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 VC....... not exacty the results I was looking for!!! 
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Post Re: VC....... not exacty the results I was looking for!!!
Probably worth taking the last message and starting a new topic on ferritin.

Regarding J.'s supplements:

Quote:
20000-25000 mg VC
6000 mg lysine
6000 mg l-proline
2000 mg Niacin
1000 iu VE
1000 IU D3
1000 mg omega 3
200 mg Q10
100 mg Magnesium Citrate
B complex complete
100 mg grape seed extract
1000mg l-arginine


Here are my thoughts /tweaks.

You mentioned IP/6 but not listed?

Do you also take a multi-vitamin?

What is your total vitamin A? (HT has vitamin A, come to think of it - are you still on HT?) There is a certain magic to HT that may be due to the vitamin A (An essential nutrient that everyone tries to avoid these days!)

The proline may be high. As this may interfere with the laying down of plaque,
thus "healing". Conjecture. Do we know your Lp(a)? If normal or high, ignore this comment.

Depending on where you live (you shovel snow) you should probably be at least 5,000 iu vitamin D3. (I have been taking 10,000 iu oral D(3) this winter, plus my artificial sun lamp). Less in summer.

Hopefully at least some of the vitamin E is Unique-E from A.C. Grace.

Have you started Lypo C? (Are these vitamin C numbers your tolerance or could you take more ordinary vitamin C?)

Also, no vitamin K? (Vitamins A/D/K are an important complex, and perhaps cod liver oil plus some Super-K from LEF)

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Sun Mar 06, 2011 11:18 am
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Post Re: VC....... not exacty the results I was looking for!!!
Another comment from Dr. Levy

Quote:

Hi Owen,

OK, I confess to sometimes being too sensitive for my own good. I read other blogs (non-scientific), and I get amazed at how quickly people get insulting and vicious from their basements across the country (not saying that is the case here at all). The point of that is simply part of the reason I don't like the get into blogs or online discussions to begin with. They consume precious time, and so many people continue to goad each other into time-consuming replies. Most of everything I write about here I have already written on elsewhere, and I am only trying to help, since it doesn't really help me, only takes time of which I have very little these days.

One more point to jknosplr: if you can afford it, a far infrared sauna will help drop ferritin levels quite rapidly, and in a relatively nontoxic manner (most chelation therapies have variable amounts of retoxification involved in getting toxins out of the body). Also, it detoxifies just about everything else under the sun, including heavy metals. And no, it is little discussed in the literature. I personally think it is the best long-term health-promoting habit to get into.

Keep us all posted.

Best regards,

Dr. Levy


Sounds to me like a business opportunity -- a chain of infrared sauna spas (like current tanning spas).. Franchise... And if somebody actually does this, it should include chlorine-free hot tubs, perhaps using the new "instant hot water" technology.. Sorry, back to reality.

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Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:19 pm
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Post Re: VC....... not exacty the results I was looking for!!!
As of 03/01/211

20000-25000 mg VC/day 14 lbs per year...............you do the math
6000 mg lysine/day
6000 mg l-proline/day
1000 mg Niacin/day
1000 iu VE/day
1000 IU D3/day
1000 mg omega 3/day
200 mg Q10/day
100 mg Magnesium Citrate/day
B complex complete/day
100 mg grape seed extract/day
1000mg l-arginine/day
added to protocol
100mcg vit K/day
10000 iu Vit A/day
2gr IP6 and Inositol/day

Quote:
The proline may be high. As this may interfere with the laying down of plaque,
thus "healing". Conjecture. Do we know your Lp(a)? If normal or high, ignore this comment.


Lp(a) was 6 mg/dl Why would I want to lay down plaq? I thought the whole idea was to make the LP(a) slippery with the lysine so it would not stick and build? Proline enhances the lysine???

Quote:
(Are these vitamin C numbers your tolerance or could you take more ordinary vitamin C?)
yes this it the BT.


Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:06 am
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Post Re: VC....... not exacty the results I was looking for!!!
jknosplr wrote:
20000-25000 mg VC/day 14 lbs per year...............you do the math
The radio interview listed below discusses the possible negative consequences of mega-dose vitamin C. The relevant info starts at around minute 70. In light of your high ferritin levels I would consider greatly cutting back on the vitamin C dosage until the oxidative stress from the ferritin is reduced.

(I would like to cross post this to the other thread regarding negative effects from vitmamin C - any general comments not related to jknosplr's situation should be posted there please and thank you. If the moderator is peeved by cross posting just nuke it, or ask me and I will save you the bother)
(I have transcribed the juiciest bits from this interview - coming soon.)

