in your threads because its clearly a waste of my time.

oh and where it that?
if you had done that, you would have proven it and showed me up
so your just all talk and hope no one reads your babble
My point stands you dont answer questions cause you dont understand or you just want to talk to someone who has already done everything you talkabout?
which makes no sense, but that's what's happening :lol:

are you still made that I pointed out/proved his issues are not cause of some missing nutrient, but because of aging?
seems, Im trying to give you a wide lattitude, but you havent said anything useful I ask question, you don't answer and....sheesh lady, you arent worth dealing with,

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Re: evidence Pauling Therapy works?

Post Number:#12  Post by exitium » Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:09 pm

blade wrote:oh and where it that?
if you had done that, you would have proven it and showed me up


"show you up"? to what end? Im not here to show anyone up.

We just have very different ways of communicating that makes it difficult for us to clearly communicate with each other.

P.S. I also told you how to control your fathers estrogen as well.

blade

Re: evidence Pauling Therapy works?

Post Number:#13  Post by blade » Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:16 pm

exitium wrote:
"show you up"? to what end? Im not here to show anyone up.

We just have very different ways of communicating that makes it difficult for us to clearly communicate with each other.

P.S. I also told you how to control your fathers estrogen as well.

LOL
yeah I agree, but you seem so set on saying I'm wrong, when we agree about everything, cept needing to go HRT to control T and E..and not giving me answers

so how did you check your a-fib to see it was not an issue anymore?
how do you increase T without drugs?

Im very curious as I used read a forum solely on TRT, and it was all about adding in foods to fix things or changing bodyfat %, etc,
but there is just no food/missing ingredient to boost T and lower e. as otherwise those guys would likely do it

I've summed up the basics of what is shown food-wise to boost T?
I've searched and came up without finding anything you've said

so what do you have?

oh are you referring to this?
Cause this is not a concrete evidence, this is abstract feelings
exitium wrote:Well, because I used to have multiple episodes daily where I could feel my heart missing beats (easily verified by taking pulse) as well as times when it would race for no apparent reason. Now after over a year of supplementation it happens maybe once a week.

Additionally there are many other forums on the net where others have experienced similar positive changes in afib by adding supplements to diet.

.


so I did read it and did understand to not be what I wanted,.
but I do recall that I added my 2cents that the feelings I had about my own palpitations have disappeared via supplementing with MG, 400-800mg/day but does that mean I know for sure the MG has fixed the issue? no, since I also have started doing a few other things, like take VC, eat less, etc
like you picked different b12, whyd you change? when you found one that worked, what made it "work"?
your solution for afib doesnt seem to work, since you still have afib, are you still seeking a missing ingredient?
you keep saying Im set on studies and science, yet everything about VitC is based on studies and science, right?
even the "maybe stuff", which is based on nothing, I try:
like how I got my dad to start eating shrimp for iodine/selenium

the issues I question your method is once ones meds for his afib, you aren't supposed to ever come off them.
my dad does not and he never has afib anymore he won't, he found a solution to his a-fib

why is more selinum/iodine/more X better than what he takes which fixes his afib 100%?
so I have no idea how to get him to check to see if extra iodine/selenium does anything, OR if taking extra is better than just taking his a-fib pills, since now he never has any afib issues.


so is your "lowering estrogen" confirmed by a lab work? or is it abstract feelings, like guys who "swear" DIM pills lower e2, and there is lots of "stuff" about DIM assuring that it does,. yet no lab test showing DIM does lower e2.
I still take DIM, cause I dont see a downside....just like VC

exitium
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Re: evidence Pauling Therapy works?

Post Number:#14  Post by exitium » Wed Feb 04, 2015 8:03 am

blade wrote:
exitium wrote:
"show you up"? to what end? Im not here to show anyone up.

We just have very different ways of communicating that makes it difficult for us to clearly communicate with each other.

P.S. I also told you how to control your fathers estrogen as well.

