Strange hypoglycemic response (high Lp(a) to Cardio-C

[ofonorow]

Dear Dr. Owen

1. I am having what appears to be hypoglycemic response to 1 scoop of cardio 2,500 mg. Took 2 scoops(5,000 mg) one day and had two "hypoglycemics" that day. I actually lose my vision and it looks like fireworks in my head with my eyes closed and with eyes open. Of course, I'm a little concerned that I'm not having a small, bleeding out mini strokes. I read somewhere that vit c is similar to the glucose molecule and with rapid infusion it can cause an insuline/glucose lowering response. I have insulin'glucose concerns in past. But fasting glucose is healthy a 90. Vision clears back in about 30 to 60 minutes.

2. Next problem is hard nodules like acne or hives on check and nose. My skin is always clear and normal.

3. If the lysine/proline blocks the uptake of Lp(a) to plug the lesions caused by scurvy lack of vit c=2C then with the product blocking the uptake of Lp(a), could there be any bleed out or hemorraging if the 2 major ingre dients Vit C and proline/lysine are not working 100% simultaneously where the Vit C has actually healed the lesions at the same time as the blocking of LP(a)? Have you any research on this. Perhaps for those of us with high Lp(a) over 100 it would be better to take just the vit c to heal first say for 30-60 days and then the cardio product with the amino acids??? Perhaps those with high LpA taking together poses risks.

HELP!

Best regards
Charles


Have not been able to work up past the 1 scoop or 2500.

Obviously #1 indicates that something unusual is going on.

1.
rapidly infused IV/C is known to create a hypoglycemic condition that can be rectified by taking a few sweets. (I might recommend pure glucose tablets that one can get here in USA at a drug store.)

If you are reacting the way of an IV - perhaps slow down, as you must be rapidly absorbing the C! (Which probably indicates that you need it!)

Why vision would be affected indicates some issue with the eye as it is flooded with insulin and/or ascorbate.

2.
As far as the "nodules" - have you just begun high vitamin C? In the beginning, as the immune system "wakes up", people can experience various temporary reactions (e.g. cold sores) that Pauling attributed
to the body detoxing itself and ridding itself of the toxins, some up through the skin. They should be temporary.

3. So you have Lp(a) over 100?? mg/dl ?? (or nmol/l) ??

We don't know, no one bothers to study this. I suppose in theory, under the Pauling/Rath theory, the Lp(a) is acting in place of the missing vitamin C/collagen, creating the "plaster casts" atheroma, and that high dose lysine/proline could be washing away your plaques before you can produce enough collagen to compensate with stronger arteries. Probably a stretch. This would be unusual, but I
do not have a memory of many people with Lp(a)'s as high as yours.

So yes, without a better understanding, I might cut back the lysine/proline, especially the proline (e.g. you might consider the Tower CardioAde which is only vitamin C/lysine) product. And try working your way forward, starting with with vitamin C, perhaps Lypo-C.

A plan might be:

1. Ordinary vitamin C only as half ascorbic acid/half sodium ascorbate. If your tolerance is still low (only 5000 mg daily) then I would add 1 or 2 packets of LivonLabs Lypo-C. Perhaps for a month.

2. I would introduce lysine with CardioAde (Tower Labs) replacing someof the ascorbic acid in #1. and see if you experience the same vision symptoms, say for 1 to 3 months. (This also introduces the variable of the herb stevia)

3. After 2 to 4 months, if you are tolerating above, then you can try adding proline - Cardio-C, and proceed.

[ofonorow]

Dr. Owen,

Thanks for your reply. In answer to your questions below. I think or feel like the vision has to do with the insulin/glucose response which I believe may have been caused by too much Vit C at once any way for me.

Yes my Lp(a) is 100+ mg/dl. This is why I really wanted to give the Pauling protocol a chance since there isn't much more a person can do (niacin). I didn't realize that there isn't a high rate of others with this high of Lp(a). I believe this is genetic because neither of my parents consumed vit c in food/supplement or probably their parents. Of course, I had very little growing up which contributed to a chronic life problem with possibly the result is very high Lp(a). So this is why I thought correcting the plumbing structural weakness was the first order. I like your program you set out and will do this. Where can I get a 50/50 mixture of ascorbic acid and sodium ascorbate???Perhaps this is a common over the counter.

DO YOU THINK that bioflavonoids are necessary and would be helpful with the vit c?

As far as the nodules on face, yes I have just started the Cardio about 1 week of it. I understand what you say about the immune waking up because I also had the cold sore lesions popping up.

Thanks again

We (and others) can provide both sodium ascorbate and ascorbic acid powder - which I now mix and take myself 50/50.

