My treatment permutations

[TomD]

I had an undiagnosed high blood pressure condition that may have caused a TIA. Following up on that I performed a stress test with echo, and there is an indication of arterial hardening due to heart muscle motion. I don't have any symptoms like chest pain, and I feel good about exercise, for now. The cardiologist wants me to take an Angiogram, with his estimate of 40% nothing wrong, 30% angioplasty, 30% bypass. I haven't decided on the Angiogram, but I have started working my way up on the VitaminC.

My concern is that while the VC therapy may be beneficial, if I continue to take it now I could destroy the baseline for the Angio. Since I don't know for sure where my arteries are, I could then get a clear angio, and then I might weaken, and just assume everything is OK, and go back to my old ways. I wouldn't really have a basis for taking high doses of C for the rest of my life. Except a possible future stress test that was clean, but I can't determine that prescription, it's up to my doctors what I get in the way of tests.

On the other hand if I don't continue with the C now, and I come up clogged on my tests, then I am in for some possibly beneficial, but also dangerous surgery.

If I continue with the C, take an the angiogram in the next month, there may not be enough time for the C to have turned the trick.

There are more permutations here than it is worth listing, but since C isn't a doctor favorite therapy, it is tough integrating the two courses of action without perverse effects. Anyone else face these dilemmas?

To add a third variable, the moment I had this BP problem diagnosed I put myself on a calorie restricted diet, cut out all bad foods, reduced salt (unbelievable how much of that there is in the diet, radical reductions are still hardly "low salt"). Upped all the good stuff, was eating cups of blueberries from our fields during the summer, etc... Talk about an unscientific adjustment of all the variables. Low salt seems to have reduced my double chin! I have weighed a lot less than I currently do, and still had a double chin. Never gone low salt, I was a salt bomb avoider before, but never lowish salt. I still have the possibility of dropping weight about 20%, which is nice to have that variable to play with.

My other problem which I will expand on elsewhere is that I am on some blood pressure meds that require taking in various relationships to meals, plus my C says it should be taken on a full stomach, while my Lysine says take on an empty. I hear of people the C and the L at the same time, is that OK? Currently I am taking 1000 mg doses of lysine in pill form, and C in crystals. I find the C a little acid in my stomach. I am around 2-3mg on the former, and 4mg on the latter, and moving them up. It makes for a full day. I wasn't on any regular meds before the BP problem was diagnosed. In a perfect world I would be off the BP meds if I could swing it.

[ofonorow]

My concern is that while the VC therapy may be beneficial, if I continue to take it now I could destroy the baseline for the Angio. Since I don't know for sure where my arteries are, I could then get a clear angio, and then I might weaken, and just assume everything is OK, and go back to my old ways.

Well, you could have an bypass operation, weaken and go back to your old ways, but then you may have run out of veins and so you possibly would no longer be a candidate for another bypass.

It is true that seriously ill people who begin taking vitamin C and lysine feel so good and become so apparently well that they see no need to continue, and they invariably suffer a relapse. However, at that point you are still better off than you would after having an angioplasty with a probable stent, or a coronary bypass graft operation.

Pauling recommended supplement vitamin C "every day" and "not missing a single day" so the only issue is "how much" and I can tell you that in the case of most people, the more you take, the fewer health problems you will have. That is certainly my experience. So if you are worried about being "stuck" having to take vitamin C, it is preferable to the alternative.

You might read the salt postings here, as well as a book by Dr. David Brownstein entitled SALT drbrowstein.com. There is a difference between ordinary, highly refined table salt, and the unrefined salt that contains all its natural minerals. THe former is arguably poisonous. The latter a "health food." Brownstein found evidence that those on low-salt diets with high blood pressure are 400% more likely to suffer a heart attack because of the hormonal imbalance caused by the low salt diet. (The body goes into a mode of preserving the "precious" salt.)

You can take vitamin C and lysine together, and it is best to take them about 30 minutes prior to a meal.

[TomD]

Very much appreciate your comments.

"Well, you could have an bypass operation, weaken and go back to your old ways, but then you may have run out of veins and so you possibly would no longer be a candidate for another bypass."