LOL
yeah I agree, but you seem so set on saying I'm wrong, when we agree about everything, cept needing to go HRT to control T and E..and not giving me answers

so how did you check your a-fib to see it was not an issue anymore?
how do you increase T without drugs?

Im very curious as I used read a forum solely on TRT, and it was all about adding in foods to fix things or changing bodyfat %, etc,
but there is just no food/missing ingredient to boost T and lower e. as otherwise those guys would likely do it

I've summed up the basics of what is shown food-wise to boost T?
I've searched and came up without finding anything you've said

so what do you have?

oh are you referring to this?
Cause this is not a concrete evidence, this is abstract feelings


For starters I dont believe I ever said "you are wrong". My point has been that you are skipping over the basic essentials of optimal bodily function. You are running out onto a beach and trying to erect a house right on the sand without laying down a solid foundation to put it on, more on this later.



blade wrote:
exitium wrote:Well, because I used to have multiple episodes daily where I could feel my heart missing beats (easily verified by taking pulse) as well as times when it would race for no apparent reason. Now after over a year of supplementation it happens maybe once a week.

Additionally there are many other forums on the net where others have experienced similar positive changes in afib by adding supplements to diet.

.


so I did read it and did understand to not be what I wanted,.
but I do recall that I added my 2cents that the feelings I had about my own palpitations have disappeared via supplementing with MG, 400-800mg/day but does that mean I know for sure the MG has fixed the issue? no, since I also have started doing a few other things, like take VC, eat less, etc
like you picked different b12, whyd you change? when you found one that worked, what made it "work"?
your solution for afib doesnt seem to work, since you still have afib, are you still seeking a missing ingredient?
you keep saying Im set on studies and science, yet everything about VitC is based on studies and science, right?
even the "maybe stuff", which is based on nothing, I try:
like how I got my dad to start eating shrimp for iodine/selenium

the issues I question your method is once ones meds for his afib, you aren't supposed to ever come off them.
my dad does not and he never has afib anymore he won't, he found a solution to his a-fib

why is more selinum/iodine/more X better than what he takes which fixes his afib 100%?
so I have no idea how to get him to check to see if extra iodine/selenium does anything, OR if taking extra is better than just taking his a-fib pills, since now he never has any afib issues.


so is your "lowering estrogen" confirmed by a lab work? or is it abstract feelings, like guys who "swear" DIM pills lower e2, and there is lots of "stuff" about DIM assuring that it does,. yet no lab test showing DIM does lower e2.
I still take DIM, cause I dont see a downside....just like VC


Your posts are very difficult to follow and I dont think im alone in that, you have questions buried within questions and jump around from subject to subject. This is one reason I have not gone into a lot of detail and I am sure why many of your posts do not have any responses by others.

For me personally I can "feel" my afib episodes. Taking my pulse when I feel them verifies that it is indeed occurring. Sure its no EKG or holter monitor, but I am not going to pay for them to tell me what I already know. Ive been down that road. I was also put on a beta blocker and aspirin for the afib which had no effect. I had 3 different doctors tell me there is nothing I could do about it. I stopped meds cold turkey after 90 days and havent looked back. Your not supposed to come off afib meds according to who? The maker who benefits from you buying them every month for the rest of your life? The prescribing doctor who makes money off your constant visits and script refills?

As for me curing my afib, I would not say its cured but I believe one day in the near future it will be. It can take weeks, months or years for the body to manifest symptoms due to a missing nutrient
and it can take just as long for the body to heal itself once the nutrients are restored. One example is Dr Brownstein claims that in his practice treating people with iodine for thyroid health it takes 6-12 months at 50mg a day for people to reach iodine sufficiency. We have seen similar claims here for PT to have its full effect.

With nutrients, its not like taking a drug, we have to not only supply enough for the daily demands but also an excess for the body to repair and heal. The problem with most supplement plans is they do not take that into account. They simply use what the body needs on a daily basis as the target goal but that does not address the needs of repair and regeneration for years of previous nutrient shortage.

