Lysine = Collagen, and most body protein is collagen?

[lycosphere]

How does this make any sense?

1. If lysine is the principal component of collagen and collagen makes up the majority of the body's protein, wouldn't the amino acid profile of meat be heavily lysine?

2. Does anyone have a table or chart that shows the main protein components of the human body? i.e. Collagen 30%, Enzymes 1%, etc...

3. I'm looking at the amino acid profile for a hydrolyzed collagen supplement(from cow skins) I take and lysine is 8th most common amino acid.
The amino acid profile ordered by amount
Glycine 22.8%
Proline 13.80 %
Hydroxyproline 13.00%
Alanine 9.5%
Arginine7.9%
Aspartic acid 5.70%
Lysine 4.2%
...
...

So, to me anyways, its seems that instead of just taking Proline/Glycine/Lysine, we should also be taking Alanine/Arginine/Aspartic acid? Why isn't this recommended? I'm guessing it's because Alanine/Arginine/Aspartic are non-essential amino acids and it's assumed that the body can just manufacture those?

[Ralph Lotz]

1. If lysine is the principal component of collagen and collagen makes up the majority of the body's protein, wouldn't the amino acid profile of meat be heavily lysine?

The most prominent amino acid in sirloin is glutamic acid. The most prominent essential amino acid in sirloin is lysine.

I'm guessing it's because Alanine/Arginine/Aspartic are non-essential amino acids and it's assumed that the body can just manufacture those?

This is what is usually assumed, although there are many variables because of age, biological individuality and diet. The daily requirement is probably around 40 mg/kg in so-called healthy people.

Lysine is required for many biological functions in addition to its role in collagen i.e. carnitine.

[ofonorow]

The answer why lysine and proline are singled out in the Pauling therapy has to do with the nature of the so-called Lysine Binding Site, the receptors (lock and key) on the Lp(a) molecule that adhere to lysine strands exposed on the arterial wall after the wall is damaged, this damage is usually called a lesion.

The discovery (the Pauling/Rath invention) is that by flooding the system with lysine molecules, they fill the floating Lp(a) lysine receptors (keyholes) with the lysine molecules (keys) so that the Lp(a) molecules are no longer sticky. They will no long adhere to the arterial wall. According to Pauling, a world-class chemist, lysine can even destroy existing plaques. (Good to keep in mind that plaques are compensating, according to Pauling/Rath, for arterial weakness caused by a lack of vitamin C. So dissolving the plaques without taking lots of vitamin C would, at least in theory, not be entirely safe.)

Now, it has been shown that Lp(a) also has proline receptors (proline binding sites), this work mostly since Pauling's death. Proline may play as great, or even a greater role in plaque disintegration. And it is amazingly beautiful to me that vitamin C, lysine and proline, the substances that dissolve plaques, are, as you say, the major constructors of collagen, the gridwork in the arterial tissue that keeps arteries strong and resilient.

There is work that has been done with arginine, but usually the effect of this amino acid has to do with dilating the arteries, creating better blood flow.

The caveat is that taking too much protein puts a load on the kidneys. Pauling became an expert in this (almost died at age 40 of a kidney ailment. At that time, higher protein was recommended, and people generally died from the ailment. So he and a Stanford professor researched the condition, and he went on an ultra-low protein diet - and survived. This was when he started taking a multi-vitamin pill daily (From LINUS PAULING IN HIS OWN WORDS).

[pamojja]

[pamojja]

Could above product already be too much protein for my kidneys? - Or could there be any possible adverse effects, taken in this combination?

Forgot to mention that I daily use the following amino acids additionally:
6g l-lysin HCL
2g l-carnitine
1g taurine

[pamojja]

Have to add, I've been vegetarian for most of my life and my main source of protein consists of lentils and milk products.

Well, since I added a breakfast with many special ingredients - walnuts, yeast flakes and powder, pumpkin and sunflower seed, wholewheat flour, flakes, bran and bread, etc. - this actually make up more than half of my protein intake.

And if I add the 17 grams of supplement protein I'm at around 20% of protein in my whole calories intake.

[Ralph Lotz]

Have you had homocysteine levels checked?

