High Blood Pressure on Great Supplement Regimen

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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High Blood Pressure on Great Supplement Regimen

Post Number:#1  Post by ofonorow » Wed Dec 15, 2010 10:41 am

Customer needs vit c now ..blood press is 140/65... why? taking 13grams of c a day
question for doc fonorow.. talked with Sally about it. would like your input?


Need more info. I would say unusual with the much vitamin C, but what about the Pauling therapy? Is he taking lysine too?? What is his total cholesterol? Diabetic?

I would follow the entire protocol http://www.practicingmedicinewithoutalicense.com/protocol/ including and especially magnesium (as some level of magnesium will lower blood pressure.)

If his arteries are getting hard, say from taking antibiotics (killing the intestinal flora that create vitamin K) he needs to supplement vitamin K as wall. (Also in protocol).

Temporary elevated blood pressure is "normal" - e.g., when you are in a doctors office. Can he measure it on his own when he is more relaxed?
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Re: High Blood Pressure on Great Supplement Regimen

Post Number:#2  Post by ofonorow » Wed Dec 15, 2010 10:47 am

am on Metoprolol Tartate 100mg and Lisinprol 40mg daily. My doctor wants me to see a cardologist because I cannot get my b/p under 140./65. What is normal bp for a 61 yr old man?? I take the Heart Therapy and about 10 extra grams of powder vitc daily. Also take 600mg of magnesium, 100mg coq10 100mg of arginine.

My glucose is borderline at 115, and my total cholesterol is high at 267. But I haven"t had blood work in a year or lipid protein a test either. So, how many vitamins do I take and what would a cardogolist really do???....Your help is greatly appreciated Owen.......thanks..Ernie


Tower Heart technology - is that the heart therapy? How long have you been on the Pauling therapy?

Re the drugs: I am not expert and will have to look them up, but cardiologists read our forum
vitamincfoundation.org/forum -> heart disease and I'll post our communications annonymously, hopefully today. They may have some suggestions and comments about those drugs.

Your supplement program is great, (if you are taking the Tower product) and if your arteries are getting hard, it is probably from lack of vitamin K. Many drugs, especially the blood "thinners" can block vitamin K. I would add the super-K product from Life Extension (lef.org) while we are trying to figure this out. We have had several reports of vitamin K working, but it may take a little while.

Vitamin K acts like a hormone and helps move calcium from soft tissues into bones. Stupidly, medicine generally advises heart patients against vitamin K (probably because many drugs work to oppose it.) If the calcium is in your arteries, it would explain the high blood pressure despite the
great Pauling therapy protocol. That is my best guess.

Also, you might want to read healingmatters.com -> articles -> Deception as the same process that is making your sugar high (i.e. trans fats disturbing cell membranes) can also interfere with uptake of vitamin C by your cells. Smith's protocol has worked for many people to lower their blood sugar, which then makes vitamin C supplementation more effective.
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Re: High Blood Pressure on Great Supplement Regimen

Post Number:#3  Post by ofonorow » Wed Dec 15, 2010 10:51 am

You might want to review the first drug at wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metoprolol_Tartrate

e.g.

Due to its selectivity in blocking the beta1 receptors in the heart, metoprolol is also prescribed for off-label use in performance anxiety, social anxiety disorder, and other anxiety disorders.
[edit] Precautions

Metoprolol may worsen the symptoms of heart failure in some patients. Check with your doctor right away if you are having chest pain or discomfort; dilated neck veins; extreme fatigue; irregular breathing; an irregular heartbeat; shortness of breath; swelling of the face, fingers, feet, or lower legs; weight gain; or wheezing.[3]

This medicine may cause changes in your blood sugar levels. Also, this medicine may cover up signs of low blood sugar, such as a rapid pulse rate. Check with your doctor if you have these problems or if you notice a change in the results of your blood or urine sugar tests.[3]

This medicine may cause some people to become less alert than they are normally. If this side effect occurs, do not drive, use machines, or do anything else that could be dangerous if you are not alert while taking metoprolol


Overdosage

Excessive doses of metoprolol can cause severe hypotension, bradycardia, metabolic acidosis, seizures and cardiorespiratory arrest. Blood or plasma concentrations may be measured to confirm a diagnosis of poisoning in hospitalized patients or to assist in a medicolegal death investigation. Plasma levels are usually less than 200 μg/L during therapeutic administration, but can range from 1-20 mg/L in overdose victims


and the second http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisinopril
Adverse effects

