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 Looking for up-to-date info on Pauling Therapy 
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Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard

Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:16 pm
Posts: 9330
Location: Lisle, IL
Post Looking for up-to-date info on Pauling Therapy
Quote:
I am trying very hard to get good research information about the Pauling Therapy. I am a 59 yr old male with moderate Cardio Vascular Disease. I have 2 blockages (50%) and a very high calcium score for my age as reported by my mri of my heart. I started the prophalytic dose of the Pauling Therapy on 8-5-07, with my cardiologist's approval. He is monitoring my blood work (especially my Lipoprotein a levels). He is very doubtful this therapy will work or be advantageous for me. Since starting I have felt no changes (for the better or worse) and am trying to find some good studies or trials using
Pauline. The one web site I went to hasn't had a post in over 2 years (the one with a lot of Pauling testimonials) and various searches keep showing the same 7-8 sites with the same information, but no good convincing data or new information. I am especially interested in negative results and findings
also.

My cardiologist is having trouble figuring out if the Pauling treatment is supposed to decrease the calcium deposit and how it would do it.

I would appreciate any leads, sites, or information you could share with me.


Thank you,

J. P.


It sounds like you have a fine doctor. You are lucky!

What is the therapy? What are you taking? Are you following the protocol here: http://thecureforheartdisease.com/protocol.htm

Dosages, particularly of vitamin C are critical. At least 10,000 mg and 20,000 is probably close to optimal for someone with CVD. What is the form of vitamin C?

And no, this therapy will not directly affect calcium scores or arterial stiffness. (You can have excellent blood flow, no narrowing or blockages, and still have a high calcium count on the CT Scan. Also, you can have a low calcium score, but still
have dangerous blockages.)

The best method for reducing a calcium score is to take vitamin K. (There are discussions of the best form of vitamin K here, at our forum -> Heart Disease)

Either K1 (mgs) or K2 (mcgs). Vitamin K acts like a hormone to move calcium from soft tissue into bones. Also, make sure you magnesium at least equals your calcium intake.

What are your starting numbers? The most objective benefits are the reduction in overall cholesterol and Lp(a).

Most of the recent testimonials have been added to the forum I already mentioned.

Owen

_________________
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath


Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:40 pm
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Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard

Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:16 pm
Posts: 9330
Location: Lisle, IL
Post More
Quote:
Hello Owen,


Thank you for your quick and prompt reply. Here is additional information you asked for.

I am currently taking:

Vitamin C 3 GMS total a day (taken in 3 daily divided dosages) The bottle only says Natural Vitamin C on it.

Lysine 3 GMS total a day (taken in 3 daily divided dosages)

CO Q 10 400 mg total (200 mg twice a day)

Proline 500 mg once a day



In addition I take:

Centrum Silver one a day (has 30mcg of K in it)

Occuvite Eye Vitamin one a day

Vitamin D 1,000 international units one a day

Lipitor 20mg once a day

Lotrel 5/20 once a day



My Lipid Profile is

Total cholesterol 127

HDL 50

LDL 62

Triglycerides 76

Lipoprotein a 13mg dl



All the lipid scores were taken before starting Pauline except for the Lipoprotein (a) which was 21 mg dl before.

Except for the Vitamin K in my Centrum (30mcg), I am not getting any additional from the Occuvite. What dose do you recommend for K?


My doctor (cardiologist) said to only take the Prophylactic Dose of Pauline and that is why I am taking those dosages. Since I started it on 8-5-07 and I am tolerating that dose so well I am thinking of doubling the Vitamin C dose on December 1. However, I do not feel any different since starting the therapy. Although I have always been asymptomatic (never had chest pain or shortness of breath) I did have a cardiac cath on 3-14-07 and that was when he found the 2 blockages (50%), high calcium score excess of 2800 (calcification), 2 aneurysms with sluggish flow (stasis) and ectasia. He
classified me having moderate cardiovascular disease.


I will have to look back at the forum to see if there are entries after the 2005 one that was the last one I could find. I keep looking for some scientific evidence (positive or negative) about the Pauling Therapy. So many health care professionals I talk to don't know what I am talking about, or think I have come across some snake oil treatment modality on the Internet. It is discouraging but I keep looking and stay on it.


Appreciate more feedback and comments.

Thank you,

J.P.


The vitamin C is low - have you read Dr. Levy's STOP AMERICA'S #1 KILLER? livonbooks.com

Your doctor should too, if he limited you to that low an intake of vitamin C. (That limit is based on ignorance, not knowledge. Levy's book provides the knowledge, he reviews more than 650 studies, if memory serves.)

I'm surprised that your Lp(a) dropped on that little vitamin C, but it does support my suspicion that proline is the key to reducing Lp(a).

I think you would be wise to increase your vitamin C - starting perhaps 500 mg in between your 3 dosages, around every 4 hours. Your symptoms remind me of vitamin C deficiency syndromes.

The major standouts missing from your regimen are magnesium and a good Omega/3 oil.

I hate the lipitor, but at least you are taking a good amount of CoQ10 to counteract most of its ill effects.