The two doctors interviewed are Dr. Mark Obrenovich & Dr. Aliev Gjumrakch.

Super Human Radio show # 677 - Does Weightlifting Shorten Your Life? PLUS The Role Of Antioxidants In Health, Disease And Aging
http://www.superhumanradio.com/super-human-radio-show/677-does-weightlifting-shorten-your-life-plus-the-role-of-antioxidants-in-health-disease-and-aging.html


Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:21 pm
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Post Re: VC....... not exacty the results I was looking for!!!
Hows about the condensed version my browser locks up when I execute your link.


Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:20 pm
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Post Re: VC....... not exacty the results I was looking for!!!
Agreed, please post the transcript if you can, and thanks if you do. I cannot get audio or video on my backwoods internet.

Came across this:
14. Arteriosclerosis. Over 30 (55 now) years ago, two ophthalmologists observed that a combination tablet called "Iodo-niacin" (iodide 120 milligrams, niacin 15 milligrams) taken for several months could actually reverse atherosclerotic clogging of arteries. They proved this effect by taking pictures of clogged arteries in the backs of the eyes (retinal photomicrographs) before and after treatment. The published photographs showed a significant lessening of the cholesterol-laden artery clogging in the "after" pictures. [14] True to cause, no follow-up study has ever been published (probably because niacin and iodide aren't patentable). Recommended is 1 to 2 drops of SSKI or Lugol's and niacin-containing B-complex daily (along with essential fatty acids or fish oil) for anyone with significant cholesterol-related atherosclerotic clogging. Thyroid function must be monitored!
14. Use of Iodo-Niacin, Abrahamson, I. A.: American Journal of Ophthalmology 42 (5): 771-772 1956

Here:http://web.archive.org/web/20070908193524/http:/panaminstitute.com/de-iodine.htm

I would really like to see the original and complete paper, but this is all I can turn up. Predates Dr Bush a bit. Consistent with Ely & Abraham/Flechas, Note the "recommendation" has almost zero correspondence to the described experiment, as concerns dosage.

FRM


Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:52 am
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Post Re: VC....... not exacty the results I was looking for!!!
Quote:
I would consider greatly cutting back on the vitamin C dosage


Given that it is not your life, I wonder if this is true? Would you really cut back? To me, this recommendation illustrates a profound ignorance of what Linus Pauling told us. Dr. Levy has studied the ferrittin issue and hopefully we'll know what his thoughts are - which is more dangerous with high ferritin - too little or too much vitamin C.

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Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:20 pm
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Post Re: VC....... not exacty the results I was looking for!!!
ofonorow wrote:
Given that it is not your life, I wonder if this is true?
Irrelevant. I'm providing information. End of story. My life and yours are irrelevant. Let's focus on the issues at hand and avoid the melodrama by trying to drag in personalities and hypothetical What If questions. A real N.D. would probably be fired for doing that. Oh, I forgot...

ofonorow wrote:
To me, this recommendation illustrates a profound ignorance of what Linus Pauling told us.
You've been sipping the Linus Kool-Aid a wee bit too long methinks. As a scientist's scientist I wager Pauling himself would have been scratching his head right about now at how you so readily worship at the sacred cow, even if the cow is the collection of Pauling's hypotheses themselves. Kind of ironic, isn't it?


Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:52 pm
Post Re: VC....... not exacty the results I was looking for!!!
At minute77 s30:
Vitamin C is key as an antioxidant. But...

"If someone is on chemotherapy and their chemotherapy mechanism of action is oxidative stress induced cytotoxicity then if you take too much vitamin C while having your chemo you could actually raise the therapeutic threshold of the dose... and require more of the chemotherapy to do its prospective effectiveness by taking too much vitamin C."

"One size does not fit all."

"It's absolutely an essential antioxidant that we should all take."

at minute 79:
In a healthy person it's usually fine.

But if you are elderly or diabetic you could have increased glycation due to the oxidation of vitamin C from its reduced form to its oxidized form (Dehydro ascorbic acid). Dehydro ascorbic acid can also break down into alpha 2,3-di keto glyronic acid (sp?) and other reactive intermediates that behave JUST LIKE sugar.

Vitamin C in its reduced form can be very beneficial. But in its oxidized form it can be deleterious, such as when it causes some of the glycation in the protein of the eye's lens in diabetics.

END of transcription.
-----

Off topic editorial: I'm not sure at this point if Dr. Mark Obrenovich is full of manure or not, but I would love for more scientists to get on these issues. It's long overdue, i.e. research into both the pros and the cons of proper dose ascorbate therapy.

