Recent blood tests

[scottbushey]

Owen,
Verified my BT at 20k.

Regards,
Scott

[godsilove]

Hi Owen,
Thanks for the response.

No, the lab is not 'Q'.

My take on the Pauling therapy is that Cholesterol is not the issue per se. Cholesterol is actually our friend! Cholesterol, when high is the result of inflammation. This inflammation is caused by a number of things but mainly because of a sub clinical scurvy or a lack of Vitamin C. Cholesterol sticking to the inflamed artery is the body's response to correct the deficit-much like skinning your knee. It's not a food issue or diet issue; If I remember correctly, Pauling mentioned that we should eat whatever we enjoy sans the sugar. If we take in enough Vitamin C w/ Lysine, i.e. The Pauling Therapy, the inflammation should cease and the residual cholesterol should not be able to stick to the arterial walls. In fact, if the Inflammation stays, the lysine approach should counteract the cholesterols ability to attach to the inflamed artery.

If inflammation results in high cholesterol, and vitamin C reduces inflammation - then shouldn't your cholesterol levels be lower after being on megadose vitamin C treatment?

C-reactive protein is usually a marker for inflammation, and your hsCRP result is in the higher range. Some people are genetically predisposed to having a higher CRP level, but I'm not sure if there is a commercially available test to find out whether you would be in this group. Have you had a hsCRP test in the past?

I disagree that "it's not a food issue or diet issue". There are clearly dietary factors other than sugar that can increase cardiovascular risk, so please do be mindful of saturated fats, trans-fats, sodium, et cetera as well as total calories (if you aren't already - I apologize if I come across as presumptuous). A Mediterranean-style diet, for instance, has been consistently shown to reduce cardiovascular risk.

I wouldn't dismiss LDL cholesterol so easily, considering that multiple lines of evidence tie it to an increased risk of cardiovascular disease. If LDL-cholesterol is simply elevated in response to a pre-existing arterial injury or damage - as some seem to be claiming - then ask yourself why people with familial hypercholesterolemia have an increased risk of cardiovascular disease. LDL-C is not the end-all and be-all of heart disease, but it is clearly a risk factor.

[scottbushey]

G.I.L,
Thanks for your reply.

I am with you-I expected my levels to drop off from the last test I had. I know Owen believes that there are contributing factors, but most likely not w/ the amount I have been taking.

I don't believe I have had a CRP test done in the past.

In regards to your statement about food; Pauling disagreed with you. If his rationale is more than theory, it would follow that his conclusion is valid-take away the inflammation, eat whatever.

In response to your assessment of LDL cholesterol: 'Familial Hypercholesterolemia' is just another way for the medical community to say, 'you will most likely, eventually have inflammation and subsequent ashd/cad-at least, thats what our studies done in the past show'. Additionally, there is no proof that people with familial risk factors develop ashd/cad and suffer from MI's or stroke-sure there's a percentage, but there's also a percentage of people who have no risk factors and are subject to the same.

I appreciate your feedback as well as your continued challenges to this system-soemone needs to be the devils advocate here. I saw myself as a fine example as a test subject when I began this personal quest. I continue to supplement 18-20 k of VC daily. Personally, at this point, I don't really know if I feel better from taking it-as I have mentioned in the past, It causes some agitation. I wonder if I should be taking the statin w/ my vC regimen and replace the fats that are essential-Im already supplementing the CoQ10, why not the essential fats?

Look forward in chatting....

SPB

[ofonorow]

When you say that you share my view on cholesterol, is this view theory or fact. I thought Pauling worked this out chemically and molecularly??? Apparently, the board has varying views-I see the inconsistencies as suspect. Forgive me as I am a nurse and sometimes my thinking is fixed.

Love it that you are a nurse. The "theory" is widely held among alternative doctors. In HOW TO LIVE LONGER, Pauling cites the extensive Ginter studies (showing the direct correlation between vitamin C intake and cholesterol levels - in guinea pigs and humans), as well as studies of sugar (fructose) and its direct link in a controlled study (prison environment). There is work by Harwood, et. al. that shows ascorbate can inhibit the same enzyme the statin drugs inhibit, http://www.jbc.org/content/261/16/7127.abstract

Dr. Thomas Levy, working closely with Hal Huggins (because Levy's own heart disease subsided after Huggins removed his amalgams/root canals UNIFORMED CONSENT.) became interested after noticing that his heart patient's cholesterol invariably dropped after their dental amaglams were removed. Why he wondered? He delved into the literature and found evidence that cholesterol is a natural detoxifying agent, and found experiments showing that it rises (and falls) in response to toxin loads. (In my opinion, this is the vitamin C link as the vitamin can be "used up" regulating heavy metals.)

