Anichkov's rabbits got atherosclerosis?

Answers to questions about vitamin C and its relation to all forms of cardiovascular disease

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Jacquie
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Anichkov's rabbits got atherosclerosis?

Post Number:#1  Post by Jacquie » Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:56 pm

I hope I'm just tired from the holidays, because I'm having trouble seeing something. Hope someone else can get me straightened out.

Anichkov fed cholesterol to rabbits, which supposedly gave them intimal/human-like atherosclerosis. Later, other researchers found that feeding cholesterol to dogs doesn't cause atherosclerosis unless you remove their thyroids. The common factor between both groups of animals is said to be elevated blood cholesterol levels.

Now, I'm having trouble squaring this with the chronic scurvy explanation of human atherosclerosis. I know these animals had to be in very unnatural situations in order to develop atherosclerosis, but how does that relate to their C levels? Does dietary cholesterol deplete C in herbivores? Does low thyroid reduce the C production of dogs? Or am I barking up the wrong tree entirely (ugh, sorry, pun not intended)? Is there some other way that lipids can build up in the artery walls?

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Re: Anichkov's rabbits got atherosclerosis?

Post Number:#2  Post by pamojja » Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:33 am

I think human bio-chemistry is a bid more complex that one 'unified theory' for one illness could really explain - though at a basic level - but nothing other than very superficial. Vitamin C is of course a straight solution for sub-clinical scurvy, don't think this necessarily works in other complex situations where other essential nutrients are missing too (which is very prevalent, and considering the staggering number of possible nutrient-deficiency combinations, incredible complex situations are the rule), or bio-chemical and hormonal pathways have become dysfunctional too (seems a common theme too). And though I do follow the supplement recommendations, I also believe to get a really healthy varied diet (and thereby conditionally essential nutrients not discovered yet) is important too.

For example, don't know about vit C depletion with cholesterol feeding in herbivores, but already in humans most don't absorb much dietary cholesterol at all, while some are hyper-absorbers (with vit C it gets even more complex). While in relation to low thyroid in dogs, it was quite common a few decades ago to tread high cholesterol numbers by treading a thyroid not functioning optimally in humans too.

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Re: Anichkov's rabbits got atherosclerosis?

Post Number:#3  Post by Johnwen » Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:43 am

Jacquie
I think if you study intima endothelial cells a little more, you would probably get a clearer picture of how the cascade of events leads to plaque formation. Bottom line it’s just the body trying to plug a hole in a leaky pipe and sometimes it just puts a little too much patching material in place and clogs the pipe up. V-C keeps the cells from falling apart and helps regulate the patching process.
There’s and old saying “If you can’t dazzle them brilliance, baffle them with Bull ----.”
This is what modern medicine has become. They try to lower the patching material and forget about why it’s being sent out or how to prevent it from happening in the first place. Then Bull the people into thinking this is the answer. Then you can sell everybody useless drugs and make tons of money but you have to ignore the people that have bad experiences with the drugs and do all kinds of study’s you pay for so the results will look good. Ie. Placebo effect!!
You have to ignore some of the studies you read as they are intended to prove an unfounded theory that has been shown time and again has nothing to do with the real problem!
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is
research!

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Re: Anichkov's rabbits got atherosclerosis?

Post Number:#4  Post by ofonorow » Sun Jan 08, 2012 6:42 am

What I think I learned from Dr. George Willis's early papers is that these cholesterol lesions are different in animals that produce their own vitamin C, than say of guinea pigs, which do not. He discusses the differences on the first page, second column in his paper
http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/pdfs/WillisGround.pdf

The reproduction of atherosclerosis fulfilling the morophological criteria has centered about increasing either the endogenous or exogenous cholesterol of the experimental animal. …. Although the artery is not interfered with directly, the hypercholesterolaemia and lipid deposits in the reticulo-endotheilal system have no counterpart in man....

Willis - 1953


Willis also used the term "fatty streaks" to describe the arterial lesions in experiments with animals that produce their own vitamin C. And a lot of cholesterol was required!

Willis strong argument for vitamin C deficiency as the cause of atherosclerosis was his claim that the lesions he was able to produce in guinea pigs from vitamin C deprivation were remarkable in their similarity to the human lesion.

As Dr. Rath points out in his book, animals that make their own vitamin C (most animals!) are remarkably free of cardiovascular disease.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath

Jacquie
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Re: Anichkov's rabbits got atherosclerosis?

Post Number:#5  Post by Jacquie » Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:28 am

Now I get it, after reading Willis' paper. That guy did have it all figured out, way back in '53:

Willis wrote:I have shown in two rabbits that cholesterol feeding produces a relative depletion of ascorbic acid (this animal can synthesize ascorbic acid) as measured by the intradermal dye injection method of Rotter using the modification of Slobody. This effect was also seen in cholesterol-fed guinea pigs receiving ascorbic acid by mouth. This may possibly be the way in which cholesterol produces ground substance injury under conditions of hypercholesterolaemia.

Somehow, high blood cholesterol is not only caused by low ascorbate (in man), but also causes low ascorbate (in an ascorbate synthesizer and a non-synthesizer both)! The plot thickens. I may have to retract a bit of my "cholesterol is harmless" stance. Maybe.

Of course, Willis doesn't mention the different types of blood cholesterol. We don't know how HDL, LDL, Lp(a) (do rabbits even make this?), or triglycerides were affected in the rabbits, or which were causing the ascorbate depletion, or how higher levels of Lp(a) in man may behave differently. But, this does clear up my original confusion, so thanks for the help! :mrgreen:

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Re: Anichkov's rabbits got atherosclerosis?

Post Number:#6  Post by Saw » Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:49 pm

Anichkov fed cholesterol to rabbits, which supposedly gave them intimal/human-like atherosclerosis. Later, other researchers found that feeding cholesterol to dogs doesn't cause atherosclerosis unless you remove their thyroids.

They also did rabbit cholesterol studies where they added potassium iodide or thyroid to the mix and the atherosclerosis was non nonexistent in almost all
animals. Cholesterol levels went from avg 520 mg(cholesterol fed) to 178 mg(cholesterol +thyroid).
Cholesterol + Potassium Iodide were similar @ 181 mg avg. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2132282/pdf/115.pdf

Can anyone provide a link to Anichkovs (or is that Anitschkow :?: or Anichkow :?: ) full study?
Even a Blind Squirrel makes his own vitamin C.


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