It is currently Sun Apr 20, 2014 7:20 am




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ] 
 Vitamin C effect on Cholesterol 
Author Message
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:53 pm
Posts: 139
Post Vitamin C effect on Cholesterol
Reduced my cholesterol from 260 to 180 w/ regular niacin 1000mg, 3x day(Dr. uses old system of cholesterol values). Have been taking vitamin c 15g, proline 2g, lysine 6g for 2 months now. My question to the forum is how effective has the Pauling therapy been to reduce cholesterol? Would like to stop taking the niacin if possible since it makes me feel tired most of the day. Owen's book speaks anecdotally of needing 6 months to effectively reduce Lp a. I would like to hear of others' experience w/ this. Any comments would be appreciated.


Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:24 pm
Profile
Vitamin C Master
Vitamin C Master

Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:44 am
Posts: 220
Post Re: Vitamin C effect on Cholesterol
Though anecdotal experiences might not mean much due to very individual biochemistry - these are my experiences after about 2 years on Pauling's, and for 1 year adding Dr. Davis recommendations too. Because the former in my case of a serious PAD - though improving the walking distance quite a bit - wasn't clearing it completely. The difference of my main symptom (which in my eyes is more telling than maybe/maybe not correlating cholesterol values):

* at the beginning a walking distance of only 3-400m before pain forced me to take a break,
* after one year 1-2 km ...
* now 2 hours of slow walking before the first sensations remind me of my original PAD (numbness), additionally I'm able for the first time to do short sprints again.

Too bad I've got my Lp(a) first tested only one year ago, therefore I can't know how much it already might have dropped till that date. The last year with in average 18g vit C, 6g lysine and 2.5g proline/daily it constantly dropped a few points every few months: from 57 mg/dl down to 41 mg/dl 4 months ago. This very gradual drop was surprising, since I heard individual Lp(a) test-results aren't that reliable, because they could fluctuate greatly, as with momentary stress (a factor that is often present during a doc's visit for me). However, with the most recent test my Lp(a) was back up to 50 mg/dl. :-(
So after all not much of an improvement with Lp(a) during this whole last year..

Contributing factors which could have played some role might be other supplements I used for Lp(a) reduction, for example carnitine or guggulu. Because I heard of opposing opinions, that these two actually might contribute to worsening of thyroid functions (which in turn could have a role in raising Lp(a)). therefore I recently took a temporary break from these 2 to see. And in my most recent tests thyroid was indeed improving for the first time..

Code:
      2008   2009   1010
   LDL   196   180   102
   HDL   27   33   54
   trig.    156   77   62

vitamin B3   1.5 g    3 g
vitamin D3   70 µg    200 µg
DHA/EPA      2.6 g    5.5 g
proline      1.4 g   2.6 g
lysine      4.5 g   6.5 g
vitamin C   15g    18 g


Triglycerides more likely got a lowering effect with fish-oil and sugar/wheat elimination alone. And in my case vitamin B3, D3 and other factors with beneficial effects on LDL and/or HDL have certainly compounded these results. But still, it isn't too speculative to conclude that 15g of vitamin C wasn't having a really significant effect after the first year with respect to my LDL and HDL.

Beside my Lp(a) also homocysteine isn't as low I would want it to be (..nasty niacin), but soon I'll figure this out too. Whatever.. I can even run again! :-)

Cobraman wrote:
Would like to stop taking the niacin if possible since it makes me feel tired most of the day.


One way to get certain about this would be taking niacin vacations and see how your lipids react. An other way I could think of, especially since niacin might raise liver enzymes with the slo-release forms especially if taken more often than once a day, and since immediate release niacin seems even more effective when not taken that regularly, the best way to avoid your tiredness could be taking the whole day's dose with the last big meal of the day, and after that profit from a healthy sleep on top of it. Of course, you probably know you would have to get used to such high single doses because of the flush, or take a baby aspirin for reducing it.


Sun Jan 30, 2011 3:10 pm
Profile
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:53 pm
Posts: 139
Post Re: Vitamin C effect on Cholesterol
Thanks for the reply. I use immediate release w/ divided doses because it is easier on the liver. I intend to check my cholesterol w/o the niacin in a couple of months to see if the vit c w/ proline and lysine does, in fact, lower my ldl. In your case the niacin would have lowered the Lpa by itself. Immediate release also increases hdl whereas the slow release has little effect on this. Niacin has been shown to improve heart health despite the fact that it increases homocysteine levels. To remove this negative side effect you can just take an effective dose of TMG(tri methyl glycine), 500 to 2000mg a day.


Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:27 am
Profile
Vitamin C Expert
Vitamin C Expert

Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2010 8:36 am
Posts: 906
Post Re: Vitamin C effect on Cholesterol
You should also check out this list.
Six cholesterol lowering supplements and nutrients wrote:
1. Dietary fibre locks up cholesterol in your bile salts, so that it is not reabsorbed, and eliminates it from your body. Raw salad leaves, broccoli and 'GG-Bran' crispbreads are suitable low-carbohydrate sources of fibre.
2. Lecithin emulsifies cholesterol and isolates it from the walls of your arteries so that it can't stick to them. Take two tablespoons of lecithin granules daily.
3. Essential fatty acids — omega-6 from borage oil and omega-3 from fish oils (or linseed oil if you prefer) — control cholesterol production, reduce your risk of blood clots, lower blood pressure and keep your arteries supple. Take 1,500 mg of each daily.
4. Niacin is one of the most effective cholesterol-lowering nutrients, outperforming many prescription medications. It also reduces blood fat levels and the risk of clot formation. Take 100 to 500 mg daily. Using the inositol hexanicotinate form will reduce the possibility of liver toxicity. Always take a high-dose vitamin-B complex supplement at the same time.
5. Chromium reduces blood fat and cholesterol levels, and blood pressure. It also stabilises blood sugar levels and helps correct insulin resistance. 200 to 400 mcg daily is usually enough, but you may need up to 1,000 mcg if you are diabetic.
6. Pantethine, a derivative of pantothenic acid (Vitamin B5), plays a pivotal role in cholesterol metabolism. In one study, 900 mg a day caused a 32 per cent drop in blood fats and a 21 per cent drop in LDL ('bad' cholestreol), while HDL ('good' cholesterol) levels rose by 23 per cent. Take 500 to 1,000 mg a day.


Mathis Rath protocol explained in this free pdf:

Quote:
In addition, to my Basic Cellular Health recommendations (page 25), I recommend that patients with elevated cholesterol levels and other metabolic disorders to take the following cellular bioenergy factors in higher dosages:
•Vitamin C: fortheprotection and natural healing of the artery walls, lowering increased production of cholesterol and other secondary risk factors in the liver and reducing elevated blood levels of these secondary risk factors
•Vitamin E: for antioxidant protection of blood fats and millions of cells
•Vitamin B1: for optimizing cellular metabolism and, particularly, for the delivery of bioenergy
•Vitamin B2: for optimizing cellular metabolism and, particularly, for the delivery of bioenergy
•Vitamin B3: for lowering the elevated production of cholesterol and lipoproteins in the liver
•Vitamin B5: for the structural component of the central metabolic molecule of cells coenzyme A) and optimal metabolic burning of fat molecules
•Vitamin B6, Biotin and Folic Acid: for counteracting increased levels of the risk factor homocysteine and optimizingthemetabolism of cells
•Carnitine: for optimizing cellular metabolism of fats and lowering triglyceride levels


I guess in Raths book you can find more detailed explanation of how it can help and in what measure, since Pauling and Rath worked both on Pauling Therapy.


Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:19 am
Profile
Vitamin C Master
Vitamin C Master

Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:44 am
Posts: 220
Post Re: Vitamin C effect on Cholesterol
Cobraman wrote:
To remove this negative side effect you can just take an effective dose of TMG(tri methyl glycine), 500 to 2000mg a day.

Thanks. Though increasing TMG together with niacin hasn't worked yet for me. Therefore, at the moment I'm experimenting with a 1:1 niacin to TMG ratio. The next test will show.


Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:25 am
Profile
Vitamin C Master
Vitamin C Master

Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:44 am
Posts: 220
Post Re: Vitamin C effect on Cholesterol
majkinetor wrote:
4. Niacin is one of the most effective cholesterol-lowering nutrients, outperforming many prescription medications. It also reduces blood fat levels and the risk of clot formation. Take 100 to 500 mg daily. Using the inositol hexanicotinate form will reduce the possibility of liver toxicity.


Sure, but Dr. Davis, who gave niacin to many patients, disadvises against inositol hexanicotinate because it never showed any effect on lipids in his clinical experience. To avoid the flushing-issue he recommends slow release forms, but because these taxes the liver for more hours each day - a once a day dose only.

IR niacin is much easier on the liver and, if I remember it right, I think Abrahm Hoffer never observed it in his patients for decades.


Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:37 am
Profile
Vitamin C Expert
Vitamin C Expert

Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2010 8:36 am
Posts: 906
Post Re: Vitamin C effect on Cholesterol
Perhaps combination of Vitamin C with goat whey and SR niacin then can alleviate those problems. Whey contains cysteine and is used for centuries as liver cleansing drink. Goats produce the largest amounts of Vitamin C (I think around 20g/day under normal circumstances) and goat milk is the closest to human milk. In my country people with hepatitis drink whey regularly. Additional Vitamin C could be used to protect glutathion even more and for other benefits.