How about vitamin D, 25(OH) D levels?

[pamojja]

I've a avarage daily intake of about 1,5 mcg of Vitamin D and B12 with my food. So I would be really surprised if my homecysteine wouldn't be too high and 25(OH) D too low.

Therefore, I take precaution with D3 and B vitamins now.

To get my physician to have these levels tested was such a painful and fruitless experience - certainly me taking additional D3 and B vitamins without testing can't hurt that much.


My PAD has improved only slightly, since I started a half year ago to gradually increase to the doses what Pauling recommends - in terms of walking distance without pain.

An almost daily chest pain - which for no diagnosis has been found, despite being checked up for 2 weeks in a hospital 3 years ago - is miracolously gone. However, whenever I try to lower Q10 below 150 mg daily this pain is coming back again.

A hay fever I experienced always heavily in May - this year made me only sneeze a few times - as if to say 'good bye'.

And a rush on my back and chest since about 2 years ago has disappeared too.

[ofonorow]

Is there an open question? Taking a protein supplement may be wise for a vegetarian, but I don't think it is the best way to obtain therapeutic levels of proline, however, based on

n almost daily chest pain - which for no diagnosis has been found, despite being checked up for 2 weeks in a hospital 3 years ago - is miracolously gone. However, whenever I try to lower Q10 below 150 mg daily this pain is coming back again.

Sounds like your pain is caused by a lack of CoQ10 - which will cause muscle pain, and while making your own is the least expensive way to go (requires excellent nutrition) taking several drugs will deplete CoQ10. Are you on any drugs?

Pauling did not specifically recommend proline - Matthias Rath does - but there are excellent reasons to add it, however, based on what you have posted, and my understanding, you would be wise to keep doing what you are doing, but focus on CoQ10 - perhaps trying at least some the ubiquinol form - apparently some people have trouble breaking CoQ10 down to this substance, which is what I am told the body can actually utilize.

If you are willing to experiment, we can learn from your pain threshold. I would be interested in whether (and how much) ubiquinol keeps you from experiencing the pain. Can it really substitute for CoQ10 and might it in fact be btter? For example, it would be useful to know if it has no effect, etc.

[pamojja]

Thanks for the reply,

Is there an open question?

Actually both questions:

1. Does Hydroxyprolin have the same action on Lp(a) as Prolin?
2. Could above product already be too much protein for my kidneys? - Or could there be any possible adverse effects, taken in this combination?

Taking a protein supplement may be wise for a vegetarian, ...

I somewhere read that around 15% of protein of one's whole calorie intake would be ideal. So with my 20% I would have only slightly more than what is recommended (can't remember the source). Why you think that vegetarian would need supplemental protein? - I only asked if I would get too much protein because in the post before you wrote:

The caveat is that taking too much protein puts a load on the kidneys. Pauling became an expert in this (almost died at age 40 of a kidney ailment. At that time, higher protein was recommended, and people generally died from the ailment..

Therefore I got the impression you would have some specific further knowlegde unter which condition protein would be too much.

... but I don't think it is the best way to obtain therapeutic levels of proline, ..

Well, the product mentioned contains 1,2 gram of Prolin per daily dose. You don't consider this amount enough?

And to repeat the second question: Does Hydroxyprolin have the same action on Lp(a) as Prolin? (which is contained by an other 1,03 gram)

Regards..

[ofonorow]

Maybe someone knows? I do not. Hydroxilated proline is the form found in the collagen matrix, I believe, but whether it can make Lp(a) less sticky is unknown to me. However, we may be talking about the same supplement - more technical name? Read Pauling's HOW TO LIVE LONGER AND FEEL BETTER for a detailed discussion on the right amount of protein to consume daily.

[pamojja]

However, we may be talking about the same supplement - more technical name? Read Pauling's HOW TO LIVE LONGER AND FEEL BETTER for a detailed discussion on the right amount of protein to consume daily.

Don't think it's only a more technical name, since Hydroxyprolin is listed separate with its own weight.

I've ordered 'How to live longer..' last week..