In a perfect world the FDA recommendation for vit C may be ample. But VC is an excellent electron donor to the immune system. In animals who have been studied, they ALL greatly increase vit C production during times of stress and illness. The FDA RDI doesnt account for that, or exposure to toxins and a myriad of other things. The reason PT calls for 6+ grams is because thats what has been deemed to be the minimum to not only give the body what it needs for day to day operation but to have the excess to repair past damage.

MG is one shortage that can cause afib, but so can the shortage of many other nutrients. My research indicated that beta blockers had no impact on life span, all they did was treat the symptom of afib and then only in some cases, had many sides and offered no tangible benefit so I opted to self treat. This endeavor involved 20+ hours of research a week for many many months. I spent my time learning about the heart and what causes it to beat and all of the things that can contribute to afib. The list is actually quite long and while PT doesnt specifically mention afib, a lot of people who have had other CAD issues had afib as well and many of them who went on PT reversed blockages and all the sides associated with them, including angina and afib. The underlying process by which PT heals arterial damage is also critical to all collagen based tissue in the body. As someone who had been struggling with some major bouts of tendinitis in my elbows from years of lifting Vit C was a no brainer so I started PT and ended up on this form.

The journey didnt stop there however, potassium and magnesium, salt and various other nutrients all play critical roles in human health and specifically heart health. As I approach 50 my list of symptoms wasnt short, as I have previously mentioned, so it became more than about just dealing with afib but improving my whole quality of life. I began to pick a nutrient and spend some time focusing on it, whats its used for by the body, the pros and cons of too much/too little. The impact that nutrient has on the bodies use of other nutrients etc. Then over about a 6 month windo I began to add things all the while continuing to research, specifically looking at work by medical practitioners experienced with the practice of using nutrients like S. Pacholick for B12, Dr Levy for Vit C and other things, cathcart, hoffer, Saul, Foster, Brownstien and the list goes on. These guys dont have studies in the journals because the journals wont publish their work, there is no money in it and it takes money out of the pockets of the drug companies who sponsor the mags. However these docs have years of medical practice under their belts and have written case studies and put together data from their practices which encompasses thousands of patients.

I also spent a lot of time on pub med looking at journal papers and at the end of the day for every paper stating something about nutrition there is often another stating the opposite. There is a complex interaction between nutrients in the body and most of the studies that are done on nutrients are done with blinders on. The average reader is unaware of the interactions between nutrients so when the article simply stated adding X caused Y they took it to heart not realizing that to someone with the knowledge of how that nutrient worked the results were as expected. One example is iodine, there are quite a few studies out there showing that adding significant amounts of iodine actually caused hypothyroidism more often than not supplementing. Most people would read that and say iodine = bad.

The truth however is that iodine is essential to life and while a great many of these studies arent wrong (ie iodine alone can increase chance of hypo) they do not paint a complete picture. The study in its strictest sense proved what it set out to and thats simply what effect does adding iodine supplementation have? But there is a bigger picture. Iodine is one of the base elements used by the body to create thyroxins so an absence of iodine means the body can not produce an optimal amount of them. You add in the ingredients for the body to make more and it will make more. So if the body can make more then why were people who supplemented more likely to go hypo? Because the process of thyroxin creation in the thyroid also creates toxic byproducts. These byproducts are neutralized by selenium based enzymes and in the absence of selenium these toxins cant be neutralized and cause thyroid damage which actually causes the hypo. Add selenium into the mix along with the iodine and the problems goes away.

So long story longer, if one is not intimately familiar with the process being discusses in many of the pub med articles they can lead one to believe something is bad or ineffective when in reality iodine supplementation has been used by many docs for many generations with excellent results. I know personally all of my thyroid labs have changed since I started iodine. I was in range and told "your fine" at the start by my symptoms said otherwise. Now my labs are still in range, generally just a couple tenths of a point higher but all my hypo symptoms are gone and I actually have to force myself to consume more food than I would normally eat to maintain my mass gained in the gym.