Now, I am no expert, but I took the liberty of looking up your three medications, and I infer you have high blood pressure, "crushing" chest pain (Angina) and perhaps evidence of heart failure? Have these symptoms gotten better, worse, no change? I am asking whether there is evidence that the therapy is not working, in addition to the elevation of cholesterol?

And the protonics does concern me in relation to vitamin C and the ability to utilize other nutrients. A certain amount of vitamin C (according to Hickey/Roberts - The Ridiculous DIetary Allowance lulu.com/ascorbate) quickly enters the blood stream through the stomach wall, but stomach acid is required for this to occur. (It may become less bioavailable as acorbate travels into the gut.) In addition, B12, zinc and other nutrients require stomach acid, and reducing stomach acid can lead to depression (B12 deficiency) and blindness (zinc deficiency). The research is summarized in the Jonathan Wright book WHY STOMACH ACID IS GOOD FOR YOU. Worth reading for an alternative view on this class of drugs.

[scottbushey]

Owen,
I have just recently (this week) been diagnosed w/ hypertension. I just started the Norvasc 4 days ago. I have never been diagnosed w/ CAD or ASHD; I take the Beta Blcoker because I have paroxysmal afib, status post Cardiac/pulmonary ablation last December. The Protonix issue should be reconciled in that I follow the Dyanmic flow principle.

My last Metabolic panel was perfect.......

It seems as if we are left with the rationale, at least thats what I'm getting from you that unless the scenario is bordering upon perfect, the therapy is useless. I have a few root canals and I have 3 amalgam fillings left in my mouth.

Having said what I have, what am I left with? I have spent a lot of money on VC. What do you suggest as I am not going to have my teeth pulled and I can't come off the Protonix.

[ofonorow]

Owen,
I have just recently (this week) been diagnosed w/ hypertension. I just started the Norvasc 4 days ago. I have never been diagnosed w/ CAD or ASHD; I take the Beta Blcoker because I have paroxysmal afib, status post Cardiac/pulmonary ablation last December.

Reviewing your supplements, what about magnesium? What Tower product are you taking? (Ascorsine-9 has a fine form of chelated magnesium.)

The Protonix issue should be reconciled in that I follow the Dynamic flow principle.

Perhaps, not sure I follow the logic, other than you are trying an overload to overcome the lack of stomach absorption.

My last Metabolic panel was perfect.......


It seems as if we are left with the rationale, at least thats what I'm getting from you that unless the scenario is bordering upon perfect, the therapy is useless.

Sorry, you lost me. My feeling is quite the opposite, that you are probably obtaining a great deal of benefit from the therapy, (a view which may be supported by ancillary evidence), even if the rise in cholesterol is signaling a snowballing problem.

I have a few root canals and I have 3 amalgam fillings left in my mouth.

Having said what I have, what am I left with? I have spent a lot of money on VC. What do you suggest as I am not going to have my teeth pulled and I can't come off the Protonix.

If not on already on Ascorsine-9, then I would add magnesium to your regimen. (A good form of Omega/3 is also a good idea in case vitamin C has difficulty penetrating cell membranes.) Given the dental situation, you probably are not interested in Dr. Levy's view, which, in a nutshell, is that the probable toxic load in your mouth is a stream that vitamin C (a hair dryer) can not overcome.

Would you be better off by not taking vitamin C at your bowel tolerance level? I don't see how? The elevated cholesterol is probably your friend (performing a detoxifying function) rather than an enemy. Therefore knowing your Lp(a) would provide insight whether the elevated cholesterol is increasing the CVD risk.

[scottbushey]

Owen,
I have just recently (this week) been diagnosed w/ hypertension. I just started the Norvasc 4 days ago. I have never been diagnosed w/ CAD or ASHD; I take the Beta Blcoker because I have paroxysmal afib, status post Cardiac/pulmonary ablation last December.

Reviewing your supplements, what about magnesium? What Tower product are you taking? (Ascorsine-9 has a fine form of chelated magnesium.)

I'm dosing w/ the Ascorsine 9; Thats all I've ever taken; of course with ascorbic acid between doses of the A9

The Protonix issue should be reconciled in that I follow the Dynamic flow principle.