Search for Ralph Lotz's posts on vitamin K2 - there are serveral sub forms, apparently, and we are talking micrograms of K2, and perhaps milligrams of k1 for the "anti-calcium" effect.

Owen

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Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath


Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:45 pm
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Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard

Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2005 3:52 pm
Posts: 1030
Location: Chandler, AZ
Post K2 and D3
The most effective K2 for reversing arterial plaque appears to be the one from natto, MK-7, a dose of 50 - 100 micrograms followed by MK-4, menatetrenone, dose from 5 - 45 mg. K1 is also helpful in building bone, but, I have seen no studies that it reverses plaque.

It would be prudent to have your physician administer a 25‑hydroxyvitamin D test. Optimal levels are around 50 ng/mL (125 nM/L). Some scientists believe up to 80% of the world's population is deficient in vitamin D. The most effective is D3. A useful dose appears to be from 2,000 - 4,000 IU daily.

I have seen no studies that affirm that a total cholesterol level of 127 is in any way healthy.
Cholesterol levels below 160 increase risk of stroke, depression, cancer and death.
People with the highest cholesterol levels live the longest.
The Benefits of Cholesterol http://www.westonaprice.org/moderndisea ... olest.html
LIPITOR increases Lp(a) while blocking COQ10 production according to the monograph at LIPITOR Canada website which is posted in part at http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/statinalert/

Linus Pauling's earliest success with angina was achieved with 6 grams of C and 5-6 grams of lysine. What is the rational scientific basis for your physician limiting the dose of these two non-toxic orthomolecular substances to 50% of the effective dose?

It is time to scrap the cholesterol theory of occlusive cardiovascular disease. Up to 75% of heart attacks occur in people with so-called normal cholesterol. Lowering cholesterol impedes immunity, lowers important hormones, impedes vitamin D synthesis, reduces fertility and increases the death rate. You may want to read LIPITOR, THIEF OF MEMORY by former astronaut and Flight surgeon, Dr. Graveline.

_________________
"Unless we put medical freedom into the constitution...medicine will organize into an undercover dictatorship..force people who wish doctors and treatment of their own choice to submit to only what..dictating outfit offers." Dr. Benjamin Rush


Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:21 pm
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Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard

Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:16 pm
Posts: 9330
Location: Lisle, IL
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Quote:
Wow how did I overlook the 4 GMS (200gms in am and 200gms in the pm) of Fish Oils (Omega 3) that I take daily? The cardiologist put me on that right after my cardiac cath and Plavix 75 mg and 1 baby aspirin 3 times a week!


Good. But Plavix/Aspirin unsafe, especially together. Ask your doctor about the last 3 Plavix trials - which were cut short because more people were dying in the Plavix group than placebo. Omega/3 will safely provide the same "anti clotting/anti platelet" function.

Quote:
He increased my Lipitor from 10 to 20mg and I don't like it either, but it took my cholesterol limit form 220 to 127. I get lab work done again on 12-21-07.


No one denies that statins reduce cholesterol. But why was your body producing it? In fact, that is precisely the problem with statins. I believe to help with the healing, and that artifically lowering cholesterol is potentially dangerous (not so much if you begin taking the correct amounts of vitamin C). This "symptom" naturally lowers itself after the body puts out the heart disease fire. I think I wrote a paper collecting all opposite view that cholesterol is your friend, not your enemy:
http://www.internetwks.com/owen/TruthChol.htm


Quote:
I thought it was the Lysine and Proline that bonded with the Lipoprotein (a) to lower it and not the Vitamin C?


Inhibiting Lp(a) binding has to do with inactivating its sticky nature to form plaques. And yes, this is what lysine and proline seem to do, but the entire problem develops from the lack of vitamin C.

Quote:
I can take Magnesium and Vitamin K supplements and no, I had not read Levy's book but I will (in act go to the library tonight and see if they have it available. Will also look at the posts later.


http://livonbooks.com

Quote:
I do have a history of Kidney Stones (Calcium Oxalate) it has been 3 years >since I passed one, but have had several episodes starting at age 28, 30, >35, 38, 41, and one at 54. I have concerns in that some readings have >suggested Vitamin C adding to that risk for forming stones. Do you have any >information on that?


Tons of discussions about kidney stones at our forum (HERE)
vitamincfoundation.org/forum

In a nutshell, according to Linus Pauling in his book HOW TO LIVE LONGER AND FEEL BETTER - stones do not form in pH neutral urine, and that is what you should strive to maintain. Do daily litmus tests. Most stones seem to form in alkaline urine - and in this case, high vitamin C as ascorbic acid is protective (Dr. Cathcart who gave extremely high doses of vitamin C to his patients never saw a kidney stone.) However, if your urine is acidic (low pH) you probably want to take at least some of your vitamin C as a salt, e.g. sodium ascorbate, which will help keep the pH of your urine higher.

Low vitamin B6 and magnesium are known to contribute to the formation of kidney stones.