As for B12, its scientifically linked to fertility and if one digs hard enough you will probably find data to support that most people who use a fertility clinic are deficient in it or some other nutrient. Its also essential for proper nerve signaling and red blood cell creation. Its absorption is heavily influenced by gut health and other genetic factors with its primary source being animal protien, which as we age becomes harder and harder to digest. There is a vast population on the net suffering from B12 deficiency and they spend a lot of time on forums like this. With the input of thousands of supplementing individuals some brands clearly stood out as superior, source naturals being one of them and the brand I started with. The reason I have switched is because some of the places I used to order from online would take my order even if the product wasnt in stock and I would end up running out and have to grab what ever I could. This was also a good way for me to experiment with other brands. My testing methodology is not very scientific because I use my symptoms and how I feel as my guide. Im not going to spend the money on lab tests or doctors to tell me I am fine when my symptoms tell me otherwise.

The first thing I noticed when I started taking B12 was kind of a "high". Like I slammed a pot of coffee but without the jitters. Having consistently lifted in the gym for many years I generally dont get sore unless I have a week or more layoff. Out of no where I started getting sore, a very deep sore. Almost as if my body was able to recruit new muscle fibers previously untouched. This could be due to an improvement in nerve signalling as B12 is essential for nerve health. I also found my cardio sessions easier and my cardio performance began to improve. Once again just speculation (much like your mothers bruising and vit C) but B12 is critical for red blood cell health which carries oxygen. I alo had been suffering from an inability to sleep soundly, tossed and turned all night and maybe once every few months would actually sleep deep enough to dream. I started sleeping great and dreaming every night. Once I switched to a different brand my cardio performance waned and sleep began to deteriorate. Once back on source naturals sleep improved again and once again I got sore with no missed workouts.

When it comes to nutrition your very unlikely to find a smoking gun so to speak, most people, for a myriad of reasons, are at least mildly deficient in multiple nutrients. It didnt take me long to realize that trying to pinpoint specific causes and solution would not only be extremely difficult and time consuming but also delay the improvement in my quality of life so I simply took a holistic approach and added in everything I think I needed and then some.

As for DIM controlling estrogen, it has gotten high praise but I never mentioned DIM.

blade wrote:what someone thinks or understands doesnt mean much, what matters is what they do, right?


Not only did I do my homework (gained knowledge) but I acted upon it and I am happy to report that my actions have served me well, basically addressing all of my quality of life issues the doctors refused to acknowledge. I have done the same for friends and family and they have all benefited as well. Most of them dont want to know the intricate details and probably wouldnt understand them, they just wanted help which the medical community has been denying them, which from the sounds of things is a scenario you are all too familiar with.

Your above comment doesnt seem to ring true with your actions. One minute you tell me action is what matters and the next you refuse to act because you want the knowledge (ie proof) before you act. Believe me, I can understand and sympathize with your skepticism, I was there once myself. After all, who wouldnt be the way that modern society pushes pills at us and the docs seems to brush off all of our quality of life issues as just part of getting old.

While I didnt go into a whole lot of specifics, mainly because I dont readily have links to back my claim and honestly I am not going to waste the time digging them up, the takeaway here is that my opinion is you should start at the foundation. The same things you seem to believe about vit C apply to basically all nutrients:

1) When there is a shortage bodily process can not perform optimally
2) higher levels than what are needed for day to day operation are required to make up for a past shortage.

Think of it this way. You have a pool in your back yard. It looses 10 gallons a day to evaporation. Every sunday you run a hose over and add in 70 gallons and fill it back up. Now you go on vacation for 12 weeks and your pool is down (12*700 = 840) 840 gallons. You get home on a sunday and its back to your normal plan, you run a hose over to the pool and put in 70 gallons. Your still down 770 gallons from where you should be. Yes, its still a pool and you can still swim buts not full (ie optimal).