Side effects, some or all of which are serious and require immediate medical attention, include:

* Chills, infection
* Dark urine, decreased urination (oliguria)
* Difficulty swallowing or breathing (signs of angioedema), allergic reaction (anaphylaxis)
* Hoarseness
* Itching
* Rapid weight gain, stomach pain
* Yellowing of skin or eyes (jaundice)
* Abdominal pain, bloating, vomiting
* Chest pain or tightness, dizziness, lightheadedness, fainting (syncope)
* Dry cough
* Fever
* Joint pain
* Rash
* Diarrhea, loss of taste, nausea
* Drowsiness, headache, tiredness
* Change in mood/irrational behaviour
* Blurred vision
* Muscle cramps
* Fainting/blackouts
* Increased insulin sensitivity
* Sexual dysfunction
* Serious (possibly fatal) liver problems[5]

Lisinopril causes the kidneys to retain potassium, which may lead to hyperkalemia. From a study of more than 1,000 patients who have hyperkalemia when using Lisinopril, the condition may happen more on older, male users. [6]

A rare but severe allergic reaction can occur that affects the bowel wall and secondarily causes abdominal pain. This "anaphylactic" reaction is very rare, and must be given immediate medical attention.
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Re: High Blood Pressure on Great Supplement Regimen

Post Number:#4  Post by Johnwen » Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:45 am

Metoprolol Tartate 100mg and Lisinprol 40mg daily


These are not first line Hypertense drugs but rather used for on going cardiac problems. Especially at these doses. So I would assume there are some further issues at play here. Generally a low dose diuertic would be added to this regimine such as HCTZ (Hydrochlorthiazide) or Lasix (Furosemide) this generally would bring his pressure down because it hits it at all angles.
I suggest he stay on the Pauling regimene while they figure out what his underlining problems are by then he might not need anything further. Good luck to him!

Did you read how Lisinprol is made?? Know quite a few Docs who won't prescribe it because of this.
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Re: High Blood Pressure on Great Supplement Regimen

Post Number:#5  Post by ofonorow » Fri Dec 24, 2010 9:20 am

Owen, i am on heart tech; which has 2800mg of lysine and 400mg of proline. then of course my usual intake of my daily vitamins.


Okay - so 1 jar/serving, right? And 3000 vitamin C in heart tech plus how much additional C?

My best guess still is high BP from hardening arteries. (Medicine says they measure BP because a small narrowing has an exponential effect on blood pressure, so high blood pressure allows them to guess you have heart disease. But apparently, arteries that can dilate have lower pressure, so calcium in the arterial tissues can also result in high blood pressure readings.)

I am trying to say that you can still have high BP even when the arteries are not narrowing - if they become hard and calcified.

Many years ago now, the President of Tower Laboratories had this experience which led us to believe that vitamin K is an important piece of the puzzle (That combined with the fine articles from Life Extension Foundation on vitamin K). The first thing that happened (he had been on Heart Tech himself for a year or two) , is that he had a CT scan that showed "massive calcium" in his coronary arteries, despite his high Heart (2 jar) Technology intake. After the test suggested by a friend who had developed the Scan, he checked himself into the hospital. The angiogram showed his arterial system was beautiful - no blockages. Moral: The scan measured the calcium in his arteries, but not the blockage.

The next thing that happened was at a trade show. We went to a booth exhibiting a product called CardioVision . This device, combination blood pressure cuff and laptop computer, takes hundreds of blood pressure readings and creates an index of Arterial Stiffness. Mine was normal, but , his arterial stiffness (he was in his 70s at that time) was very high (e.g., His score was five times my score.) Again, we had an indication that his arteries were hard with calcium build-ups.

Thanks to Life Extension, I thought I knew that vitamin K acts like a hormone to move calcium from soft tissue into bone and I suggested that he start supplementing with vitamin K, which he claims he did religiously.

A year later, at the same trade show, he again had his arterial stiffness index (ASI) measured. This time his measurement had dropped to normal! It was now same as mine.

He claims that nothing had changed in his regimen for that year. (Except for one thing, which until now I have kept to myself - he also started using Viagra during that year.)

