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 Question About Proline/Kenton Research (unpublished) 
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Post Question About Proline/Kenton Research (unpublished)
Quote:
QUESTION...Hello Owen..I just discovered your website. I want to add Proline to my newly started therapy but when I look for Proline...all I see is L-Proline. [But Dr Matthias Rath did not call it L-Proline and Wikipedia does not call it that either] How can I be sure I am getting exactly what Rath and Pauling specified?


All the aminos we can process/digest are the left-hand L variety, so to my knowledge (assuming there is an L-proline, maybe it isn't a sterioisomer) that is what you would be getting in any product. And proline isn't essential because our bodies can make it (unlike lysine which we have to get in the diet.) If I am wrong, the forum will correct me.

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Sat May 07, 2011 1:43 pm
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Post Re: Question About Proline/Kenton Research (unpublished)
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SOMETHING THAT WORRIED ME ....somewhere on your website I found the first trial of Pauling therapy for 200 men...which showed that the non-placebo group receiving the therapy showed no improvement and had, instead, 2 or 3% progression of blockage.
DID THIS WORRY YOU?

Thanks again, Doug



I believe that you read it wrong - but Kenton never published. He filed patents, etc. (He may have confused apo(A) with apo(a) - and that may be why he didn't publish)

Basically atherosclerosis progressed as expected in the placebo group.

But was practically halted - stopped - in the vitamin C/vitamin E and lysine groups.

I mention in our book and Kenton's letter is



http://www.internetwks.com/pauling/stories.html Scroll down to "UK Study"


Quote:
UK STUDY
3-year clinical trial, 200+ males
6000 mg Vitamin C, 6000 mg Lysine, 800 IU Vitamin E
'First-Ever' Soon to be Published...
Plaque growth 800-1500 percent higher in placebo group

Subject: Re: Trial on Lp(a) - using high doses.

Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 17:53:32 -0000

Dear Owen,

>From 1997 to year 2000 ( 2-3 year study) we conducted a trial using 6g/day magnesium-ascorbate, 6g Lysine and 800 iu Vitamin E and in addition flavonoids. The formulation is very similar to your suggestion and Linus Paulings.

We now have a lot of data on 200+ male individuals including Lp(a) but also on atherosclerotic, plaque size progression, plod pressure, lipid profiles (cholesterol, triglyserides).

You may be interested in viewing some of this data (yet unpublished) soon to be published.

One main important observation was that the plaque growth progression was nearly halted to about 2-3% per year in comparison with natural progression of 15-30%.

We did not find a significant reduction in Lp(a) as such but a clear reduction in Apob.

There were also other benefits such as the hair started to re-grow in several individuals.

The frequency of common colds were also reduced.

Best regards
Dr. K. Kenton
London
United Kingdom


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Sat May 07, 2011 1:48 pm
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Post Re: Question About Proline/Kenton Research (unpublished)
Quote:
That is highly possible...have been feeling crummy and not clear lately.

Please look below...for my central question. Thanks for writing.


Quote:
Basically atherosclerosis progressed as expected in the placebo group.

But was practically halted - stopped - in the vitamin C/vitamin E and
lysine groups.

=========================
Here is where I may have misunderstood.

Shouldn't atherosclerosis have been REVERSED in the
vitamin C/vitamin E and lysine groups (instead of almost stopped) if
Dr Paulings therapy works as expected??


Thanks again, Owen.

great question and insight - will try to sort out at our forum.


From Bush's Cardioretinometry, we know there are "soft" atheromas and hard calcified plaques
(and variations on the very "old" plaques). It may require a long time for reversal of old calcified plaques. (But reversals are documented by eye doctors such as Sydney Bush in the UK - even of hard calcified plaques, but this process may take years. The fact that progression stopped is a victory of sorts, and he may have been hesitant to report reversal because medical dogma is that reversals are impossible.

So the real question is, if atherosclerosis isn't reversing in 10 days, why do seriously ill people who adopt Pauling's vitamin C/lysine therapy report miraculous relief after only 10 days? And why do many start painting their homes after 30 days (when they could hardly walk across the room before the therapy?)

Our is not to reason why, ours is but to...

