Cleveland Clinic Trial/A-9 Not Lowering Lp(a)

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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Cleveland Clinic Trial/A-9 Not Lowering Lp(a)

Post Number:#1  Post by ofonorow » Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:11 am

Hi Sally;

In November 2010 I had my yearly check-up which includes extensive blood
work done by Cleveland Clinic.

To say the least, my cholesterol results were dissapointing and are as
follows:



Serum Cholesterol 7.89 or 303.46 in your scale

HDL 1.36 52

LDL 5.88 226.15

Lpa .80 same as last year and high

I have been taking the ascorsine 9 since last January , two scoops, three
times daily or roughly 9 grms/day.

The only good reading was my testosterone level which went up to normal.

My Cardiologist at Cleveland is very upset and suggests I go back to
Lipitor.

Can you shed some light as to why my cholesterol went up from 4.5 0r 173 on
your scale, to 300 after stopping Lipitor.

any assistance is much appreciated.


John Bernardo, Toronto




I hate these chol. units, and perhaps he ought to have another lab, e.g. Atherotech verify the numbers? Does he know his C bowel tolerance? (http://www.orthomed.com/titrate.htm) as 9000 mg sounds like a lot, but if he
is has an unusually high tolerance, say 30,000 mg daily, then he would
be 20,000 mg short of vitamin C every day. Yes, drugs, body weight, diabetes, diet (especially around the time he takes A-9, proteins good, carbs bad) can influence his chol numbers, but if he is really not improving on 3 servings, something outside of our experience is happening.

Rereading - his numbers are "normal" (180 mg/dl) on Lipitor, but goes off the chart when he stops and tries to substitute vitamin C. (I was reading and I couldn't find his heart disease history??) Statins artifically lower cholesterol, which is a signal of heart disease, but if there is no heart disease, cholesterol by itself does no harm.

I think I would recommend at least one packet of LivonLabs.com Lypo-C daily, for several reasons. This would bypass any absorption issues, and would help to ensure that another estimated 5000 to 10000 mg (equivalent) of vitamin C reaches his cells.




Historical record of emails with Sally Jewell


Hi Sally;

I trust you are well.Sionce taking the Ascorsine 9 my jogging is much
better. Thank you.

I am running out of my 3 month supply and need another 3 months.

regards,

John


I believe I have come across a blessing in disguise and thought I share it
with you.

As you know I've been trying to get off Lipitor, so following my last note
to you, I made an appointment with my Cardiologist at Cleveland Clinic in
Toronto. We met for approximately one hour and I pointed out the nasty side
effects of Lipitor. At first he was very resistant to agree but he is a cool
youngish 45 years old of Indian background that is not afraid to venture
from main stream and we discussed my using Tower's products and the
Pauling/Rath discoveries.

He suggested that I write him a memo with all my research on cholesterol and
that he is willing to do a trial with me and some other patients of his on
the Vitamin C/ Lysine regimen for 10 weeks.

Jokingly, he said" if you're correct and this works you'll be famous" I said
I'm not the famous person, Pauling was, I just need to get off Lipitor with
your help. he assured me he has a lot of clout at Cleveland and they do
listen to him.

He agreed to put me on 500mg of NIASPAM FCT for starters on top of my Tower
regimen, which i discussed with him consists of six full scoops of Ascorsine
9 per day,120 mg Coq 10, 81 mg aspirin and 200 mg of Magnesium Citrate plus
2000 mg. of D .

In my memorandum to him I want to provide some interesting material about C
and Lysine and Lpa.

Anything you can supply is greatly appreciated as this can be very good for
Tower as well if this trial goes well.

He wants to try it for 8-10 weeks and then take blood work to see the
results.



At present, I believe Im taking the following:



Vit. C 9000/day

Lysine 8400

COQ10 120mg, plus yours

Magnesium 200 mg. plus yours

Plus all others contained in your Ascorsine 9

Do you believe this regimen will maintain my cholesterol levels(which are
normal)today once I get off Lipitor or should the C be higher. We do not
want to fail, we will all look bad.



I look to your input



John


Again, Thanks Sally.

My interest is in exactly what you are hinting at,and that is to get off
Lipitor, however, I'd like to do that with a Cardiologist that is not main
stream only and one who is more open minded. My existing Cardiologist would
suggest I was crazy.

In 2008, when I was on the Rath regimen ,I stopped Lipitor and within 4
Months , my cholesterol readings doubled. This is my fear.

In my original email to you, I had asked if you knew of any Cardiologist
that is not main stream and practicing in Toronto Canada.If you have anyone
I can work with, I would appreciate it.



regards,

May 17, 2010

In Canada cholesterol is measured in mmo/dl while in the U.S. you use mg./l, the conversion is approximately 40.

Thus my reading of 4.5 Canadian is approximately 4.5x40=180.

The blood work, on the surface ,is excellent except the Lpa.

I trust your direction and will increase my intake of Q10.

My interest, however, as pointed out in your book is to get off the Statins. I understand your office cannot give advise against a drug, however , at least point me to the right direction on how to get off.

I really want to work with a Cardiologist who is not main strean and on my last email I asked if your office knows of one in Toronto Canada. If not, again, how do I get off Lipitor?



regards,
Owen R. Fonorow
HeartCURE.Info
American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year

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Re: Cleveland Clinic Trial/A-9 Not Lowering Lp(a)

Post Number:#2  Post by ofonorow » Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:16 am

Thanks for your efforts sally.