The only thing we don't know is how fast the vitamin K worked to move the calcium out of his soft tissue into his bones. We do know it doesn't take longer than 1 year.


hi got k1 and k2 vitamins. how much of each should i take? also tell me more about the ceo of tower labs. how much was he taking. and finally should i increase my lysine? and what about the lypsperic vit c that i'm hearing about..........thanks again for all your help!!!


Good questions. Actually the CEO took less vit. K than I recommended - 1 pill with 150 mcg - probably K2 at the amount, we didn't measure his "arterial stiffness" again for a year. I think 1 pill of each daily, probably w/meals as vitamin K is fat soluble.

If you are taking 3000 (1 serving daily) then you are correct, if your disease is more pronounced, as johnwen seems to suspect from your dosages, then Pauling recommended 5000-6000 mg of lysine, or about double. You can get it more economically (extra lysine) in Tower's CardioAde or our Cardio-C.

Livon Lab's Lypo-C is an exciting product that is roughly equivalent to 5000 to 10000 mg of ordinary vitamin C (1 packet). It avoids many absorption and bioavailability problems, but it is expensive. If you can afford to add 1 packet per day, perhaps at bedtime, you would most definitely enhance your Pauling therapy regimen.
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Re: High Blood Pressure on Great Supplement Regimen

Post Number:#6  Post by ofonorow » Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:34 am

hi how are you doing?! my b/p is 140/62 is that ok? do i need to take something or increase my vit k . and do i need to or super k from lef?? have not yet gone back to my doctor. wondering about finding a new one in the greater louisville, ky area ...........your thoughts.....thanks.........ernie


You say that B/P was measured on a home montior. I would yes, order Super-K. I take it. I would also order magnesium from LEF too. (Replied he is currently taking 800 mg). Going to the doctor entails its own risks. Any other problems other than Blood Pressure?
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Re: High Blood Pressure on Great Supplement Regimen

Post Number:#7  Post by majkinetor » Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:23 pm

Stupidly, medicine generally advises heart patients against vitamin K (probably because many drugs work to oppose it.)

I think its probably because of its coagulation function, and heart patients usually get aspirin and other blood thinners.
Now, on Weston Price I read that coagulation role is that of K1 while K2 has other roles among others decalcification.

About blood pressure, there are other things that might be in question apart from atheroscleroses and calcification.

For instance inadequate Renin levels. Renin is protein used by the kidney to regulate blood pressure. Vitamin D controls it.

The results of epidemiological and clinical studies suggest an inverse relationship between serum 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D levels and blood pressure, which may be explained by recent findings that 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D decreases theexpression of the gene encoding renin (see Function).


Depending on Sun exposure, I would suggest preloading of 50,000 IU/day one week, then dropping slowly to 5000 IU/day till the end of the month. Ofc, blood levels of 25(OH)D should be measured (I didn't took tests yet tho with that supplementation regime) and TSH levels. With that huge amounts of D3 (must be D3), at least 100mcg K2 must be usd to prevent eventual toxicity and calcification and 500mg Magnesium-Citrate. 1mg of Iodine or more (up to 10 mg) might also be added to boost the thyroid gland role in Vitamin D activation.

Niacin can also help. It is potent peripheral vasodilator and the best HDL booster in the world. Amounts from 500mg to 3g. Must be taken with Vitamin C if sustained formula is used to prevent Niacin tolerance. Can have few side effects - flushing and itching.

He should also try Grapeseed extract and Resveratol.
If all that doesn't work I would try Arginine therapy without Pauling ( ~5g/day ) to boost NO.
Last edited by majkinetor on Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: High Blood Pressure on Great Supplement Regimen

Post Number:#8  Post by pamojja » Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:23 pm

majkinetor wrote:Niacinamide can also help. It is potent peripheral vasodilator and the best HDL booster in the world. Amounts from 500mg to 3g. Must be taken with Vitamin C if sustained formula is used to prevent Niacin tolerance. Can have few side effects - flushing and itching.


Niacinamide doesn't cause flushing as niacin (nicotinic acid) does, nor I'm aware that niacinamide could raise HDL like niacin - therefore this must be a typo. I would start with an even lower dose of immediate release niacin (100-200mg), because the flushing at that level can already be very severe and scary, if you never experienced it before. And then increase the dose every week (50-100mgs). The strength of the flush also depends on your hydration, empty stomach etc. and can be prevented with a baby aspirin. After getting used to high doses of niacin the flush is almost not perceptible anymore.