The early Willis research showed that in about 1/3 of the subjects on 1500 mg vitamin C daily, their atheroclerotic plaques reversed (grew smaller) using an X-ray technique. This 1/3 during the course of a rather short study. (Note: we recently noticed the references to the old Willis studies recently made it into Pubmed/Medline!) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1825016/pdf/canmedaj00699-0041.pdf

If Dr. Kenton had published we'd have more to go on.

p.s. Thinking about the Willis guinea pig studies (Reversibility), these were all new and thus soft atheromas induced in these animals.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1823880/pdf/canmedaj00761-0033.pdf

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Sat May 07, 2011 1:58 pm
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Post Re: Question About Proline/Kenton Research (unpublished)
Owen you said it all EXCEPT the B3 if you would recall Dr. Pauling always mentioned it's benefits when discussing the THERAPY and he recomended it every time he talked on the subject of heart disease. It's noted here, "that it (V-C&L-Lysine) didn't lower the LP(a)," We have mentioned this many times before as to why there maybe a spike when starting on the therapy and will only see a reduction when healing is being accomplished. In the mean time Niacin will convince the body that the LP(a) is not needed. I agree, new plaque = Fast results, Old plaque is like the DMV take a number and wait, It'll get done but will take time.
My hats off to COBRAMAN he has presented on this subject many times in this forum as while as someone you know better then anyone ( see link below)


http://www.prweb.com/releases/2005/4/prweb232701.htm

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Sat May 07, 2011 7:36 pm
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Post Re: Question About Proline/Kenton Research (unpublished)
Good point about Niacin!

more from Doug..


Quote:
Hello Owen,

I expected to find a lot of evidence in the forum that Dr Linus Pauling's therapy works to reverse heart disease as he said it would.

However, I have been poring over the forum and am not finding it.


Can you please direct me to the part of the forum that talks about the successes of The Pauling Therapy?


Thank you very much,

Doug


Good question - unfortunately the forum is pruned after a time, and we tend to focus on cases where it doesn't seem to be working. If you are looking for testimonials, start here:

http://www.practicingmedicinewithoutalicense.com/#TESTIMONY

There are links at the bottom to several more pages. And I can provide even more links if interested.

I also devoted a Chapter in my book to the longest running testimonials at that time, especially Carol Smith's off-again (heart problems) on again (seemingly cured) off-again (heart problems) on-again (cured) now about 15-year case.

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Tue May 10, 2011 8:37 am
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Post Re: Question About Proline/Kenton Research (unpublished)
Quote:
Thanks, Owen.

I wasn't looking for testimonials but any evidence from studies that support what Dr. Pauling contended.
(NOTE: I am following Pauling therapy using Tower Labs Heart Tech)

For example ==> I find doctors on the internet saying heart disease is not from a vit C deficiency but from a deficiency of B vitamins.

Others like Dr Dean Ornish say it is all about cholesterol and only allows people in his program to eat 5mg of cholesterol per day (the amount in one cup of nonfat milk)

As a scientist (chemical and nuclear engineering) and long familiar with the prominence of Dr Pauling before he started vit C research, I was hoping to at least satisfy my own mind of what the core truth is (or if it is a combination of truths).

Sincerely, Doug

P.S. Do you have any rough idea of what percentage of people that follow The Pauling therapy get reversal of their blockages?


Yes it is confusing. The lack of studies is what we have been "screaming" about for almost 10 years. As Dr. Hickey points cardiologists could conduct small low-cost studies in their practice, but so far none have been published, or at least
no one (other than Kenton) has admitted even trying to run such a study. (We also know that such studies would never make it through "peer review" in the current medical journals.)

Too bad Kenton never published those results he emailed to me.

The testimonials are all we have - but they are compelling. Start with the "cardiologist" who is now a regular contributing member of our forum - johnwen. The issue is whether they are true, or made up. But you can speak to many as many have agreed to use their real names, feeling they have participated in something "important."

And at least in the beginning, we only "saw" advanced patients after their medical doctors told them there was no hope and suggested they look for alternatives (usually thinking they would find an EDTA chelation doctor.) These are the people (severe pain) who reported incredible relief after 10 days,
as most experienced what Pauling himself reported during his lecture, the first three cases of adding lysine to vitamin C.

My gut feeling is over 90% succeed. We have been "investigating" why the other 5-10% seem to fail, and there are issues of sugar diabetes (high blood sugar competes and blocks vitamin C in the blood), toxic dental work (can
use up what little vitamin C stores exist), stopping the high dose vitamin C/lysine after feeling better (thinking they were cured), etc.

