Going to see the Cardiologist next month and.........

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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89826
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Re: Going to see the Cardiologist next month and.........

Post Number:#46  Post by 89826 » Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:29 pm

Jimmy,

This pointless debating can be amusing for a little while. Nonetheless, I have had my fill. My guess is that you are seeking to defend Owen in a second-hand way after I pointed out his mistaken assertion. Who knows for sure? It doesn't much matter.

Good luck; last word is yours.

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Re: Going to see the Cardiologist next month and.........

Post Number:#47  Post by jimmylesante » Tue Oct 06, 2015 7:00 pm

Thanks for the last word. Think Owen was right that you cannot sustain coq10 with vegetables alone. Just logical. Remember the gallons.
No oils! I think you are not correct and Dr esselstyn is not correct. I'm not denying raw whole food is a good process to follow and avoid the bad fats and oils but NO oils- just can't stomach that :lol: Where were your links to this? All you suggested was some reductions in plaque on the website which may or may not have been from no oils or just a good healthy raw food diet +cessation of bad habits and some exercise.
As i quoted oils can get rid of homocysteine which is a cause of endothelial function.
I'd say going for a jog would cause high BP and thus endothelial inflammation.
Why not get your website doctor to do a test- put one group on diet with oils and one without.
To be fair it's been a tedious debate because you haven't offered anything apart from mischievious one liners and snarky comments. Perhaps for the beginning of your education you should start with this book "Fats that Kill and Fats that Heal" by Udo Erasmus
Good luck with yours.
As for Giz, i guess the positive thing from this is to not only do the Pauling Therapy but also eat well,exercise as much as you can and laugh often.

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Re: Going to see the Cardiologist next month and.........

Post Number:#48  Post by jimmylesante » Tue Oct 06, 2015 7:11 pm

Thanks for the last word. Think Owen was right that you cannot sustain coq10 with vegetables alone. Just logical. Remember the gallons.
No oils! I think you are not correct and Dr esselstyn is not correct. I'm not denying raw whole food is a good process to follow and avoid the bad fats and oils but NO oils- just can't stomach that :lol: Where were your links to this? All you suggested was some reductions in plaque on the website which may or may not have been from no oils or just a good healthy raw food diet +cessation of bad habits and some exercise.
As i quoted oils can get rid of homocysteine which is a cause of endothelial function.
I'd say going for a jog would cause high BP and thus endothelial inflammation.
Why not get your website doctor to do a test- put one group on diet with oils and one without.
To be fair it's been a tedious debate because you haven't offered anything apart from mischievious one liners and snarky comments. Perhaps for the beginning of your education you should start with this book "Fats that Kill and Fats that Heal" by Udo Erasmus
Good luck with yours.
As for Giz, i guess the positive thing from this is to not only do the Pauling Therapy but also eat well,exercise as much as you can and laugh often.

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Re: Going to see the Cardiologist next month and.........

Post Number:#49  Post by nineboy » Wed Oct 07, 2015 3:02 pm

Well saw my name somewhere in all this. On last comment I would agree.For me I'm still following Linus Paulings Therapy. Seems to be working for me at this moment. No angina, stable or unstable. Find your level of Vitamin C etc. that you can work with and eating wise you are the one who lives with it. I listened to Pauling and eat most things but try moderation in meat and sugar intake but no means perfect. I keep up my exercise walking and Gym plus 2 nights a week dancing. No need for nitro and yes I do get puffed out at high speed. In regards to Doctors etc. I do what I do and try to leave it that. They won't listen and I admire johnwen and others who give us good advice on what to do. I met with Dr Gifford Jones who also hits his head on the wall trying to get Paulings therapy brought forward. Many people just do what Linus advised and it works for many of us. Regards nineboy.

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Re: Going to see the Cardiologist next month and.........

Post Number:#50  Post by ofonorow » Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:16 am

Giz, heart disease is a food-borne illness
If this is true, Linus Pauling was wrong. I rest my case.


gizmo1955 wrote:Well, I went to the cardiologist last Thursday and as suspected the discussion was less than useful. He did not do any tests as there was no openings they were all booked up. So Owen, as you mentioned it maybe helpful to get an extension. A Thallium stress test will be done on October 20th. As we were setting this up he said "unless you want to do a cath...." I commented "NO.. as a matter of fact I would like to stay away from stents altogether,(assuming that will be the natural progression if something is found during the cath) I would like to try abscorbic acid". Then he commented "WE'RE NOT GOING TO LET THAT HAPPEN" - I said "why not?" "IT'S NOT PROVEN!" I said "that's because nobody has done any testing.." and the 5 minute appointment was over, no further discussion. He pretty much walked out except I was able ask him for a ER version of nitro, which he agreed to.

So Owen, you pretty much nailed the attitude. You're right though, it would be nice if they could work with me and monitor progress and make suggestions. I'm not sure that can happen. My guess is, unless I have some drastic changes between now and the 20th and depending what the thallium indicates, I will probably be looking for a second opinion.