Since Dr. Levy showed elsewhere on this forum he knows not a lot about pharacokinetics I'm less confident in his theoretical musings on Obrenovich's work. His clinical work is another matter entirely; it cannot be seriously questioned and should be worth more than anything else in helping jknosplr weigh his options.

I will try to transcribe for you more of the interview, because of the interest expressed above. Dr. Aliev Gjumrakch seemed to have good input too but his audio was overmodulated and his accent was thick as molasses. Thanks for your patience and also thanks for not following the moderator's example by trying to shoot the messenger first, ask questions later, heh heh heh heh ;)


Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:10 pm
Ascorbate Wizard
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Post Re: VC....... not exacty the results I was looking for!!!
Quote:
Hello Owen,

OK, let's see if some sanity (and science) can be restored to this thread. It's perfectly fine for individuals to seek out information and offer their perspectives, but it is quite another thing to offer harmful advice when one just has a feeling that something must be so. It's tough enough to be any kind of patient these days, without having to deal with someone goading you to pursue the exact opposite advice of what is best.

Vitamin C helps normalize iron levels in individuals who are iron-depleted, reducing Fe3+ to Fe2+, a better absorbed form of iron. Furthermore, the vitamin C must be in contact with the absorbable iron, or the effect won't occur. Even if there were a legitimate concern over the interaction of vitamin C and iron, staggering the times of intake of the two would obviate the need for concern. To cut back on the intake of the most important antioxidant available to let oxidative stress somehow become "reduced" on its own defies logic and is patently reckless. Even if (for the sake of argument) more iron (above normal levels) was coming in with more vitamin C, the damage inflicted by any excess iron already present in the body would literally explode if vitamin C intake was instead severely curtailed. A persistent fable is that megadoses of vitamin C becomes "prooxidant." Quite the opposite. When smaller doses of vitamin C (a few hundred milligrams) increase oxidative stress via Fenton chemistry, the only way to get the resulting oxidative stress down is with much larger doses of vitamin C, not less.

Iron in the blood vessel is probably the most important accelerator of coronary heart disease. It is the final common denominator for the majority of oxidative stress generated in the arterial wall or anywhere else it is in excess. Elevated levels of iron (ferritin) reliably increase the rate of atherosclerosis. Even under 100 ng/cc ferritin, atherosclerosis will significantly lessen as the ferritin levels drops a few more points, and reliably increases as it increases only a few points. Mind you, 100 ng/cc is a "low normal" level of ferritin as measured in most laboratories today. Remember that all tests aim to make a majority of the population normal, which assumes that a majority of the population is normal, an egregiously incorrect assumption.

In the past, our forefathers exercised a lot, and sweated their iron out regularly to maintain a reasonable equilibrium. But most importantly, they weren't being force-fed iron in every processed food there is, especially pasta, cereals, rice, and you-name-it. Just because some third-world country populations have a great deal of iron deficiency anemia, our public health geniuses decided they would "prevent" any such condition from ever occuring in the United States by overdosing us on iron. On my website, http://www.peakenergy.com , you can see the video demonstrating the metallic iron filings that can easily be extracted from the cereal so many eat every day. Where do you think that crap goes? Answer, into storage. So now, we don't exercise, we don't sweat, and we consume iron that subsequently can't possibly be excreted by our bodies, except for the pre-menstrual ladies, who have a physiological phlebotomy every month. Ever wonder why the ladies live longer than the men? Less accumulated iron over their lives is the main reason.

You don't want any more iron than it takes to maintain a normal hemoglobin level. In fact, even small accumulations of iron are so toxic and so undesirable in the overall acceleration of aging, your overall health would probably optimized if you have the indications of an early, or minimal, iron deficiency anemia. There is a lot of controversy over what is definitively an anemic level of hemoglobin. When you are in the "low normal" levels of hemoglobin, and a few small and pale red blood cells (microcytic, hypochromic) appear on a blood smear and your ferritin is 15 ng/cc, you are, more or less, enjoying optimally minimized body stores of iron.

Now, anybody who thinks all is this is ridiculous is welcome to their thoughts, and I won't be offended by whatever tangents subsequently evolve in this, or other, threads. Just remember this is a scientific blog, not a political or a travel blog, and people are hoping to improve their health by reading what is offered.