Perhaps, not sure I follow the logic, other than you are trying an overload to overcome the lack of stomach absorption.

Exactly.

My last Metabolic panel was perfect.......


It seems as if we are left with the rationale, at least thats what I'm getting from you that unless the scenario is bordering upon perfect, the therapy is useless.

Sorry, you lost me. My feeling is quite the opposite, that you are probably obtaining a great deal of benefit from the therapy, (a view which may be supported by ancillary evidence), even if the rise in cholesterol is signaling a snowballing problem.

OK

I have a few root canals and I have 3 amalgam fillings left in my mouth.

Having said what I have, what am I left with? I have spent a lot of money on VC. What do you suggest as I am not going to have my teeth pulled and I can't come off the Protonix.

If not on already on Ascorsine-9, then I would add magnesium to your regimen. (A good form of Omega/3 is also a good idea in case vitamin C has difficulty penetrating cell membranes.) Given the dental situation, you probably are not interested in Dr. Levy's view, which, in a nutshell, is that the probable toxic load in your mouth is a stream that vitamin C (a hair dryer) can not overcome.

Would you be better off by not taking vitamin C at your bowel tolerance level? I don't see how? The elevated cholesterol is probably your friend (performing a detoxifying function) rather than an enemy. Therefore knowing your Lp(a) would provide insight whether the elevated cholesterol is increasing the CVD risk.

I'm taking magnesium; I believe I noted that when I posted my regimen.

How does one send off a specimen to Artherotech? Do I need a Rx from my practitioner or will a lab just draw some blood? Do they need to send off the specimen? I believe I saw Life Extension here in Ft.Laud has a program where they sent you to a lab corp and then lab corp sends it.....

Thanks for all you offer Owen!

[godsilove]

G.I.L,
Thanks for your reply.

I am with you-I expected my levels to drop off from the last test I had. I know Owen believes that there are contributing factors, but most likely not w/ the amount I have been taking.

There is also a possibility that after a point, more vitamin C is not necessarily better. The studies from Levine and others seems to suggest this, i.e. that body tissues become saturated with vitamin C at a certain level. The amount determined was for white blood cells, so it may be different for other tissues in the body - but the concept of a saturation limit would still hold. Hickey, Roberts and Cathcart disagree because of their "Dynamic Flow" hypothesis, but other than a review article in the Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine, it doesn't seem that they have any original research supporting this.

In regards to your statement about food; Pauling disagreed with you. If his rationale is more than theory, it would follow that his conclusion is valid-take away the inflammation, eat whatever.

But is his rationale more than theory?

Nonetheless, as I said earlier, your CRP levels might suggest that you have subclinical inflammation - so until the inflammation is gone, even going by Pauling's hypothesis one wouldn't be at a stage to eat whatever.

In response to your assessment of LDL cholesterol: 'Familial Hypercholesterolemia' is just another way for the medical community to say, 'you will most likely, eventually have inflammation and subsequent ashd/cad-at least, thats what our studies done in the past show'. Additionally, there is no proof that people with familial risk factors develop ashd/cad and suffer from MI's or stroke-sure there's a percentage, but there's also a percentage of people who have no risk factors and are subject to the same.

The same can be said of smoking and lung cancer. Not all smokers get lung cancer, and not all lung cancer patients are current or former smokers. But smoking is clearly a risk factor for lung cancer, based on the evidence available to us - smokers are more likely to get lung cancer than non-smokers. Of course, smoking is not the only risk factor for lung cancer and there can be other etiological factors involved. The same goes for heart disease - cholesterol isn't everything, but it is still an important risk factor to address.

I appreciate your feedback as well as your continued challenges to this system-soemone needs to be the devils advocate here. I saw myself as a fine example as a test subject when I began this personal quest. I continue to supplement 18-20 k of VC daily. Personally, at this point, I don't really know if I feel better from taking it-as I have mentioned in the past, It causes some agitation. I wonder if I should be taking the statin w/ my vC regimen and replace the fats that are essential-Im already supplementing the CoQ10, why not the essential fats?

Look forward in chatting....

SPB

I think one of the most distressing parts about preventitive therapies is that there is always uncertainty involved, because the only tangible way of knowing whether an intervention is working is often through lab results. My dad and grandfather both have Type II diabetes, so I infer that I am at risk of developing it later in my lifetime. Thankfully, several studies have shown that dietary factors and exercise can reduce this risk - so while I have no way of knowing whether anything I do is going to actually prevent me from getting diabetes, I can at least be reassured that it is something based on evidence and/or a plausible scientific rationale.