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Re: High Blood Pressure on Great Supplement Regimen

Post Number:#9  Post by majkinetor » Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:34 pm

Yes, thx. It was a typo and your advice is good. Some authors even report that sustained variant is not that effective as immediate release. However, the problem seems to be Niacin tolerance that develops with sustained variants and it seems that it is totally preventable (or attenuated) with Vitamin C. I took Now's Niacin for my mother and will report her progress. This is the entire set I ordered for her:


Ascorbat Acid powder, 1kg
Now Foods, L-Lysine Powder, 1 lb (454 g)
Source Naturals, L-Proline Powder, 4 oz (113.4 g)
Now Foods, Magnesium Citrate, 100% Pure Powder, 8 oz (227 g)
Now Foods, L-Arginine Powder, 1 lb (454 g)
Jarrow Formulas, Q-absorb Co-Q10, 100 mg, 120 Softgels
Healthy Origins, Vitamin D3, 5,000 IU, 360 Softgels
Now Foods, Niacin, 500 mg, 250 Tablets
Jarrow Formulas, MK-7, Vitamin K2 as MK-7, 90 mcg, 60 Softgels


I mixed 8g of C , 4g of Lysine, 2g of Proline and 0.5g of Mg powders as daily dose of Pauling Therapy variant. 1 tablet per day of other things except Arginine which I ordered as backup in case above protocol fails and maybe 2 Niacin's per day depending on how well she tolerates it. She is currently on ACE inhibitor Tritace for several years and is otherwise completely healthy. I want to take it off Tritace because her hair test shows hypercalemia (known Tritace adverse effect) although her blood levels are in normal range.

What do you think about this supplement regime ?

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Re: High Blood Pressure on Great Supplement Regimen

Post Number:#10  Post by pamojja » Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:56 am

A note on arginine: at TrackYourTrack it was used at high doses for its vasodilation effect. However, long term use of vitamin D3 seems to have given the same results, and arginine is considered optional now. For not having wasted your money I would use the arginine from the beginning to cover the first time till vit D effects could kick in.

For raising the 25(OH)D level 5000 IU is a good average starting dose, if you also let her do the test after 2 months to reevaluate its effect. There can be big differences in needs.

If you use a 500mg tablet of IR niacin as a first dose, have her taking it with the biggest meal and an aspirin ready. Sustained release niacin, on the other hand, is more taxing the liver when taken in divided doses, its better to take this once a day only.

I have a similar problem with too high calcium in my hair tissue mineral analysis and too low in the serum tests. However, some say high calcium in HTMA doesn't has to mean much and could rather be the sign of an excessive wasting. Since my serum calcium always comes up into its reference range whenever my 25(OH)D came above the 60ng/ml range, I tend to believe my calcium is indeed too low and vitamin D is crucial for me to raise it. But if your mother would really have high calcium, the more important to check vit D and calcium levels again, since vit D improves absorption of calcium that much.

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Re: High Blood Pressure on Great Supplement Regimen

Post Number:#11  Post by majkinetor » Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:57 am

However, long term use of vitamin D3 seems to have given the same results, and arginine is considered optional now. For not having wasted your money I would use the arginine from the beginning to cover the first time till vit D effects could kick in.

Isn't Arginine used as NO precursor ? Louis Ignarro which got the Nobel Prise for describing NO pathway. One of the videos is here.

Vitamin D on the other hand controls Renin among other things which is completely different pathway of vascular tension control (I believe it is, that is ).

BTW, it seems that Lysine blocks Arginine, so thats why i didn't want my mother to take it with Pauling therapy, but separately. Perhaps it can be took in between Pauling therapy doses - I need to check half life time of Lysine.

I have a similar problem with too high calcium in my hair tissue

I am sorry, it was a typo. I ment hyperkalemia. Actually, the side effects of Tritace are pretty scary but so far all the people I know using it don't have anything visible happening. Like I said, my mother checks the blood levels and potassium is always in normal range, however, mineral analyses shows it +150% over the normal level.


About sustained B3 toxicity to liver ... I don't know now if to let my mom take it. I'll research more about it...
The only other one I found here is Twinlab's No-Flush-Niacin Caps. Does anybody have any experience with it ? I read that no-flush solutions are not that effective.