So, guys and gals of the forum, explore everything that merits exploration. But be a little more guarded in giving advice (as in no advice at all) to individuals who are trying to cope with important health issues (progressive atherosclerosis) when you really have no expertise in that area. A doctor like myself is wrong more than I care to admit, but I am always striving to understand pathophysiology through the scientific method, not by convenient hunch. I'll certainly have comments in the future, but rarely this extensive. My research and time involved took more than an hour for this entry, and I don't intend to do that on a regular basis. A concept such as the importance of de-ironing the body needs to be read by many thousands of people (or even more), not a hundred or so. I put a great deal of effort into my research and writings, and I want as many people to benefit as possible. This forum is great, but it cannot disseminate information like a best-selling book or a well-placed article. I gave a little advice early-on in this thread, and I felt obliged to have a reasonable follow-up and follow-through on what I initially wrote.

Best regards,

Dr. Levy


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Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:48 am
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Post Re: VC....... not exacty the results I was looking for!!!
pamojja wrote:
LEF gives as optimal range 50-150 ng/ml. And some say for hormone optimization even as much 150 ng/ml in men might be needed.
ofonorow wrote:
Probably worth taking the last message and starting a new topic on ferritin.

Don't think so - since this thread is now about ferritin in cardiovascular disease.
Dr. Levy wrote:
There is a lot of controversy over what is definitively an anemic level of hemoglobin. When you are in the "low normal" levels of hemoglobin, and a few small and pale red blood cells (microcytic, hypochromic) appear on a blood smear and your ferritin is 15 ng/cc, you are, more or less, enjoying optimally minimized body stores of iron.

I take this to mean you never saw a deterioration with thyroid or other hormones in your clinical experience with such low ferritin levels? - Or you aren't concerned about?
Dr. Levy wrote:
A concept such as the importance of de-ironing the body needs to be read by many thousands of people (or even more), not a hundred or so. I put a great deal of effort into my research and writings, and I want as many people to benefit as possible. This forum is great, but it cannot disseminate information like a best-selling book or a well-placed article.

I totally agree about the importance of this topic, but topics like this do get read by thousands of people over time. Anyone googling 'ferritin+cardiovascular' would find it. Which isn't that much the case with books, and it is far from given that books about this topic make it to a best-selling one without promotion on networks, these days.


Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:29 am
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Post Re: VC....... not exacty the results I was looking for!!!
Quote:
Quote:
The proline may be high. As this may interfere with the laying down of plaque,
thus "healing". Conjecture. Do we know your Lp(a)? If normal or high, ignore this comment.


Lp(a) was 6 mg/dl Why would I want to lay down plaq? I thought the whole idea was to make the LP(a) slippery with the lysine so it would not stick and build? Proline enhances the lysine???


Well, 6 is borderline, given proline's apparent ability to "turn off" Lp(a) production in the liver.

Lets review the Pauling/Rath theory.

Animals that produce their own vitamin C 24/7 keep their blood vessels strong. Lesions rarely appear, and as Dr. Rath has noted, their is a distinct lack of the type of cardiovascular disease that is found in humans (and found in gorillas and guinea pigs) in other animals.

In species that cannot make their own vitamin C, their endogenous collagen production is limited. Before they die of scurvy, their arteries first deteriorate and weaken, what Pauling/Levy calls "chronic scurvy" or "focal scurvy" (scurvy in the arterial wall).

In support of the idea that plaques (Lp(a)) are surrogates for low vitamin C levels (thus low collagen levels) is the observation first made by Willis that atherosclerotic plaques appear regularly in the same places in the arterial system, i.e., where the blood pressures are highest. Near the beating heart.

Pauling and Rath theorize that after the ancestors of mankind lost the ability to make vitamin C out of glucose (GLU defect) there was a "natural selection" for those who could make Lp(a). Lp(a) did not prevent the lesions, but starts the process of forming plaque which acts as a "plaster cast" to keep the arteries from leaking. (Again, in support of theory, Pauling and Rath noted in their first "Lp(a) Binding Inhibitor" patent that there exists a 1000 fold variation in Lp(a) levels in the population - apparently Lp(a) is a recent evolutionary adaption, and levels vary widely.)

So back to proline, your Lp(a) and your situation J. According to the Pauling/Rath theory, lesions have and possibly are appearing in your coronary arteries due to mechanical stress and a lack of collagen. The body's healing process has covered these lesions with atheromas which eventually becomes hardened plaque. (Dr. Levy describes the process in great detail in STOP AMERICA'S #1 KILLER, and also explains how low vitamin C (Focal Scurvy) is the root cause of almost everything that happens during the cascade of events in CVD.)

By taking vitamin C (and lysine and proline, and to a lesser degree vitamin B6, copper, etc.) you are giving your body the ability to make collagen. If you make sufficient collagen, you can keep your arterial system strong and healthy. The miracle is that at the same time these nutrients promote the production of collagen, they also have the magical ability to dissolve and prevent the build-up of future plaques. The Lp(a) "binding inhibitor" property. (We know from Bush that hard calcified plaques can take "years" to resolve.)