My concern isn't behavioral as much as it is scientific.

- I'm taking the C now, without any heart symptoms that I can feel, therefore I won't feel an improvement from taking it. Normally at this time of year I would be on a 2 week bicycle trip, and I would feel fine, better the more exercive I get.

- Next step for me is I take the Angiogram (A), and let's say the results show no vascular issues in the heart, best case. How do I know I have heart disease, and need to take mega doses of C at all? There won't be any evidence I have the disease, or that C helped.

- Or, if I take the A. in a few weeks and it shows a problem, then the C will have "failed", possibly just because I haven't taken enough long enough. But I will be in the barrel for some serious surgery, and I am not going to feel like putting it off in the hope the C pulls me through.

I suppose it's a little theoretical since what I am doing is taking C now.

A real C believer might take the C and not take the cardiology stuff, but neither myself nor my family are probably there yet.


As far as salt is concerned, my low salt is to reduce blood pressure, though even the med. establishment seems to believe it only affects a minority. My experience on a low salt diet has been pretty good so far, but by any standard it is real tough to get to the low part. I am mostly just dispensing with the "poisonous" stuff. A wide range of foods contain salt in significant amounts even when home made. So while I never sought out salt, I have been able to cut way back by doing things like reducing bread intake (I had no idea it was 15% daily intake a slice). Eliminating prepared soups and sauces, etc... I get organic sources from stuff like celery juice. No doctor has said I need to go to zeroish. The daily recommended amount is 11 times sustenance. One slice of home made bread with half salt, doesn't even rise properly, is the sustenance level. The average person takes 6000mg, I read, which is nearly 3 time recommended and 27 times sustenance level. So one can go a long way on low salt without doing anything that would restrict natural sources or levels.

I've been having trouble with the acidity of my C crystals, and was simply wondering about buffering with baking soda, that does not seem particularly natural, one teaspoon is 5 times sustenance, so it adds up quickly. Calcium buffered preps seem not to be recommended here? I'm thinking of taking the Calcium based ones in the short run to get my doses of C up.

[ofonorow]

A real C believer might take the C and not take the cardiology stuff, but neither myself nor my family are probably there yet.

Following this has been a little like the chicken or the egg? I suppose you'll only know if the C failed if you take an angiogram... Argh!

As far as adding sodium to your ascorbic acid, that is what Pauling did, kind of hits the salt idea too. Ascorbic acid is more effective than any ascorbate salt, partly because ascorbic acid can be absorbed from the stomach into the blood stream.

What is the stomach "problem"?

[TomD]

The stomach problem was acidity when taking the C. But I am up to 6g Lysine, and 8-10 VitC and I may be at bowel tolerance, but I am not having any further acidity.

I went to the doctor and he made the case for the angio in so far as finding out what is going on. They are not likely to insert a stent or do anything at the same time as my angio, unless it was really required.

Cardiologist is very confident nothing will reverse the calcification, should that be my situation. Otherwise he is hip about some modern alternative stuff.

[Ralph Lotz]

Cardiologist is very confident nothing will reverse the calcification, should that be my situation

Vitamin K2 as MK-7, Vitamin D3 and magnesium may reverse calcification.

http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/research ... ease.shtml

Vitamin D3 should be in everyone's top 10 if they live north of Atlanta.

[Ralph Lotz]

Another thing that might help with calcification is Omega 3 Fish Oil.
It makes one wonder if Cardiologists ever read medical journals!

N-3 Fatty Acids Inhibit Vascular Calcification Via the p38-Mitogen-Activated Protein Kinase and Peroxisome Proliferator-Activated Receptor- Pathways

http://circres.ahajournals.org/cgi/cont ... t/98/6/727

[Seymore Spectacles]

Another option might be IP6. I use it pretty regularly. Part of the reason, why I use it, is to (hopefully) help to keep my arteries clear of calcium deposits. It's also an excellent cancer-fighter/immune booster and much more.

I agree with the other recommendations mentioned earlier on this thread: fish oil, magnesium, vitamins D & K2.

[TomD]

Thanks, I thought the Vitamin C reversed calcification? I need to reread some of the basics me thinks. I am taking 1000 mg of Omega three also. So it would be good if that helped.