I Found some references:
Fulminant hepatic failure following low-dose sustained-release niacin therapy in hospital.

Mullin GE, Greenson JK, Mitchell MC. Fulminant hepatic failure after ingestion of sustained-release nicotinic acid. Ann Intern Med. 1989 Aug 1;111(3):253–255. [PubMed]

CHRISTENSEN NA, ACHOR RW, BERGE KG, MASON HL. Nicotinic acid treatment of hypercholesteremia. Comparison of plain and sustained-action preparations and report of two cases of jaundice. JAMA. 1961 Aug 26;177:546–550. [PubMed]

Henkin Y, Johnson KC, Segrest JP. Rechallenge with crystalline niacin after drug-induced hepatitis from sustained-release niacin. JAMA. 1990 Jul 11;264(2):241–243. [PubMed]

Baggenstoss AH, Christensen NA, Berge KG, Baldus WP, Spiekerman RE, Ellefson RD. Fine structural changes in the liver in hypercholesteremic patients receiving long-term nicotinic acid therapy. Mayo Clin Proc. 1967 Jul;42(7):385–399. [PubMed]

Patterson DJ, Dew EW, Gyorkey F, Graham DY. Niacin hepatitis. South Med J. 1983 Feb;76(2):239–241. [PubMed]
Hodis HN. Acute hepatic failure associated with the use of low-dose sustained-release niacin. JAMA. 1990 Jul 11;264(2):181–181. [PubMed]

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Re: High Blood Pressure on Great Supplement Regimen

Post Number:#12  Post by pamojja » Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:32 am

majkinetor wrote:About sustained B3 toxicity to liver ... I don't know now if to let my mom take it. I'll research more about it...
The only other one I found here is Twinlab's No-Flush-Niacin Caps. Does anybody have any experience with it ? I read that no-flush solutions are not that effective.


Only above 3.5 gram of IR niacin/day liver enzymes raised slightly - but still within reference ranges. Decreasing niacin a bid brought it down again. In the experience with many patients by Cardiologist Dr. Davis 'No-flush Niacin' had no effect on Lipids whatsoever.

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Re: High Blood Pressure on Great Supplement Regimen

Post Number:#13  Post by majkinetor » Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:02 pm

Any reference for 3.5g claim ?

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Re: High Blood Pressure on Great Supplement Regimen

Post Number:#14  Post by pamojja » Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:11 pm

Not at all. This was just my experience last Autumn and though the values improved again by reducing niacin, there might as well be other factors contributing to that rise..

And from experiences of others I know that individual tolerance of niacin could be very different.

J.Lilinoe

Re: High Blood Pressure on Great Supplement Regimen

Post Number:#15  Post by J.Lilinoe » Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:30 am

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/134/11/3100.full

Dietary Intake of Menaquinone Is Associated with a Reduced Risk of Coronary Heart Disease: The Rotterdam Study

ABSTRACT
Vitamin K–dependent proteins, including matrix Gla-protein, have been shown to inhibit vascular calcification. Activation of these proteins via carboxylation depends on the availability of vitamin K. We examined whether dietary intake of phylloquinone (vitamin K-1) and menaquinone (vitamin K-2) were related to aortic calcification and coronary heart disease (CHD) in the population-based Rotterdam Study. The analysis included 4807 subjects with dietary data and no history of myocardial infarction at baseline (1990–1993) who were followed until January 1, 2000. The risk of incident CHD, all-cause mortality, and aortic atherosclerosis was studied in tertiles of energy-adjusted vitamin K intake after adjustment for age, gender, BMI, smoking, diabetes, education, and dietary factors. The relative risk (RR) of CHD mortality was reduced in the mid and upper tertiles of dietary menaquinone compared to the lower tertile [RR = 0.73 (95% CI: 0.45, 1.17) and 0.43 (0.24, 0.77), respectively]. Intake of menaquinone was also inversely related to all-cause mortality [RR = 0.91 (0.75, 1.09) and 0.74 (0.59, 0.92), respectively] and severe aortic calcification [odds ratio of 0.71 (0.50, 1.00) and 0.48 (0.32, 0.71), respectively]. Phylloquinone intake was not related to any of the outcomes. These findings suggest that an adequate intake of menaquinone could be important for CHD prevention.


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