To answer your questions, I do not smoke,exercise 5 times weekly(jogging plus 1/2 hr weights etc.) have a perfect blood profile save for cholesterol and Lpa, have no diabetes(5.2 this years' reading for fasting glucose ), do not drink and apart for some digestive problems(too much gas) I'm in terrific shape.

Cleveland Clinic found that I have a slight irritated stomach lining(gastritis) and am wondering if the vitamin C may have worsen the scenario.



Please go ahead and forward a copy of my email to the gentleman who runs the VCF. I cannot help but feel that perhaps I may have been misled. I wish someone could explain.

regards,

John


Interesting. Might recommend sodium bicarb with vitamin C (as Pauling did). Sounds like he is in very good shape, and probably has a healthy cholesterol level for him. Which would explain the "no change." (Statins would artificially block cholesterol production.) So, remind me again, other than the "abnormal" cholesterol reading, what makes this person think that they have heart disease??
Owen R. Fonorow
HeartCURE.Info
American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year

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Re: Cleveland Clinic Trial/A-9 Not Lowering Lp(a)

Post Number:#3  Post by Johnwen » Fri Dec 03, 2010 7:21 am

These numbers seem way to high. First thought is,"Did he fast a full 12 hours before the test?"
Hint is the elevated HDL.
I agree with Owen and he should have these tests done else where.

He agreed to put me on 500mg of NIASPAM FCT for starters

After four weeks he should have taken him up to 1000mg then another four weeks to 1500mg which is a good therapeutic dose and higher if the LPa didn't respond.

This combined with Owen's suggestions should deflate the statin pushers ego's real well.
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is
research!

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Re: Cleveland Clinic Trial/A-9 Not Lowering Lp(a)

Post Number:#4  Post by bbtri » Sat Dec 04, 2010 5:09 am

No vitamin D? I didn't see that mentioned. High cholesterol can be a symptom of D deficiency, just like it is for C. There's lots of good information on http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/, even if he's not a vitamin C advocate. Fish oil also has a positive effect on cholesterol numbers.

VanCanada

Re: Cleveland Clinic Trial/A-9 Not Lowering Lp(a)

Post Number:#5  Post by VanCanada » Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:20 am

bbtri wrote:Fish oil also has a positive effect on cholesterol numbers.
Let's not make the mistake of equating secondary or tertiary markers like cholesterol numbers with heart health.

Also Brian Peskin's review of the scientific literature might have you questioning what you're impying here, that fish oil would be recommended in this case:
PDF file "Fish and Fish Oil Fallacies" http://www.brianpeskin.com/BP.com/reports/CAMB-Fish-Oil-Fallacies-Report.pdf

PDF file "Fish Oil Warning" http://www.brianpeskin.com/BP.com/publications/Dec.2010-Explore19-6.pdf

Brian Peskin's official website http://www.brianpeskin.com/

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Re: Cleveland Clinic Trial/A-9 Not Lowering Lp(a)

Post Number:#6  Post by ofonorow » Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:42 am

Please summarize and then provide a link, especially if the reference is large. Are you arguing against essential fatty acids, or "fish oils" in general? What is your argument?

There is no question that essential fatty acids, especially Omega-3s, are important for health, especially heart health. We have discussed the reasons in great detail over the years (See http://healingmatters.com). In a nutshell, healthy cell membranes require these lipids in the diet on a regular basis. Healthy membranes can transport glucose (and vitamin C) via GLUT insulin transporters. According to Smith's review of the medical research, artificial transfats will substitute for the healthy fats, causing glucose transport (and thus vitamin C transport into cells) to become "gummed" up. The result is Type II diabetes (elevated blood sugar) and this condition makes it much less likely vitamin C can enter cells properly. (This is the theory).

Smith's Type II fix for diabetes is to first eliminate all fats, and then to slowly introduce natural essential fatty acids, allowing the cells membranes to remodel. Trans fats are avoided.

The major point is that fatty acids are essential, and required for good health by trillions of cells, and may impact "vitamin C" metabolism.

Re:

No vitamin D? I didn't see that mentioned. High cholesterol can be a symptom of D deficiency, just like it is for C. There's lots of good information on http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/, even if he's not a vitamin C advocate. Fish oil also has a positive effect on cholesterol numbers.


Vitamin C has a direct, well studied effect on lowering (normalizing) cholesterol as reported by Pauling (HTLLAFB) , and we have put all the Ginter abstracts that Pauling referenced in our clinical studies section. http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=152 We also found the Harwood paper of work that proved vitamin C is a natural statin, i.e., that it inhibits the same enzyme that statin cholesterol lowering drugs inhibit, in a dose dependent manner. http://www.jbc.org/content/261/16/7127.abstract

So it is likely that Vitamin D and fish oil's effects are secondary effects, perhaps by sparing vitamin C. (For example, if one has good vitamin D status in the winter, and does not suffer colds or the flu, then one does not risk ascorbemia - severe depletion of vitamin C from the tissues.)


Owen R. Fonorow
HeartCURE.Info
American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year

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Re: Cleveland Clinic Trial/A-9 Not Lowering Lp(a)

Post Number:#7  Post by majkinetor » Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:42 pm

The discussion about fish oil with Van is here actually, lets not repeat the story in multiple posts.


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