The "sicker" someone is, the harder it is to walk across the room, the more a person can evaluate the benefits.

As far as the other "theories" you mention, the Pauling/Rath (and now Levy) unified theories are just that - theories which should be tested by experiment.

We at this forum can and often do poke holes in the other theories out there, especially the "lipids cause heart disease' theory.

Here is a good introduction to
what that theory fails to explain the data/facts.

:
http://www.ourhealthcoop.com/pdf/MikeCi ... theory.pdf

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Thu May 12, 2011 11:50 am
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Post Re: Question About Proline/Kenton Research (unpublished)
Quote:
Quote:
This is what we have been "screaming" about for almost 10 years.
============================

Owen, I can see why you have been "screaming". I have the same desire to find out
the core truth (or truths).


I think everyone would agree that Dr Pauling was a brilliant guy - and his unified theory of coronary artery blockage does make sense. However, it does not explain everything as it should if the theory is exactly correct.

I have listed a couple of things that are not explained. Please see if you agree. I am very interested in your thoughts.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. if Dr Pauling's theory is rigorously correct, then 99% of people of all ages should have
coronary artery blockage of some degree (assuming that the other 1% takes adequate vit C).
As an example => when I was age 45, my arteries were checked via angiogram and found to
be totally clear and, yet, I was only taking about 250-500mg C per day. This amount
of C should have been woefully inadequate.


2. if Dr Pauling's theory is correct, then Dr Dean Ornish should not have success with his reversal program (which is based on the lipid hypothesis). But apparently he does have success and there are testimonials from those in his program.


Also, correct me if I am wrong, but what Mike Ciell writes below seems to be just a restatement of Dr Pauling's theory (rather than covering anything new).
.




Quote:
And Kenton never published those results he emailed to me.
=========================

I am really curious about that. I would like to know what has stopped him. Hmmm....is it possible he is "on the take"? That someone has paid him to kill it (by not publishing it)?

Quote:
My gut feeling is over 90% succeed. We have been trying to reason why the other 5-10% seem to fail, and there are issues of sugar diabetes (high blood sugar competes and blocks vitamin C in the blood), toxic dental work (can use up what little vitamin C stores exist), stopping the high dose vitamin C/lysine after feeling better (thinking they were cured), etc.


As far as the other "theories" you mention, the Pauling/Rath (and now Levy) unified theories are just that - theories which should be tested by experiment.

=====================

You say, "and now Levy"....did he come up with something new that wasn't covered by Dr Pauling?


You should read Levy's book - STOP AMERICA'S #1 KILLER - because it contains a cardiologist's view of the role of vitamin C w/r to CVD risk factors. Dr. Levy is a cardiologist who has become one of the leading vitamin C experts. Dr. Levy analyzed all known CVD risk factors - and found he could logically reduce them all to one factor - low vitamin C. (Either a general vitamin C deficiency, or many times, a local/focul vitamin C deficiency at the site of the lesion.)

Dr. Levy just published a new article entitled "The Unified Theory of CardioVascular Disease" in the latest TOWNSEND LETTER FOR DOCTORS AND PATIENTS. It is from a different perspective (from a cardiologist) than the Pauling/Rath unified theory - although it does place the entire blame of the CVD epidemic on low vitamin C.

re:

Quote:
1. if Dr Pauling's theory is rigorously correct, then 99% of people of all ages should have coronary artery blockage of some degree (assuming that the other 1% takes adequate vit C).

As an example => when I was age 45, my arteries were checked via angiogram and found to be totally clear and, yet, I was only taking about 250-500mg C per day. This amount of C should have been woefully inadequate.


The first question is why doesn't everyone have CVD with the population's generally low vitamin C intakes? Especially, yourself. I think we learned from the Korean war that most US young people DO suffer some sub clinical CVD, and don't know it. And after Pauling's book was published in the 1970s, vitamin C consumption increased about 300% (and CVD mortality declined by at least 40%). Source: Linus Pauling Institute.

But nothing in the theory predicts that only 250-500 mg daily wouldn't protect some in the population from sub clinical scurvy, especially if they limit sugar and trans fat intake.

I am happy to hear about your angiogram, and while still early in life, that tells me that 500 mg may be "adequate" with your genetics and your diet. (A diet which must be good! probably low sugar, low transfats. Congratulations)


Quote:
2. if Dr Pauling's theory is correct, then Dr Dean Ornish should not have success with his reversal program (which is based on the lipid hypothesis). But apparently he does have success and there are testimonials from those in his program.