Quote:
It is always a concern on dosing when you never know the effects or results your body will have on the supplements. When I first started on Plavix I was on 2 baby aspirins and I would like bruise and bleed like a hemophiliac! We finally had to redoes the aspirin and decrease it to 3 times a week because I was so sensitive to it while taking the Plavix.


Sounds like you are lucky. You worry about supplements, when generally these substances are molecules known to the body and rarely harmful, even in ver large amounts. But you readily take substances recommended by your doctor (e.g. Plavix) that are basically poisons. Keep an eye on this forum which has many pointers to the failures and dangers of Plavix, statins, blood thinners and other "wonder" drugs.

_________________
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath


Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:32 am
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Post Re: Looking for up-to-date info on Pauling Therapy
For all vitamin C users; here is the absolute, final, definite, last nail in the coffin
about vitamin C and kidney stones;


The most prevalent argument heard against vitamin C is that it causes kidney stones. C is so popular, if that were true, millions of people (and all of the animal world) would be hospitalized with kidney stone problems. Will heavy C doses cause kidney stones? Dr. Klenner says, "The urine of someone taking massive doses of vitamin C will be so acid that formation of stones will be impossible." All wild animals are continually C saturated but don’t visit vet clinics for kidney stone treatments. Every wild animal in the world except man and seven others makes .86mg/pound of C6H8O6, or vitamin C. This translates into 13 grams/day for a 150 pound goat.

Concerning the possibility of C causing or accelerating kidney stones, Dr. A. Hoffer said, "I have gone over the medical literature very carefully and so has Dr. Stone, he more carefully. So far, there is not a single report in the medical literature where this has been established. In fact, many physicians recommended that C be used to dissolve kidney stones."

"It has been suggested that high-dose vitamin C therapy increases urinary oxalate excretion and risk of kidney stones; however, work done during the last two years indicates that consumption of up to 10,000 milligrams of C a day by normal individuals on ordinary diets leads to no significant increase in oxalate output...therefore, the risk of kidney stones from C is minimal to nonexistent."

"Some of the most common dangers you will see critics charge C with are that it causes kidney stones, gouty arthritis, it destroys B-12, causes sterility, induces iron overload, disrupts blood sugar levels, disrupts DNA, and leads to diabetes."

"Almost as if in answer to each of these charges, a 1987 report to the New York Academy of Sciences stated that large quantities of C will not result in kidney stones, gout, or other problems in healthy people."

The researchers noticed that in some previous studies a higher C intake seemed to correlate with a higher oxalate excretion in the urine. Since calcium oxalate is one of the most frequently occurring components in kidney stones, this observation would deduce a potentially higher risk of the development of stones. Research conducted by Wandzilak et al., however, has shown that the increased oxalate level in urine is an in-vitro phenomenon, caused by the conversion of ascorbate to oxalate during laboratory analysis. http://www.soe.nl/res4engl.htm.

A study published in April 1999 detailing 85,557 women studied over a 14 year period proves C does not cause kidney stones. http://www.vitamincfoundation.org.

"Don't panic when you read articles about the dangers of vitamin C," says Dr. Sandra Goodman. "...thus far...they have not been proven true." "One of the best attributes about vitamin C is that no matter how much you take, even 200 grams per day cannot hurt you. The clinical evidence of tens of thousands of patients attests to the non-toxicity of vitamin C," Goodman writes.

“On my last visit to Sweden, I was told that the final evidence has been found that ascorbic acid is quite harmless. An insane person had the fixed idea that he needed ascorbic acid so he swallowed incredible amounts of it for a considerable period without ill effects. So, ascorbic acid cannot hurt you. It does not hurt your pocketbook either, since it is very cheap.” Albert Szent-Gyorgyi, M.D., Ph.D., discoverer of vitamin C; Nobel Laureate; http://www.vitaminc foundation.org.

Some of the above was quoted from; http://www.ezekielsmedicine.com. Sincerely yours,
surecure.


Sat Jan 19, 2008 5:19 pm
Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard

Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2005 3:52 pm
Posts: 1030
Location: Chandler, AZ
Post Re: Looking for up-to-date info on Pauling Therapy
Vitamin C does not cause kidney stones. Oxalate stones respond well to magnesium and B6.

127 for total cholesterol is low enough to increase risk of hemorrhagic stroke, kill your libido, get you depressed and get you cancer.
There is zero benefit for statins that has ever been shown for any man over 65.

The only benefit statins have is that they raise vitamin D levels.
Better to take at least 5,000 IU Daily of vitamin D3. It costs 7 cents per day.

FREE DOWNLOAD HERE:
The Uncensored Family Guide To Vitamin D
http://www.lifespannutrition.com/30MinutesSunshine.pdf

_________________
"Unless we put medical freedom into the constitution...medicine will organize into an undercover dictatorship..force people who wish doctors and treatment of their own choice to submit to only what..dictating outfit offers." Dr. Benjamin Rush


Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:06 pm
Profile
Post Re: Looking for up-to-date info on Pauling Therapy
Bump.

Great info in this thread. :)

Ralph, where are you? We miss your posting prowess.


Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:30 pm
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