89826- I take your point that both the plant based diet and PT can work together. Personally, I am trying to get back on track with the diet but I have always had issues with eating properly and it is the same with this diet. I have been able to stick pretty close to the main principles, nothing with a face or a mother, no oil (maybe a little PAM to spray a pan) etc. Sugar has been an issue as well as just eating too much and too fast. All things to work on.

Thanks to all of you for your continued insight and help. :)


Too bad, but not unexpected. And this is why most people decide not to mention they have adopted the PT to their doctors. Keep up a good amount of vitamin C and lysine until Oct 20th. We will be interested in the results.

Finally, Richard K Bernstein, one of the longest living Type 1 diabetics, adopted a low-carb/hi protein/fat diet in 1946. In the appendix of DIABETES SOLUTION, Bernstein covers some findings that are relevant to the "oils" discussion:

pg 464

After reviewing a study showing that high-carbs, not high fats, raises lipids, especially triglycerides (fat in the blood), Bernstein writes:


Furthermore, a study reported in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) in 1997 showed that a 20 percent increase in either saturated or monounsaturated dietary fat lowered the risk of stroke to one-eighth of what it was in individuals on lower-fat diets. Unsaturated fats showed no such benefit.

Diabetics die from heart failure at a rate far exceeding that of people with normal glucose tolerance. Heart failure invoices a weakening of the cardiac muscle so that it cannot pump enough blood. Most long-term poorly controlled diabetics have a condition called cardiomyopathy . In diabetic cardiomyopathy the muscle tissue of the heart is slowly replaced by scar tissue over a period of years. This weakens the muscle so that it eventually "fails." There is no evidence linking cardiomypathy with dietary fat intake or serum lipids.
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Re: Going to see the Cardiologist next month and.........

Post Number:#51  Post by Montmorency » Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:59 am

Does Bernstein say what is it about the diabetic condition that tends to induce or encourage cardiomyopathy?

blade

Re: Going to see the Cardiologist next month and.........

Post Number:#52  Post by blade » Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:32 am

89826 wrote:Gizmo, just to be clear: of course eggs are not plant food, so are to be avoided. I see that Owen praised them to you in a post above. And he talks about carbohydrates as being bad for you. That strikes me as utter nonsense. If you don't eat carbohydrates, all that is left to eat is lots of fat and protein-- foods which damage the endothelium. Plus I always look askance at people who use carbohydrates as an umbrella term. There is a world of difference between simple carbohydrates and complex carbohydrates. The former aren't good for you because they spike insulin levels and fructose stripped of fiber is injurious to the endothelium. Complex carbohydrates, i.e. starches, on the other hand are ideal food and fuel. They are the human diet.

so oatmeal, being a complex carb, is better than broccoli?
no, you need antioxidants to stop endothelium damage, so food combing seems a smart way to handle this as you need protein/w-3s and if those hurt endothelium, then eat veggies/AA/fruit to negate the damage


"arent good for you" is a vague term
a lot depends on if you are a 300lbs, 58% bodyfat person , or a 170, 10% bodyfat guy, active person vs couch potato. foods are not going to act the same way in their bodies. context matters

blade

Re: Going to see the Cardiologist next month and.........

Post Number:#53  Post by blade » Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:35 am

89826 wrote:Gizmo, just to be clear: of course eggs are not plant food, so are to be avoided. I see that Owen praised them to you in a post above. And he talks about carbohydrates as being bad for you. That strikes me as utter nonsense. If you don't eat carbohydrates, all that is left to eat is lots of fat and protein-- foods which damage the endothelium. Plus I always look askance at people who use carbohydrates as an umbrella term. There is a world of difference between simple carbohydrates and complex carbohydrates. The former aren't good for you because they spike insulin levels and fructose stripped of fiber is injurious to the endothelium. Complex carbohydrates, i.e. starches, on the other hand are ideal food and fuel. They are the human diet.

so oatmeal, being a complex carb, is better than broccoli?

no, the gov food pyramind is wrong
you dont need carbs at all to live, they are not essiental, as you can live without them.
you do need antioxidants to stop endothelium damage from, fat/protein, so food combing seems a smart way to handle this as you need protein/w-3s and if those hurt endothelium, then eat veggies/AA/fruit to negate the damage


"arent good for you" is a vague term
a lot depends on if you are a 300lbs, 58% bodyfat person , or a 170, 10% bodyfat guy, active person vs couch potato. foods are not going to act the same way in their bodies. context matters

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Re: Going to see the Cardiologist next month and.........

Post Number:#54  Post by ofonorow » Fri Oct 09, 2015 5:54 am

Montmorency wrote:Does Bernstein say what is it about the diabetic condition that tends to induce or encourage cardiomyopathy?


High blood sugar.

High blood sugar leads to glycation and various ills, e.g. nerves (and certain cells (e.g. kidneys) do not require insulin to absorb glucose, so the levels become too high inside these cells.

Nerve damage manifests first in the feet, but eventually if the sugar is too high, there is nerve damage all over the body.