[ofonorow]

Thanks, I thought the Vitamin C reversed calcification? I need to reread some of the basics me thinks. I am taking 1000 mg of Omega three also. So it would be good if that helped.

From our anecdotal experience, vitamin C does not usually resolve calcifications, perhaps because the factors promoting the buildup of calcium in soft tissues exceed the benefits of vitamin C? It is true that there is al teast one case that was monitored by Dr. Bush/Cardioretinometry where he happened to notice a patient with a calcified retinal artery (Bush says calcified arteries usually don't resolve with dietary changes like the "soft" atheromas) was resolved when the patient came in a year later for a visit, after being advised to start taking vitamin C.

So we know that a) it is possible for a microscopic calcified artery to become more "normal", and b) this process probably takes more than a few months, but perhaps less than a year or 2 for a calcified microscopic artery to resolve itself on vitamin C intake.

I was much more impressed by the action of a vitamin K supplement in this regard on a friend who was taking the Tower Heart Technology (high vitamin C/lysine) for years. He still scored high on the Fast CT-Scan (which detects calcium), checked himself into a hospital for an angiogram, but his arteries were "wide open." (Apparently, calcium tends to accumlate in the cracks on the "outside" of the artery, if you think of it as a pipe.)

My friend had occasional very high blood pressure, and very inelastic arteries according to an interesting device called CardioVision that measures "arterial stiffness." Knowing about vitamin K, I recommended that he add it, and a year later, at the same trade show, we again had CardioVision ASI (stiffness index measurements) measured and his ASI had dropped hundreds of points to match my low number - which stayed constant.) He claims the only thing he did was add vitamin K - pills he got at a health food store.)

[TomD]

Thanks Owen. Not the first time I have read this, including the useful stuff on BP. Could you elaborate on "I suppose you'll only know if the C failed if you take an angiogram... Argh!". SHould I not bother?

[J.Lilinoe]

Another option might be IP6. I use it pretty regularly. Part of the reason, why I use it, is to (hopefully) help to keep my arteries clear of calcium deposits. It's also an excellent cancer-fighter/immune booster and much more

Seymore, I know that I first read about IP6 from Bill Sardi's site when it was up. How much are you taking per day for calcium chelation purposes? I know that it is supposed to be good for enhancing cancer killer cells and for chelating iron too.

[Seymore Spectacles]

Seymore, I know that I first read about IP6 from Bill Sardi's site when it was up. How much are you taking per day for calcium chelation purposes? I know that it is supposed to be good for enhancing cancer killer cells and for chelating iron too.

JL,

I'm using 2,000 mg of IP6 on an almost daily basis. I believe that's in-line with Sardi's recommendations. I use the Jarrow brand.

I think Mr. Sardi advises to take a break, from IP6, every so often. The reason for that is that he theorizes that it may bring about an iron-deficiency - with prolonged, consistent use.

I take it on most weekdays and usually skip it on weekends. I also eat quite a bit of red meat. So, I think my iron levels should be okay - as verified by regular blood work.

One final note: I take the IP6 away from my other supplements and from food as well. Technically, IP6 (phytic acid) is an "anti-nutrient". It can negatively impact the absorption of minerals if taken at the same time. Therefore, I try to take it in-between meals. By that, I mean at least two hours before and after meals.

[J.Lilinoe]

I'm using 2,000 mg of IP6 on an almost daily basis. I believe that's in-line with Sardi's recommendations. I use the Jarrow brand.

I think Mr. Sardi advises to take a break, from IP6, every so often. The reason for that is that he theorizes that it may bring about an iron-deficiency - with prolonged, consistent use.

I take it on most weekdays and usually skip it on weekends. I also eat quite a bit of red meat. So, I think my iron levels should be okay - as verified by regular blood work.

One final note: I take the IP6 away from my other supplements and from food as well. Technically, IP6 (phytic acid) is an "anti-nutrient". It can negatively impact the absorption of minerals if taken at the same time. Therefore, I try to take it in-between meals. By that, I mean at least two hours before and after meals.

Thanks Seymore. Much appreciate the details on how and when to take IP6.