Sounds like your pain is caused by a lack of CoQ10 - which will cause muscle pain, and while making your own is the least expensive way to go (requires excellent nutrition) taking several drugs will deplete CoQ10. Are you on any drugs?

I was prescribed Simvastin and Aspirin, but never took any.

Well, I checked which food would provide mgs of Coenzyms per 100 gram of food:
Sesame 2,24
Carotts 1,02
Broccoli 0,48

So you must be talking about other nutrients somewhere in the biological process where Coenzyms Q10 gets produced in the body?

..but focus on CoQ10 - perhaps trying at least some the ubiquinol form - apparently some people have trouble breaking CoQ10 down to this substance, which is what I am told the body can actually utilize.

If you are willing to experiment, we can learn from your pain threshold. I would be interested in whether (and how much) ubiquinol keeps you from experiencing the pain. Can it really substitute for CoQ10 and might it in fact be btter? For example, it would be useful to know if it has no effect, etc.

Didn't used ubiquinol yet due to it's much higher price. I've bought CoQ10 online and so stocked it already for a year. Therefore, it will take some time till I order again. But then I'll experiment and report back.

[pamojja]

Read Pauling's HOW TO LIVE LONGER AND FEEL BETTER for a detailed discussion on the right amount of protein to consume daily.

'How to live longer ..' does not really answer my question about protein intake - because this question is discussed in a very cursory manner only.

In chapter 4 Pauling mentions the required amount of protein as 0.45 grams per kilogram of body weight. Which would mean 28 grams/day and about 11% percent of daily caloric intake in my case.

In Chapter 5 this is a bid elaborated by giving the following ratios:

Protein Fat Carbohydrates
12% 42% 46% - present US diet
12% 30% 58% - dietary goal
10% 40% 50% - recommended by 'How to live ..'

16% 40% 44% - myself (made a mistake in my former calculation)
37% 22% 41% - paleolithic

I guess the ideal ratio is something very difficult to predict, since it depends on too many factors: constitution, kind or proteins etc. For cutting down on proteins in my case now - I would have to reduce those foods which I actually only added because of my PAD: walnut, oat bran, yeast flakes, dark chocolate, seeds, ..

[Ralph Lotz]

Generally the current RDA for protein is .8 grams/kg. This amount varies according to age, male or female, etc.

[pamojja]

Thanks for the reply, Ralph.

For completeness - here what Paulling had to say about protein intake in chapter 4:

The amount of protein required for amino-acid balance for adult is proportional to body weight. It is about 0.45 grams (g) per kilogram (kg), 0.20 g per pound. The Food and Nutrition Board recommends 30 percent larger amounts, 0.26 g per pound for adults. Infants need about 1.0 g per pound, young children about 0.60 g per pound, older children and adolescents 0.50 or 0.40 g per pound.

Most adult Americans ingest two or three times the recommended amount of proteins. The excess not required or building new protein molecules is burned, for energy, along with the fats and carbohydrates, and probably no harm is done by the excess intake to people in reasonably good health. A high intake is protein increases the burden on the kidney. People with impaired kidney function, such as those with only one kidney or who have suffered damage from nephritis, can avert further kidney damage by limiting protein to the amino-acid-balance level. Care must be taken not to go below this level.

Although all of the amino acids are present in the proteins in the human body, not all of them need to be in the food because most of them are manufactured by the body. Those that must be obtained in the food, the essential amino acids, are histidine, leucine, isoleucine, lysine, methionine, phenylalanine, theonine, tryptophan, and valine. The amounts required for an adult young man range from 0.50 g for tryptophan to 2.20 g per day for leucine, methionine, and phyenylalanine. These amounts are provided by a mixed diet including animal protein (meat, fish, eggs) but not by a vegetarian diet, which may be especially low in lysine and methionine.

.. since I'm not aware of any kidney problem I seem to be doing ok.

However, that Americans would have a 2 to 3 times higher protein intake doesn't really go together with the numbers in chapter 5, which only shows a 2 percent higher intake to Pauling's own recommendation.

This inconsistency gives me the slight impression that part of these 2 chapters aren't derived from first hand investigations.

Anyone aware of studies in support of the claim: that a vegetarian wouldn't get enough of certain essiential amino-acids?