Anichkov's rabbits got atherosclerosis?

[Jacquie]

I hope I'm just tired from the holidays, because I'm having trouble seeing something. Hope someone else can get me straightened out.

Anichkov fed cholesterol to rabbits, which supposedly gave them intimal/human-like atherosclerosis. Later, other researchers found that feeding cholesterol to dogs doesn't cause atherosclerosis unless you remove their thyroids. The common factor between both groups of animals is said to be elevated blood cholesterol levels.

Now, I'm having trouble squaring this with the chronic scurvy explanation of human atherosclerosis. I know these animals had to be in very unnatural situations in order to develop atherosclerosis, but how does that relate to their C levels? Does dietary cholesterol deplete C in herbivores? Does low thyroid reduce the C production of dogs? Or am I barking up the wrong tree entirely (ugh, sorry, pun not intended)? Is there some other way that lipids can build up in the artery walls?

[pamojja]

I think human bio-chemistry is a bid more complex that one 'unified theory' for one illness could really explain - though at a basic level - but nothing other than very superficial. Vitamin C is of course a straight solution for sub-clinical scurvy, don't think this necessarily works in other complex situations where other essential nutrients are missing too (which is very prevalent, and considering the staggering number of possible nutrient-deficiency combinations, incredible complex situations are the rule), or bio-chemical and hormonal pathways have become dysfunctional too (seems a common theme too). And though I do follow the supplement recommendations, I also believe to get a really healthy varied diet (and thereby conditionally essential nutrients not discovered yet) is important too.

For example, don't know about vit C depletion with cholesterol feeding in herbivores, but already in humans most don't absorb much dietary cholesterol at all, while some are hyper-absorbers (with vit C it gets even more complex). While in relation to low thyroid in dogs, it was quite common a few decades ago to tread high cholesterol numbers by treading a thyroid not functioning optimally in humans too.

[Johnwen]

[ofonorow]

[Jacquie]

Now I get it, after reading Willis' paper. That guy did have it all figured out, way back in '53:

I have shown in two rabbits that cholesterol feeding produces a relative depletion of ascorbic acid (this animal can synthesize ascorbic acid) as measured by the intradermal dye injection method of Rotter using the modification of Slobody. This effect was also seen in cholesterol-fed guinea pigs receiving ascorbic acid by mouth. This may possibly be the way in which cholesterol produces ground substance injury under conditions of hypercholesterolaemia.

Somehow, high blood cholesterol is not only caused by low ascorbate (in man), but also causes low ascorbate (in an ascorbate synthesizer and a non-synthesizer both)! The plot thickens. I may have to retract a bit of my "cholesterol is harmless" stance. Maybe.

Of course, Willis doesn't mention the different types of blood cholesterol. We don't know how HDL, LDL, Lp(a) (do rabbits even make this?), or triglycerides were affected in the rabbits, or which were causing the ascorbate depletion, or how higher levels of Lp(a) in man may behave differently. But, this does clear up my original confusion, so thanks for the help!

[Saw]

Anichkov fed cholesterol to rabbits, which supposedly gave them intimal/human-like atherosclerosis. Later, other researchers found that feeding cholesterol to dogs doesn't cause atherosclerosis unless you remove their thyroids.

They also did rabbit cholesterol studies where they added potassium iodide or thyroid to the mix and the atherosclerosis was non nonexistent in almost all
animals. Cholesterol levels went from avg 520 mg(cholesterol fed) to 178 mg(cholesterol +thyroid).
Cholesterol + Potassium Iodide were similar @ 181 mg avg. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2132282/pdf/115.pdf

Can anyone provide a link to Anichkovs (or is that Anitschkow or Anichkow ) full study?