Ascorbyl Palmitate/C for Lp(a) but concerned about issues

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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Ascorbyl Palmitate/C for Lp(a) but concerned about issues

Post Number:#1  Post by ofonorow » Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:20 am

I would like to know if ascorbic acid will be harmful to my teeth if I use the Cardio-C.

Also, other doctors recommend a C with ascorbyl palmitate. Why doesn\'t yours have the combo?

How much Cardio-C do you recommend for people with high Lp(a)?

Will the high amts of C cause too much iron absorption?

Any other negative effects of too much C such as other vitamin imbalances?


Hello,

Thank you for contacting us. You seem to have done your homework.

Re Ascorbic Acid and Teeth: I saw Dr. Cathcart's caution, and if you have any concerns (I do not) use a straw. We have had many discussions at our forum, vitamincfoundation.org/forum on the pros and cons of Aa vs. teeth. (Some dentist discovered and wrote in the 1950s that people who take at least 6000 mg of vitamin C daily do not have dental carries, etc.)

Re: Also, other doctors recommend a C with ascorbyl palmitate. Why doesn\'t yours have the combo?: Interesting, who recommends ascorbyl palmitate, and for what?? Can you provde a reference? A. Palmitate is a fat soluble form of ascorbate, and I thought mostly for skincare products. I have not heard of many (any) uses internally and we would be curious.

Re: High Lp(a): I wish we knew, I would probably recommend Tower Heart Technology over Cardio-C if the problem is high Lp(a) based on a small, self administered study (really voluntary feedback) of people providing before/after lab reports. We have not tried to run the same experiment for Cardio-C (it may work the same, there is evidence that it would, but there may be something else in HT, perhaps the high vitamin A, which is a factor in the dramatic lowering of Lp(a) we observed between the before/after lab reorts.) If you decide to go the Cardio-C route, (or HT) I would use Pauling's minimum therapeutic recommendation - 6000 mg (or 2 jars monthly.) Please let us know what happens to your Lp(a), no matter what product you decide on. Lp(a) may drop 30% in six months. One report from an MD who teaches med school said that it then dropped to zero in 18 months.

Vitamin C regulates minerals and metals, and unless you have a specific issue (and according to our experts, even if you have iron overload) you have nothing to worry about. However, if it eases your mind, take vitamin C away from meals, and the issue of aiding iron absorption (which I think is a good thing) can be avoided.

We try to track down all the negative issues about vitamin C that abound on the internet and in my opinion, all bad things increase, (the chance for poor health) the less vitamin C one consumes. The more vitamin C you take, the healthier you will be.
Owen R. Fonorow
HeartCURE.Info
American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year

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Re: Want to use vitamin C for Lp(a) but concerned about issues

Post Number:#2  Post by ofonorow » Wed Jan 13, 2010 6:55 am

Dr. Mr. Fonorow,

Thanks for your prompt reply. I had my Lp(a) tested some 6 years ago (it was about 75 mg)- I did some c therapy in the meantime. I used a product called Matrik (eantiaging.com) and was advised (I do not say treat because I only consulted via internet) by Michael Lam, M.D. If you find the product I mentioned you'll see they use the Aa as well as a few other forms of C, including the ascorb. palmitate. If you go to Dr. Lam's website and search under Lp(a) he explains his reasoning for using the asc palm. I never returned to have my Lp(a) rechecked.

Coincidentally, having nothing to do with treating my Lp(a), I also began bioidentical estrogen (patch) and progesterone (transdermal) since my high reading back in '04. I actually read last evening that estrogen can lower Lp(a) as much as half- but don't know if the experts agree on that- so I would be curious to know if my hormone
therapy has benefited my Lp(a) any. Meanwhile, I'm back to wondering if the c therapy such as either of the 2 products you mention, would be valuable to help reduce it (whatever level it is today!) I'm not sure 6 years later how drs are handling the high Lp(a).

If I decide to go with Aa as a form I will look into the other product you mentioned besides the Cardio-C. Either one, is it ok to take on an empty stomach (if I want to avoid iron overload, since I am menopausal)?

Thank you,

K. D.

Interesting. I will check out that Drs web site and I am hugely in favor of bioidentical hormone replacement, especially progesterone.

75 Lp(a) would be very high - if accurate and mg/dl. Newer tests are nmol/l and the number 75 would be normal in that case. I believe you can order a VAP test from Atherotech.com. They send it, you have the blood drawn, perhaps at the local hospital, and they provide you with a FEDEX package to return it. I have learned to trust Atherotech Lp(a) measurments over some other commercial providers, and the VAP test breaks Lp(a) down into sub categories - smaller particles are more atherogenic than large particles. (The problem with some major national labs is that the FDA allows these companies to "compute" rather than actually measure Lp(a), probably because there are
no drugs known that lower Lp(a). Sad but true.)