Now, on to the claim made in this topic that food contains CoQ10... Here is Dr. Weil's discussion of Coq10


http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/ART03367/Coenzyme-Q10-CoQ10.html

How do you get enough from foods?
Although the body is capable of synthesizing CoQ10, Dr. Weil believes that adding foods high in CoQ10 to the diet and taking a daily supplement is advisable for the at-risk populations indicated above. A typical American diet will include approximately 10 mg of CoQ10 daily, so supplementation is usually necessary to reach the amounts that Dr. Weil regards as optimal. Foods such as fish and meats, and oils from soybean, sesame, and rapeseed (canola) are good dietary sources.


There are unreferenced claims on the Internet to the effect that certain plant foods contained CoQ10:

Luckily, vegetable sources of CoQ10 include spinach, broccoli, and cauliflower. Legumes such as peanuts and soybeans are the best non-animal sources of the substance.

http://www.onegreenplanet.org/vegan-food/all-about-coq10-and-how-to-get-it-in-your-plant-based-diet/

This first comment at the above link interesting, to say the least!

I have been a CoQ10 researcher for 43 years. Man has CoQ10 , all plants except Spinches and Broccoli have CoQ9. You would have to eat four gallon of chopped spinach daily to get you daily requirement of CoQ10. Man can\'t use Coq9 for the generation of energy or as an antioxidant. Supplementation is the only was for an older individual to get the required amount of CoQ10.
William V Udy, PhD


Comments 89826?

And this isn't really the knife in the claim that plants provide CoQ10. It is known that the human body can only absorb exogenous CoQ10 when there is bile in the digestive tract. Bile is released when fats are eaten. So even if the claim is true about Broccoli, eating it without oils and fats means that the small amount present would not be absorbed. Conclusion: Those on "plant based diets without oils" risk organ failure as they age from CoQ10 deficiency.
Owen R. Fonorow
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Re: Going to see the Cardiologist next month and.........

Post Number:#55  Post by jimmylesante » Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:52 am

I think number 89826 will shrink away, seemed trollish.

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Re: Going to see the Cardiologist next month and.........

Post Number:#56  Post by Johnwen » Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:55 am

Owen wrote;
High blood sugar leads to glycation and various ills, e.g. nerves


Couldn’t this process called the “Mallard reaction,” be prevented if a person supplements with L-Carnosine ?

BTW; I like my steaks well glycated! :D
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Re: Going to see the Cardiologist next month and.........

Post Number:#57  Post by ofonorow » Sat Oct 10, 2015 6:40 am

Possibly, but proteins binding with glucose is not the only problem caused by high blood sugar. (Think amputations and death)

During previous topics we discussed the fact that some cells, e.g. large nerves, kidney and eye cells can absorb glucose without insulin mediated transport, meaning these cells become flooded with glucose (when blood glucose is constantly high) leading to numbness/tingling (neuropathy) in the feet, kidney failure and loss of eye sight. (This was enough to get me to at least want to keep my blood sugar under control - which I thought I was (at about 110 mg/dl) until reading Bernstein who wants it maintained at 83 mg/dl.)

Turns out other large nerves, sympathetic nerves, such as the vegas nerve can also suffer damage, leading to all sorts of problems that diabetics without blood sugar control have (e.g. delayed stomach emptying, heart failure, etc.) Then learning that the nerves to the penis can also be affected, well, that about nails the coffin on not controlling blood sugar.

Of course, the problem is that Bernstein's diet is not easy.
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Re: Going to see the Cardiologist next month and.........

Post Number:#58  Post by Johnwen » Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:00 pm

To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is
research!

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Re: Going to see the Cardiologist next month and.........

Post Number:#59  Post by ofonorow » Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:22 am

I should probably look this up, but I think the Hba1c of blood sugar is a measure of glycation. If so, and if the carnosine theory works, someone should be able to supplement carnosine only (not control their blood sugars) and lower their Hba1c.

Somewhere in the Bernstein book he mentions factors that "mess with" Hgba1c testing, and I'll look as one of those factors may be Vitamin C (which can give misleading results).. No, it was a discussing of vitamin C erroneously warning that more than 500 mg becomes an "antioxidant leading to neuropathies."

Finally, Bernstein's experience shows that glycation can be temporary, and if the blood sugar is controlled, the effect won't last. However there is a point (24 hours) the glucation turns into an AGE cannot be undone.
Owen R. Fonorow
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Re: Going to see the Cardiologist next month and.........

Post Number:#60  Post by gizmo1955 » Sun Oct 18, 2015 10:23 pm

Anyone care to decipher the last couple of posts and advise if it relates to my situation? Going back to the cardiologist Tuesday and will be having a nuclear stress test. Have been on AA since August (to BT) and have seen little change if any in angina levels. (Could be a little worse, the doc put me on an ER version of nitro and it has worked pretty well but have had several occasions where I needed to supplement with a regular nitro pill) I am assuming that post testing he will recommend additional stent(s). At this point, I am leaning towards having them done. If I do, should I request the non- drug coated or the coated option? Is there a specific mfg. to ask for or stay away from, or is that outside my purview as a patient to suggest? Any and all comments or suggestions would be appreciated.


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