You cant go on vacation from consuming essential nutrients and just take in daily requirements and make up for past shortage.


P.S. Please note none of the above was meant to be inflammatory so please dont take it that way. I wouldnt have wasted the time writing it if all I wanted to do was insult you.

blade

Re: evidence Pauling Therapy works?

Post Number:#15  Post by blade » Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:10 pm

exitium wrote:
For starters I dont believe I ever said "you are wrong". My point has been that you are skipping over the basic essentials of optimal bodily function. You are running out onto a beach and trying to erect a house right on the sand without laying down a solid foundation to put it on, more on this later.



Example, "skipping over optimal bodily function"? what are you talking about exactly? you dont point out what part you are quoting.
Is there something I seem to be missing in terms of how things work??
If so, point it out specifically, and while I'd love to run anywhere, that's not happened in many years.

I will reiterate what I've said before, you and I are in much agreement, the issues I am dealing with here is compliance/getting my dad/mom/siblings, to do what I tell them to do.
I'd told you before, I could never get my mom to workout/diet until after she got boob cancer(high estrogen?) and she slowly started doing what I said and felt better each step and now, shes a 66yo female jack lalanne.

My dad is 66, high e2/lowT, which through lots of reading, I think cause a-fib and his type 2 diabetes.
Both are correct with TRT.. I have said I dont see a missing ingredient fixing his diminished T, and I've been on other forums, based on science who look for different approaches to raising T, lowering E, all through lifestle, diet, and supplement changes.
Most of the guys there are on HRT cause none of that works.
My dad needs to lower his E asap.

Even if his high E is due to some missing ingredient, as you point it, it takes lots of time/effort and COMPLIANCE. (I can't even get the man to mostly walk, instead of the HIIT he prefers, again, emotion triumphs over logic)
Much less have him going another year with high E.





exitium wrote:
Your posts are very difficult to follow and I dont think im alone in that, you have questions buried within questions and jump around from subject to subject.

They are long and have many questions, I agree. like how this one went long, I don't know how to get them shorter,
I'm trying to ask only one question per post, but it takes away from the question without adding in some facts... do you have a solution?

exitium wrote:This is one reason I have not gone into a lot of detail and I am sure why many of your posts do not have any responses by others.

right, I need to post one question per post, but the body is interconnected, one part affects other parts, I have a hard time asking only one question,. it's like trying to put together a puzzle one piece at time with no map to look at
exitium wrote:For me personally I can "feel" my afib episodes. Taking my pulse when I feel them verifies that it is indeed occurring. Sure its no EKG or holter monitor, but I am not going to pay for them to tell me what I already know.after he had afib, he went to the ER, and later was given a holter which confirmed afib Ive been down that road. I was also put on a beta blocker and aspirin for the afib which had no effect. I had 3 different doctors tell me there is nothing I could do about it. I stopped meds cold turkey after 90 days and havent looked back. Your not supposed to come off afib meds according to who? my dad who had afibThe maker who benefits from you buying them every month for the rest of your life? The prescribing doctor who makes money off your constant visits and script refills?


My dad had afib with me 5 yrs ago, I took him to the hospital where the MD said he didnt need a stress test, as his HR was going so fast he knew it was fine.... but it scared my dad. He does not want to risk that and he sees no reason to stop the meds... and I dont see a benefit to stopping them either, only cons which is why I asked why stop them?

exitium wrote:As for me curing my afib, I would not say its cured but I believe one day in the near future it will be. It can take weeks, months or years for the body to manifest symptoms due to a missing nutrient
and it can take just as long for the body to heal itselfI know that all too well once the nutrients are restored. One example is Dr Brownstein claims that in his practice treating people with iodine for thyroid health it takes 6-12 months at 50mg a day for people to reach iodine sufficiency. We have seen similar claims here for PT to have its full effect.