Checking your links. Seems to be a very excellent article, and accurate

http://www.eantiaging.com/library/bookc ... &booksel=1

up to a point. However it contains this paragraph,

Vitamin C also comes in a fat-soluble form called ascorbyl palmitate. Once absorbed, ascorbyl palmitate has been shown in Dr. Pauling's studies to fortify the micro-capillary wall of blood vessels that often deteriorate due to the aging process. His studies showed that when taken in conjunction with the amino acids L-lysine and L-proline, vitamin C was associated with a substantial reduction in atherosclerosis.


Which seems to imply the LINUS PAULING himself studied the fat soluble form of vitamin C, and I can tell you that at least in all his writings and books that I have access to, he does mention it but never wrote that HE had studied A.P. or specifically recommended it, but I will try to double check, starting at the Linus Pauling Institute.

Owen R. Fonorow
HeartCURE.Info
American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year

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Re: Ascorbyl Palmitate/C for Lp(a) but concerned about issues

Post Number:#3  Post by ofonorow » Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:02 am

Found this at LPI

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/ss01/bioavailability.html

Specifically, "However, the protective effects of ascorbyl palmitate on cell membranes have only been demonstrated in the test tube." from


Ascorbyl palmitate: Ascorbyl palmitate is a fat-soluble antioxidant sometimes used to increase the shelf life of vegetable oils and potato chips. It is an amphipathic molecule, meaning one end is water-soluble and the other end is fat-soluble. This dual solubility allows it to be incorporated into cell membranes. When incorporated into the cell membranes of human red blood cells, ascorbyl palmitate has been found to protect them from oxidative damage and to protect vitamin E (a fat-soluble antioxidant) from oxidation by free radicals. However, the protective effects of ascorbyl palmitate on cell membranes have only been demonstrated in the test tube. Taking ascorbyl palmitate orally probably doesn.t result in any significant incorporation into cell membranes because most of it appears to be hydrolyzed (broken apart into palmitate and ascorbic acid) in the human digestive tract before it is absorbed. The ascorbic acid released by the hydrolysis of ascorbyl palmitate appears to be as bioavailable as ascorbic acid alone. The presence of ascorbyl palmitate in oral supplements contributes to the ascorbic acid content of the supplement and probably helps protect lipid-soluble antioxidants during storage. The role of vitamin C in promoting collagen synthesis and its antioxidant properties have generated interest in its use on the skin. Ascorbyl palmitate is frequently used in topical preparations because it is more stable than some aqueous (water-soluble) forms of vitamin C.


and at

http://www.drlam.com/articles/1999-No5-NewMarkersofCardiovasularDisease.asp

I found this paragraph,


It is worth noting that Vitamin C, being water-soluble, is cleared through the body very quickly, giving it a very short half-life. To maintain continuous optimum levels of Vitamin C in the body, ascorbate should be taken in divided dosages throughout the day. To overcome this problem, a fat-soluble form of Vitamin C, ascorbyl palmitate, has been developed. It is readily absorbed from the gastrointestinal track and finds its way to the micro-capillaries where it stays to exerts its health enhancing properties mentioned above.


So the question is, where are the references that support this statement? If LPI is correct, the work this claim relies on was done in test tubes, not even verified in lab animals? If you can find ANY references at either of the two web sites you mentioned, I would appreciate it.

What they say of course may be true, but I do not think it is based on anything real that I am aware of. As LPI points out, the "vitamin C" activity is from the ascorbate ION - after it dissasociates from the fat soluble fraction.
Owen R. Fonorow
HeartCURE.Info
American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year

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Re: Ascorbyl Palmitate/C for Lp(a) but concerned about issues

Post Number:#4  Post by IsabelH » Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:26 pm

8 Jan 2012. Interesting reading your replies Owen.

I recently emailed Dr Levy requesting info specifically about wet AMD. He sent this reply: (Note his point 3)

I have put together my Multi-C Protocol which is a way to optimize vitamin C intake for any condition.

1. 3 to 5 grams of liposome encapsulated vitamin C orally daily, for optimal intracellular support 2. Multigram doses of sodium ascorbate powder taken several times daily in juice or water up to or reaching bowel tolerance, to neutralize the commonly present toxic gut and flood the extracellular spaces with C
3. Several grams of ascorbyl palmitate daily, as a form to reach fat-soluble areas (http://www.lef.org )
4. 50 to 150 grams of vitamin C IV to "kick start" the suffusion of C into the body several times weekly at first; this can be further optimized with 5 to 10 units of Humulin insulin mixed into the IV bag.


Because I'd not heard of ascorbyl palmitate being used in a protocol before, I have been trying to find out more information about its use. Info at below doesn't encourage me to use it. http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/v ... Cform.html

When Dr Levy was in New Zealand in 2010, I didn't hear him mention use of ascorbyl palmitate, but who knows? Maybe more research is to hand now. Any comments/observations of your's would be welcomed. Thank you. Isabel

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Re: Ascorbyl Palmitate/C for Lp(a) but concerned about issues

Post Number:#5  Post by ofonorow » Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:16 am

It may depend on where the ascorbyl-palimate breaks down. It may work like aloe or Kiwi gel, in that A-P may indeed increase the bio available amount of vitamin C ingested, even though it may not persist in its fat soluble form in vivo..
Owen R. Fonorow
HeartCURE.Info
American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year


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