I would not be concerned with bioflavonoids.

We are VERY much interested in your case, so if you can make copies of your medical records, particularly the cholesterol tests with the high Lp(a) - we would appreciate redacted copies. (If the lab is Quest, do you mind having another lab run the Lp(a) test for verification? Thank you.)

I would expect that your Lp(a) will drop dramatically, over time, as you follow the program, especially as you are able to add lysine and proline to the regimen. And we'd like to have the evidence. (In one case, it required 18 months, but the doctor forgot the year checkup.)

p.s. (to forum) I feel insulin response is a hole in my knowledge about high vitamin C. I wonder about the insulin response. I wonder if raising insulin is "normal" with high vitamin C intake in all people, or only in some people? Can some metabolisms be "fooled" just as some blood sugar tests are fooled?

[majkinetor]

- Ascorbate is known to be required for correct insulin secretion in guinea pigs. Hyperinsulinemia is probably the problem. That would lead to hypoglicemia if there is no insulin resistance in the majority of the body and that would influence the brain. Eye might not be the problem but how the signal is translated in the brain. Maybe some other supplements might help, like chromium.
- Bioflavonoids might help the absorption or might prevent it, depending on the content. Using limun or kiwi with C sounds like a good idea, from time to time.

[ofonorow]

Dear Owen,

Over the years I have had various labs do the Lp(a) and also Quest. I will get a new lab done and mail these to you. I am traveling for a few weeks and will do upon my return. I am interested in the 50/50 (ascorbic acid/sodium ascorbate) mixture. Do you think this will be better than the Lypo C from LivOn?

Thanks

To cover all bases, I now personally take all three daily.

Lypo has several advantages - When you say you can only tolerate 2 scoops - is that because of diarrhea, or the eye/vision problem? If diarrhea, the Lypo-C can get more vitamin C in the blood stream without gastric reactions. Lypo can be used to emulate an IV, meaning achieve high blood serum levels, according to livonlabs.com.

[ofonorow]

Dr. Bush responds:

The case of the 'explosion' is interesting.

It suggests platelet aggregation passing through the retina and is very alarming as it could portend stroke. The appearance is of white dots flying across the field of vision.

I would myself, take 12,000 iu natural vitamin E with sat fat meal, no poyunsaturates at all - if he has been having these he will be in Vit E deficiency !!!

Reduce vit C amount but increase frequency to maybe 0.5 gm every three hours with a couple of grams of Lysine.

Hypoglycaemia would account for loss of vision if he lost consciousness!" Otherwise, unless it is very low blood pressure his retinal circulation is impaired, probably by the platelet aggregation. If he doesn't ever faint or have a diabetic coma forget it.

Very dangerous situation!!!

[Johnwen]

Finally got a chance to sit down.
After reading these posts from this person and Dr. Bush my drug alert light came on. Just the other day I was reading a report of a patient who had almost Identical symptoms while taking statins and a fenofibric acid drug. Without knowing this persons BP during these episodes it's kind of hard to put a finger on an exact cause but it would be interesting to find out what kind of perscribed drugs he's taking also.
This could also explain the High LP(a).
As far as the lumps it's probably a herpes virus which really don't like lysine and V-C and is trying to escape or cluster for protection. I would anticipate an eruption sometime in the near future if he stays on the same dosage. (Ie: Cold Sore Type eruption) He may also notice some warts popping up here and there which is also part of the body trying to get rid of the toxins from itself.
I agree with Dr. Bush his sitituation is pretty dangerous.

[ofonorow]

Dear Dr. Fororow:

I'm not on any prescribed medicines. Never taken any statins and/or fenofibric acid together as a prescribed drug. Everything I take into the body is food and mostly food type vitamins/minerals. But Dr. Johnwen is probably correct about the fenofibric reaction except I believe this is from the combination of vitamin C with lysine/proline acting also as a fenofibric especially for us that have very high LP(a) for a long time. It has to do with something like the lysine and proline acting faster in the body then what the mending of vessels (that have long term damage) vit c can keep up with.

Just my thoughts and feelings.

My BP and heart rate are normal during these episodes. I can think clearly - there is no pain, but just like a fireworks show in the brain and perhaps optic nerve and visions leaves and all I see are the fireworks. But, with 1 a day or 2, I'm exhausted with the chemical dumps. Also, after coming off the vit c completely, increasing eating every 3 hrs instead of 4-5 hrs, they are controlled. Vit c acting like glucose and a chelator and a fenofibric at the same time perhaps?

Thank you Dr. Johnwen and Owen F.