With nutrients, its not like taking a drug, we have to not only supply enough for the daily demands but also an excess for the body to repair and heal. The problem with most supplement plans is they do not take that into account. They simply use what the body needs on a daily basis as the target goal but that does not address the needs of repair and regeneration for years of previous nutrient shortage.

In a perfect world the FDA recommendation for vit C may be ample. But VC is an excellent electron donor to the immune system. In animals who have been studied, they ALL greatly increase vit C production during times of stress and illness. The FDA RDI doesnt account for that, or exposure to toxins and a myriad of other things. The reason PT calls for 6+ grams is because thats what has been deemed to be the minimum to not only give the body what it needs for day to day operation but to have the excess to repair past damage.

MG is one shortage that can cause afib, but so can the shortage of many other nutrients. My research indicated that beta blockers had no impact on life span, all they did was treat the symptom of afib and then only in some cases, had many sides and offered no tangible benefit so I opted to self treat. This endeavor involved 20+ hours of research a week for many many months. I spent my time learning about the heart and what causes it to beat and all of the things that can contribute to afib. The list is actually quite long and while PT doesnt specifically mention afib, a lot of people who have had other CAD issues had afib as well and many of them who went on PT reversed blockages and all the sides associated with them, including angina and afib. The underlying process by which PT heals arterial damage is also critical to all collagen based tissue in the body. As someone who had been struggling with some major bouts of tendinitis in my elbows from years of lifting Vit C was a no brainer so I started PT and ended up on this form.

The journey didnt stop there however, potassium and magnesium, salt and various other nutrients all play critical roles in human health and specifically heart health. As I approach 50 my list of symptoms wasnt short, as I have previously mentioned, so it became more than about just dealing with afib but improving my whole quality of life. I began to pick a nutrient and spend some time focusing on it, whats its used for by the body, the pros and cons of too much/too little. The impact that nutrient has on the bodies use of other nutrients etc. Then over about a 6 month windo I began to add things all the while continuing to research, specifically looking at work by medical practitioners experienced with the practice of using nutrients like S. Pacholick for B12, Dr Levy for Vit C and other things, cathcart, hoffer, Saul, Foster, Brownstien and the list goes on. These guys dont have studies in the journals because the journals wont publish their work, there is no money in it and it takes money out of the pockets of the drug companies who sponsor the mags. However these docs have years of medical practice under their belts and have written case studies and put together data from their practices which encompasses thousands of patients.

I also spent a lot of time on pub med looking at journal papers and at the end of the day for every paper stating something about nutrition there is often another stating the opposite. There is a complex interaction between nutrients in the body and most of the studies that are done on nutrients are done with blinders on. The average reader is unaware of the interactions between nutrients so when the article simply stated adding X caused Y they took it to heart not realizing that to someone with the knowledge of how that nutrient worked the results were as expected. One example is iodine, there are quite a few studies out there showing that adding significant amounts of iodine actually caused hypothyroidism more often than not supplementing. Most people would read that and say iodine = bad.

The truth however is that iodine is essential to life and while a great many of these studies arent wrong (ie iodine alone can increase chance of hypo) they do not paint a complete picture. The study in its strictest sense proved what it set out to and thats simply what effect does adding iodine supplementation have? But there is a bigger picture. Iodine is one of the base elements used by the body to create thyroxins so an absence of iodine means the body can not produce an optimal amount of them. You add in the ingredients for the body to make more and it will make more. So if the body can make more then why were people who supplemented more likely to go hypo? Because the process of thyroxin creation in the thyroid also creates toxic byproducts. These byproducts are neutralized by selenium based enzymes and in the absence of selenium these toxins cant be neutralized and cause thyroid damage which actually causes the hypo. Add selenium into the mix along with the iodine and the problems goes away.