This question assumes that the Ornish program doesn't provide adequate vitamin C.

So your second question is related to why the Korean and Chinese soldiers did not have evidence of CVD (while the American soldiers did.). The only explanation I can think of is that diet is very important, and the American sugar laden, high transfat, high polyunsaturated fat diet rapidly causes sub clinical scurvy, perhaps because it depletes scarce vitamin C resources.

I believe the reason Ornish program "works" is because it is also low transfat. We have discussed the Intuit eskimos which eat pure blubber and have been found to be free of cardiovascular disease, even though their vitamin C intake is obviously very limited. A paleolithic diet apparently allows much smaller amounts of vitamin C to be effective, (which probably explains your case), and perhaps the Ornish success. (I am not aware of patients who had trouble walking across the room with chest pain, who could suddenly paint their homes after 30 days on the Ornish plan, are you?)

Also, we as a species have adapted - the forum has discussed research showing how many more vitamin C uptake receptors our cells have evolved compare to other species.

So one obvious experiment presents itself.

One study group on the low/no fat Ornish diet - limited to the RDA of vitamin C - 60 mg.

Versus a group on the Atkins diet (high fat/low carb) with at least 10,000 mg of vitamin C daily.

We just need an agreeable objective measure. Cardioretinometry?


Quote:
Also, correct me if I am wrong, but what Mike Ciell writes below seems to be just a restatement of Dr Pauling's theory (rather than covering anything new).


Mike has updated the article and maybe made one of his primary points more obscure? It is that any plumber would have a problem the "lipid theory", e.g,. that a "sludge in the plumbing" (i.e. lipids) should settle in slow moving, narrow blood vessels. Instead, plaques occur in the high pressure, very wide arteries. But yes, he agrees with Pauling.

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Mon May 16, 2011 4:15 pm
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Post Re: Question About Proline/Kenton Research (unpublished)
Sorry, I can't let this go. It is an excellent example of nonsense that proliferates into crazy thinking.
"the Intuit eskimos which eat pure blubber and have been found to be free of cardiovascular disease, even though their vitamin C intake is obviously very limited."
Inuit, not Intuit.
"Obviously"???
The Inuit also eat a lot of seal and walrus, as it is available fresh year round. And gather all sorts of growing stuff in season, seaweeds, birds & eggs, fish etc. Whale skin (muktuk) is said to be high in vitamin C. Most of this stuff is eaten fresh or frozen, rarely cooked, and like aboriginal folk everywhere, the internal organs are eaten first and preferentially.
In my reading, I understand that it was precisely the fact that seal meat contains very large amounts of vitamin C that led to much of the modern understanding of scurvy and vitamin C. This on the Antarctic expeditions, where sled dogs were fed dried meat, but became weak and sick; but recovered immediately when they got to where fresh seal was available. This led to analysis to figure out why, and it turned out that fresh seal is loaded with vitamin C.

"A paleolithic diet apparently allows much smaller amounts of vitamin C to be effective,"
"Paleolithic diet" is an academic construct, which mostly makes no sense, like many academic constructs, including the so called "Mediterranean diet". The Inuit diet IS a paleolithic diet, and in common with others, consists of what is available and is mostly raw. One such diet is used in Pauling's analysis of how much vitamin C we might have gotten eating a lot of fresh leaves etc. Lots of vitamin C there too. None of this to be confused with Euro-paleo people often on the edge of starvation.

FRM


Mon May 16, 2011 10:29 pm
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Post Re: Question About Proline/Kenton Research (unpublished)
Thank you gofanu. I appreciate the clarification and corrections. (The "paleo diet" I was referring to is what Pauling mentions in his book - which I interpret simply as low/no sugar, no transfat. i.e., No manufactured foods.) Good point about the fresh seal meat, versus dried meat. But the argument, (if I remember), is between the lipid (Ornish) hypothesis and the Vitamin C Unified Theory. I brought up the Eskimo diet because if the lipid hypothesis had merit, wouldn't all that fat damage their arteries causing CVD? Yet, CVD does not exist on their natural diet. Similar to the aborigines in Australia. The root of all evil, apparently, is the modern western diet. (And as you point out, these natives must and do get sufficient vitamin C.)