But what if your vitamin C is being diverted from the purpose of producing collagen (which requires one molecule of ascorbate to produce one collagen molecule)? Perhaps vitamin C is diverted because of a raging fire of free radicals from dental or other toxicity toxicity? Of from a chronic infection? Or perhaps a high ferrittin level is diverting vitamin C (using it up)?

In this case, the CVD - the Lp(a) based plaques - may not be overshooting, they may keeping your coronary arteries reasonably stable.

So the answer may not be to increase proline (again, higher serum proline levels may have the property of "signaling" the liver whether or not to produce more Lp(a).

The answer most certainly is to get the most vitamin C into your system as possible, and that seems to mean adding Lypo-C in your case (at bowel tolerance).

And it means identifying and reducing (per Dr. Levy's advice) sources of toxicity that can be draining your vitamin C reserves, e.g. ferrittin.

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Fri Mar 11, 2011 9:51 am
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Post Re: VC....... not exacty the results I was looking for!!!
Quote:
Well, 6 is borderline, given proline's apparent ability to "turn off" Lp(a) production in the liver.


The last several tests prior to the last on (6mg/dl) was 1mg/dl.

Quote:
In this case, the CVD - the Lp(a) based plaques - may not be overshooting, they may keeping your coronary arteries reasonably stable.

So the answer may not be to increase proline (again, higher serum proline levels may have the property of "signaling" the liver whether or not to produce more Lp(a).

The answer most certainly is to get the most vitamin C into your system as possible, and that seems to mean adding Lypo-C in your case (at bowel tolerance).

And it means identifying and reducing (per Dr. Levy's advice) sources of toxicity that can be draining your vitamin C reserves, e.g. ferrittin.


To cut through the chase, do I stop the proline or continue with the current protocol I been using for the last 1.5 - 2 years?

20gr VC is about the max my system will handle BT.

We are currently entertaining several of the Iron options, implementing the IP-6 supplement.


Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:06 am
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Post Re: VC....... not exacty the results I was looking for!!!
Quote:

To cut through the chase, do I stop the proline or continue with the current protocol I been using for the last 1.5 - 2 years?

20gr VC is about the max my system will handle BT.

We are currently entertaining several of the Iron options, implementing the IP-6 supplement.



If it were me, and my Lp(a) was that low, (now 1 mg) I would at least cut proline in half. (HT has 400 mg, so most therapeutic users would receive 800 to 1200 daily (2 to 3 servings) with excellent reports.)

The beauty of Lypo-C is that you can obtain even higher ascorbate levels (blood/tissue) without bowel problems. Again, if I were in your shoes, I would take 1 in the morning and 1 before bed. (The unique ability of liposomes to enter cells through membranes may offer you a life saving technology, that ordinary vitamin C apparently does not provide in your case.)

So the question is: Why isn't that much vitamin C working? (It may be doing something, but it doesn't seem to be reversing your CVD.) Is it being "used up" as Dr. Levy seems to suspect, or is it not being absorbed, or is it not entering cells (as in Diabetes Type II) or is there some property of your coronary arteries (and also your retinal arteries) that prevents ascorbate from restoring your arteries to the healthy condition of your youth?

Lypo-C addresses both the not being absorbed and not entering cells concerns.

This has me thinking of Levy's book STOP AMERICA'S #1 KILLER, and his discussion of "unstable plaques" and how atherosclerosis develops almost like a "tumor" over time. His discussion was new to me when I first read it, and it made me wonder just how Pauling's vitamin C and lysine therapy could work so quickly in so many people with advanced CVD and intractable pain.

I still haven't been able to reconcile all the knowledge in Levy's book with my experience the past 15 years or so, but I suspect your arteries are more like the "advanced" CVD that Dr. Levy describes. They have been developing a long time and are almost like a callous or tumor growth as the body struggles to stabilize what would otherwise be a weak and thus leaky artery. In this case, ascorbate in the blood may reach the outer wall of the artery, which has now grown thick, and prevent more growth/plaque, but it may not be able to penetrate the inner cells of the arterial wall.

The hope is that like a callous on the skin shrinks, with your comprehensive nutritional program and a proper (low sugar/no trans fat) diet, your arteries will slowly return to a more normal and healthy condition. It may take some time.

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Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:25 am
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Post Re: VC....... not exacty the results I was looking for!!!
You asked for a study

http://content.onlinejacc.org/cgi/content/full/42/2/253#FIG1

http://content.onlinejacc.org/cgi/content/short/41/10/1848-a


Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:39 am
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