I hope whatever interventions you choose will contribute positively to your current and future health.

[scottbushey]

My Vitamin D results:

34.0

[ofonorow]

According to latest Life Extension Magazine (article authored/reviewed by Dr. Cannel of vitamin D council) the new target is 50. (30 used to be the vitamin D3 blood target)

Here is a comment from Dr. Levy about your cholesterol level:

Hello Owen,

I've been following some of the threads on your forum. One individual was very concerned about his rise in cholesterol in spite of an excellent regimen of supplementation. Cholesterol will reliably rise as an attempt by the body to neutralize an increasing presence of toxins. And when the cholesterol gets in the 260 or more range, an increasing presence of toxins is virtually the only reason for such a dramatic rise. Always remember that all toxins are prooxidant by nature, and they will always deplete antioxidant stores as long as they are present. As has been discussed much on the forum as well as in my vitamin C-heart disease book, the primary reason for the initiation of heart disease is the depletion and often near-absence of vitamin C in the inner arterial wall.

And while you represented my scientific opinion well, I thought it needed re-emphasizing. Based on my medical research and clinical experiences, I maintain that the root canal treated tooth (teeth) is, far and away, the single most important cause of both cancer and heart disease. Period. No sugar coating. In one case, it only took one root
canal to cause the most rapidly progressing coronary heart disease that I have ever encountered, even though this individual was taking, easily, the best regimen of supplementation that I can imagine. The prooxidant toxicity of any
number of root canals is profound. It often makes excellent supplementation almost irrelevant. The math is simple: if you are effectively neutralizing a thimbleful of toxins on a daily basis and ignore the barrelful of toxins being dumped in your body by a toxic mouth, your health will still lose, even if this progression is slowed just a bit. The toxicity of root canals is covered extensively in the book that Dr. Kulacz and I wrote, "The Roots of Disease." Getting teeth extracted is definitely a big deal, but if you can read this book and rationalize keeping your root canals, then I've done my duty to inform as best I can.

The only time the cholesterol doesn't drop from elevated levels after the proper extraction of root canals is when there is another enormous but unidentified presence of toxicity in the body that had not been addressed. This is often in the form of other low grade infections in the mouth that are not readily apparent, a toxic, constipated gut, an unexpectedly rapid rate of detoxification after the dental work, or the exposure to an undue amount of external toxicity, like living downwind from an aluminum-producing plant.

I wish you and all of the forum members a great holiday season and a prosperous and healthy New Year.

Dr. Levy

[scottbushey]

Great!

"It often makes excellent supplementation almost irrelevant."

Unfortunately, I am not made of money; I am a lowly paid nurse. I have about 6 root canaled teeth in my mouth plus three other amalgam filled ones. All of these repairs have been done in the last 3 or 4 years. I imaging all these need to come out. Looks like 20k to me with the cost of implants............I'm at a loss.

~as I fall deeper and deeper into depression..............

[scottbushey]

ON Mercola's site:


An Interview with George Meinig, D.D.S. in regrads to extracting root canaled teeth:

"MJ If extraction proves necessary for anyone reading this, do you want to summarize what's special about the extraction technique?

GM Just pulling the tooth is not enough when removal proves necessary. Dr. Price found bacteria in the tissues and bone just adjacent to the tooth's root. So we now recommend slow-speed drilling with a burr, to remove one millimeter of the entire bony socket. The purpose is to remove the periodontal ligament (which is always infected with toxins produced by streptococcus bacteria living in the dentin tubules) and the first millimeter of bone that lines the socket (which is usually infected).

There's a whole protocol involved, including irrigating with sterile saline to assure removal of the contaminated bone chips, and treating the socket to stimulate and encourage infection-free healing. I describe the procedure in detail, step by step, in my book [pages 185 and 186]."

[scottbushey]

Owen,
The above puts a proverbial nail in the coffin of VC therapy; what do you suggest in light of the above?

[scottbushey]

Thinking..........

I don't quite understand something:

If Pauling says that by taking High dose VC and suplementing that with Proline and Lysine, the high cholesterol should not be the issue. The high dose VC therapy should counteract the inflamation; The cholesterol should lose it's sticky property and not adher to the arterial wall. The root canaled teeth issue would be moot.......I'm confused.

[scottbushey]

I'll add:
The position that the root canals are poisonous and that supplementing is useless flies in the face of Bowel tolerance theory........