So long story longer, if one is not intimately familiar with the process being discusses in many of the pub med articles they can lead one to believe something is bad or ineffective when in reality iodine supplementation has been used by many docs for many generations with excellent results. I know personally all of my thyroid labs have changed since I started iodine. I was in range and told "your fine" at the start by my symptoms said otherwise. Now my labs are still in range, generally just a couple tenths of a point higher but all my hypo symptoms are gone and I actually have to force myself to consume more food than I would normally eat to maintain my mass gained in the gym.

As for B12, its scientifically linked to fertility and if one digs hard enough you will probably find data to support that most people who use a fertility clinic are deficient in it or some other nutrient. Its also essential for proper nerve signaling and red blood cell creation. Its absorption is heavily influenced by gut health and other genetic factors with its primary source being animal protien, which as we age becomes harder and harder to digest. There is a vast population on the net suffering from B12 deficiency and they spend a lot of time on forums like this. With the input of thousands of supplementing individuals some brands clearly stood out as superior, source naturals being one of them and the brand I started with. The reason I have switched is because some of the places I used to order from online would take my order even if the product wasnt in stock and I would end up running out and have to grab what ever I could. This was also a good way for me to experiment with other brands. My testing methodology is not very scientific because I use my symptoms and how I feel as my guide. Im not going to spend the money on lab tests or doctors to tell me I am fine when my symptoms tell me otherwise.

The first thing I noticed when I started taking B12 was kind of a "high". Like I slammed a pot of coffee but without the jitters. Having consistently lifted in the gym for many years I generally dont get sore unless I have a week or more layoff. Out of no where I started getting sore, a very deep sore. Almost as if my body was able to recruit new muscle fibers previously untouched. This could be due to an improvement in nerve signalling as B12 is essential for nerve health. I also found my cardio sessions easier and my cardio performance began to improve. Once again just speculation (much like your mothers bruising and vit C) but B12 is critical for red blood cell health which carries oxygen. I alo had been suffering from an inability to sleep soundly, tossed and turned all night and maybe once every few months would actually sleep deep enough to dream. I started sleeping great and dreaming every night. Once I switched to a different brand my cardio performance waned and sleep began to deteriorate. Once back on source naturals sleep improved again and once again I got sore with no missed workouts.

When it comes to nutrition your very unlikely to find a smoking gun so to speak, most people, for a myriad of reasons, are at least mildly deficient in multiple nutrients. It didnt take me long to realize that trying to pinpoint specific causes and solution would not only be extremely difficult and time consuming but also delay the improvement in my quality of life so I simply took a holistic approach and added in everything I think I needed and then some.

As for DIM controlling estrogen, it has gotten high praise but I never mentioned DIM.


sheesh and you accuse me of asking questions within questions!

I am still agreeing with most of this, that's not changed.
The issue I still have is what can I get my 66yo/lawyer(busy) dad to do?
Can I get him to try pills(which he has a hard time taking?) and give me abstract feelings about how he feels?
(recall I still live 4-5 hours from him and see him maybe 2-4x a/yr)
so it really has to come from him, much as my mom is into fitness and gets my dad healthy only because he does what she does.
I also understand the american view, we don't want to work, we want to be able to spot reduce our abs and eat whatever we want..
you and I are in much agreement that things are interconnected within the body.
still leaves me with little notions what to do next for my dad.

I understand about how you felt on B-12, I am the same way when I started eaing rhubarb./argula..\foods high in nitrates,I get a huge rush, especially when I add raw garlic.
My dad has been getting enough iodine for years, from whole eggs, which I never liked him to eat since the arachidonic acid might increase inflammation, yet he still eats about 12-18whole eggs/week,. he has .2 HS-CRP, so low inflammation.

should he eat 60eggs/week to get enough idoine?
what supplement do you take for idoine? I might start taking it. or just eat cranberries!