Quote:
Probiotic drink – natur and orange.
Completely natural mineral drink for good mood
Treats insomnia and depression in a natural way
It contains the proteins of the highest biological value (lactoalbumin and lactoglobulin)
It has a beneficial effect on the digestive system, improves digestion and metabolism.
It is recommended in the prevention and treatment of liver disorders, osteoporosis, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, inflammation of skin and mucous membrane, and improving kidney functions.
Source

I don't know if dry whey protein has that effect. Some claim that it doesn't because proteins are then denatured and fold irregularly so some ratios are not natural then... I failed to see how that can be true since proteins are digested into amino acids anyway so fold is not important, however, I don't have any experience with this and I know some people here use raw whey exclusively.

BTW, isn't flushing issue temporary ? Several weeks at most ?
I didn't know about this effect of 'tiredness' Cobraman speaks of. Any hints to why could it be happening ? I understood that Hoffer was taking bunch of niacin per day preventively. Also, since it is used for alcoholism and depression, I wonder is it really niacin that does that, or maybe some unfortunate combination of supplements. Tiredness on the long run is pretty depressive.


Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:55 am
Profile
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:53 pm
Posts: 139
Post Re: Vitamin C effect on Cholesterol
I agree w/ the inositol hexaniacinate. Studies have proven this to be ineffective in reducing cholesterol. Because some people anecdotally said it reduced ldl I tried it for 3 month w/ no reduction in cholesterol. The tiredness I am feeling is a common side effect of taking immediate release niacin. In fact, some use it for a sleeping aid. I would guess that it is somehow related to its effects on insulin(tends to reduce it) which is why niacin is contraindicated in diabetics. As far as the flushing goes I only flushed for 2 weeks and this was easily controlled w/ a low dose aspirin.

I need to take 1000mg 3x a day for effectiveness, safety, and eliminate the flushing/itching. For some reason the 3x works the best from my trial and error and from the book "The Niacin Cure".

Goes back to my original question of whether the vit c has reduced anyone's cholesterol profile. I do understand that too much emphasis is put on the numbers, but it does hold some indication of heart health.

Majkinetor, if I may ask, what country are you from?


Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:58 am
Profile
Vitamin C Expert
Vitamin C Expert

Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2010 8:36 am
Posts: 906
Post Re: Vitamin C effect on Cholesterol
Serbia.

Thx for the report.


Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:47 am
Profile
Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard

Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:16 pm
Posts: 8845
Location: Lisle, IL
Post Re: Vitamin C effect on Cholesterol
First, to the poster whose Lp(a) is "back up to 50 mg/dl" - I would like to spend time on a separate thread. Do you trust that measurement?

Cobraman wrote:
Reduced my cholesterol from 260 to 180 w/ regular niacin 1000mg, 3x day(Dr. uses old system of cholesterol values). Have been taking vitamin c 15g, proline 2g, lysine 6g for 2 months now. My question to the forum is how effective has the Pauling therapy been to reduce cholesterol? Would like to stop taking the niacin if possible since it makes me feel tired most of the day. Owen's book speaks anecdotally of needing 6 months to effectively reduce Lp a. I would like to hear of others' experience w/ this. Any comments would be appreciated.


As you may have read in my book, I began to have a stronger confidence in Linus Pauling when my total cholesterol (measured for a life insurance exam perhaps 20 years ago) was 180 mg/dl. For this is the number Pauling has in his book (HTLLAFB) as "normal". You can find it in the cholesterol section discussing Ginters work (and we have posted many of Ginter's abstracts in our clinical studies forum.) Manhattan Project physicist Theodore Jorgenson (at that time 99 years old!) wrote that he had the same experience,

Quote:
With this information in mind, I decided to eliminate sucrose in my diet as much as I could in our culture while I arbitrarily set my intake of ascorbic acid at five gram per day. Much to my doctor's surprise, my cholesterol level fell from 240 units down to 180 units. I know of similar experiments with similar results. Also I have not had a cold since I have been taking the larger amount of ascorbic acid.

http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/jorgensen.htm

_________________
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath


Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:23 am
Profile
Vitamin C Master
Vitamin C Master

Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:44 am
Posts: 220
Post Re: Vitamin C effect on Cholesterol
ofonorow wrote:
I would like to spend time on a separate thread. Do you trust that measurement?

Really don't know what to think of it. As already said, I heard Lp(a) test can be erratic, especially in mg/dl. Feel free to start a new thread on that.


Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:17 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ] 


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group.
Designed by Vjacheslav Trushkin for Free Forums/DivisionCore.