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Tue May 17, 2011 7:36 am
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Post Re: Question About Proline/Kenton Research (unpublished)
Quote:
when I was age 45, my arteries were checked via angiogram and found to
be totally clear and,

How did you get a doctor to agree to doing a Cardiac catheterizationat age 45? Did you have chest pain, high cholesterol, High blood pressure, symptoms?
Reason I'm curious is I requested a Cardiac catheterization and was refused with out symptoms.


Tue May 17, 2011 1:07 pm
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Post Re: Question About Proline/Kenton Research (unpublished)
ofonorow wrote:
Thank you gofanu. I appreciate the clarification and corrections. (The "paleo diet" I was referring to is what Pauling mentions in his book - which I interpret simply as low/no sugar, no transfat. i.e., No manufactured foods.) Good point about the fresh seal meat, versus dried meat. But the argument, (if I remember), is between the lipid (Ornish) hypothesis and the Vitamin C Unified Theory. I brought up the Eskimo diet because if the lipid hypothesis had merit, wouldn't all that fat damage their arteries causing CVD? Yet, CVD does not exist on their natural diet. Similar to the aborigines in Australia. The root of all evil, apparently, is the modern western diet. (And as you point out, these natives must and do get sufficient vitamin C.)

The nomadic tribes of Africa, despite a diet that consisted mainly of cream and fatty meat, showed no signs of cvd on post mortem studies.


Tue May 17, 2011 5:49 pm
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Post Re: Question About Proline/Kenton Research (unpublished)
Quote:
How did you get a doctor to agree to doing a Cardiac catheterizationat age 45? Did you have chest pain, high cholesterol, High blood pressure, symptoms?
Reason I'm curious is I requested a Cardiac catheterization and was refused with out symptoms.


At onset of atrial fibrillation episodes, the docs started doing a bunch of tests, one of which was angiogram. After the angiogram, they told me "your arteries are so clear you could climb Mt Everest" (their exact words).


Wed May 18, 2011 11:29 am
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Post Re: Question About Proline/Kenton Research (unpublished)
another email ..

Quote:
what are "GLUT" and other vitamin C uptake receptors?


See whether the following link helps to answer that question:

http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8457&p=22714&hilit=SVCT#p22714

There are at least two means that the various forms of vitamin C in the blood can enter cells through the outer membrane - this topic covers them. From memory GLUT is an insulin transporter through the cell membrane, and vitamin C shares this transporter with glucose. (Somewhat confusing as perhaps only the DHA version uses this transport?)

The Sodium Dependent SVCT is another receptor that allows vitamin C attached to sodium to enter cells.

Apparently Vitamin C can enter a third way - via liposomes, where these lipid nano particles merge with cell membranes, releasing their contents into the cell.


Quote:
Has Levy added something to Pauling's theory?


SAME RESULT - DIFFERENT PATH - BOOK IS MUST READ AND CONTAINS ANALYSIS OF KNOWN CDC RISK FACTORS. LEVY ALSO ANSWERS INTERESTING QUESTIONS SUCH AS WHY PLAQUE ONLY FORMS IN THE CORONARY ARTERIES ON THE SURFACE OF THE HEART - BUT NOT THE CORONARY ARTERIES WITHIN THE HEART. HE ALSO PROVIDES UNDERSTANDING OF UNSTABLE ANGINA AND THE RISK FROM CLOTS DUE TO WEAK CAPILLARIES DEVELOPING IN INVOLVED PLAQUES NEAR THE HEART.

Quote:
But, according to the Pauling theory....even kids w/o adequate vit C should have CVD

NOT SURE I FOLLOW LOGIC. WHY? THE THEORY IS THAT AS ARTERIES WEAKEN, THEY "CRACK", AND LESIONS FORM THAT ATTRACT PLAQUE. AUTOPSIES SHOWED THAT YOUNG SOLDIERS DURING KOREAN WAR - US SOLDIERS - DID HAVE ATHEROSCLEROSIS. U.S. KIDS FROM 18-? THE THEORY IS THAT Lp(A) IS SUBSTITUTING FOR LOW C, IS A QUIET HEALING PROCESS, SO IT IS DIFFICULT TO KNOW WHETHER OR NOT CHILDREN HAVE PLAQUES - BUT YOUNG ARTERIES ARE APPARENTLY MORE RESILIENT. IF THERE WAS A GOOD TEST WE'D KNOW A LOT MORE. CARDIORETINOMETRY?

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Wed May 18, 2011 3:13 pm
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