I only mentioned the DIM to show I am not big on drugs, I am big on solutions. DIM has science behind it, yet no studies showing it lowers e2, yet lots of great anecdotal evidence, so It's part of my "meds". I havent gotten my dad to start it yet, but soon my mom will be home(she is the one who feeds him and makes sure he gets his pills etc.
exitium wrote:Not only did I do my homework (gained knowledge) but I acted upon it and I am happy to report that my actions have served me well, basically addressing all of my quality of life issues the doctors refused to acknowledge. I have done the same for friends and family and they have all benefited as well. Most of them dont want to know the intricate details and probably wouldnt understand them, they just wanted help which the medical community has been denying them, which from the sounds of things is a scenario you are all too familiar with.

sorta....at the same time I need to know the why,so I can explain it to my lawyer parents,who want to know why they have to do this G-D "stuff".
exitium wrote:Your above comment doesnt seem to ring true with your actions. what actions? telling my parents what to do? vague accusations like that arent helping anyoneOne minute you tell me action is what matters and the next you refuse to actanother incorrect/vague accusation because you want the knowledge (ie proof) before you act. Believe me, I can understand and sympathize with your skepticism, I was there once myself. After all, who wouldnt be the way that modern society pushes pills at us and the docs seems to brush off all of our quality of life issues as just part of getting old.

reread my comment.
what someone thinks or understands doesnt mean much, what matters is what they do, right?
It makes perfect sense.
I don't need to understand any of the "why" you do stuff, do I? If I just do it
the issue you and I are having is to explain WHY you do stuff. and the issues we have with reading.
I don't refuse to act?
what have I refused to act on?
recall, any advice you actually give me something tangible, I have done,
1 gotten my dad to eat shrimp/cranberries/spinach.for.Iodine/seliume/MG
2 7grams/day vitamin C
that's it for him, lots of long ass posts and nothing else tangible for him
except the vague,"take much more of everything! once you' find what's missing, that'll fix his high E./low T!"
which is vague, you might as well say, "be awesome"
and not realistic, as I've said you cant recolor hair by a missing "vitamin" you are just aging.

besides, I have no way to go about that, as you've said, your method of testing b12, etc isnt scientific and doesnt work, as you still have afib. yet my dad, on meds for afib has never had afib since starting the meds(neighbors pool)

exitium wrote:While I didnt go into a whole lot of specifics, mainly because I dont readily have links to back my claim and honestly I am not going to waste the time digging them up, the takeaway here is that my opinion is you should start at the foundation. The same things you seem to believe about vit C apply to basically all nutrients:

1) When there is a shortage bodily process can not perform optimally
2) higher levels than what are needed for day to day operation are required to make up for a past shortage.

Think of it this way. You have a pool in your back yard. It looses 10 gallons a day to evaporation. Every sunday you run a hose over and add in 70 gallons and fill it back up. Now you go on vacation for 12 weeks and your pool is down (12*700 = 840) 840 gallons. You get home on a sunday and its back to your normal plan, you run a hose over to the pool and put in 70 gallons. Your still down 770 gallons from where you should be. Yes, its still a pool and you can still swim buts not full (ie optimal).

You cant go on vacation from consuming essential nutrients and just take in daily requirements and make up for past shortage.


P.S. Please note none of the above was meant to be inflammatory so please dont take it that way. I wouldnt have wasted the time writing it if all I wanted to do was insult you.


Im not, in fact, the opposite, I realize writing all this has been a long process for you and I greatly appreciate it

I don't understand how the pool analogy works regarding VC?
so the amount of VC I need is based on how old I am or how long I've had atrial scurvy?

Im still needing to lower my dad's e2, as that can lead to prostate cancer/death. I'm working on studies to give to his MD about lowering e2, not raising T, yet.

The problem still remains, using your pool analogy.. if he has low X, due to not getting it in his colorful diet, and missing X gives him lowT/high E, does have time to replenish X before he jumps in the empty pool and dies/hurts his health?
why not go on HRT, (go to the neighbors full pool) and fix his issues?


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