Age 50, history of CAD, MI, Stroke - Lp(a) increasing on PT

Answers to questions about vitamin C and its relation to all forms of cardiovascular disease

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Age 50, history of CAD, MI, Stroke - Lp(a) increasing on PT

Post Number:#1  Post by ofonorow » Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:20 am

Dear Owen,
I was hoping you could you give me some advice on lowering my Lp(a), hs-CRP and Fribrogen? I am 50 years old with a history of CAD, MI when I was 30, Stroke in 2007, two stents placed in RCA in 2010, Hypertension and Hypothyroid. I have Factor V Leiden (heterozygous). I started somewhat following the PT in March 2011. My VAP Lab numbers did improve from Aug 2011 but my Lp(a), hs-CRP and Fribrogen all increased despite some lifestyle changes within the last 6-7 mo’s (lost 30 lbs, cut out trans fats, white flour, sugar, red meat, exercising more).

Here is my meds and supplements:

Losartin 100mg
Metoprolol 100mg
Plavix 75 mg
Ecotrin 81 mg
Levothyroxin 175 mg
Hydrochlorot 25 mg
Crestor 20 mg
Niaspan 1000 mg

Vit C 6-8 g
Lysine 3g
Proline 500mg
Multi-Twin Labs Daily One Cap
Vitamin D3 2000 IU
Magnesium 200 mg
Omega 3 Oil 2000 mg
CoQ10 (ubiquinol) 100 mg
Phytosterol Complex 1800mg
Petadolex 50 mg (been taking about a mo for migranes)

My Last VAP Lab numbers are as follows:
Cholest Total 144 mg/dl
LDL-C direct 81 mg/dl
HDL-C 40 mg/dl
Triglycer 109 mg/dl
Non-HDL-C 104 mg/dl
APO B 77 mg/dl
LDL-P 1406 nmol/L
sdLDL 20 mg/dl
% sdLDL 24 calculated
Apo A-1 140 mg/dl
HDL-P 29.5 umol/L
HDL2 12 mg/dl
Apo B:Apo A 0.55 ratio calculated
Lp(a) mass 94 mg/dl
Lp(a) Choles 11 mg/dl
Hs-CRP 4.3 mg/dl
Fibrinogen 489 mg/dl
Insulin 13
Vit D 51 ng/ml
Homocysteine 10 umol/L

Any help is greatly appreciated! Joe


Drugs worry me. Total cholesterol too low. Probably need more vitamin C just to help detoxify toxic drug load (don't eat grapefruits!) Where are Pauling's vitamins E? A? B-complex? Magnesium might be low.

Not use to Lp(a) being reported that way - but seems to imply large particles, which are usually less atherogenic.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath

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Re: Age 50, history of CAD, MI, Stroke - Lp(a) increasing on PT

Post Number:#2  Post by JoMo145 » Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:26 am

Owen,

I don't like the drugs either! Over the past 2 yrs since my stents I've felt lousy (brain fog, dizzy, forgetful). My goals is to get off as many as I can. Cardiologist doesn't seemed concerned about total Choles just wants to get my LDL's below 80. I don't eat
grapefruit. I get my Vit A (10,000 IU as beta carotene & retinyl palmitate), Vit E (100 IU as d-alpha tocopheryl acid succinate) and Vit B from my Multi-Vitamin. I also have other issues with Arthritus & psoriasis(past 10-15 yrs), diverticulitus(since 2009), IBS(since a kid), sinus troubles(most of adult life). Could this all be stemming from inflammation? What direction should I take?

Thanks,
Joe

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Re: Age 50, history of CAD, MI, Stroke - Lp(a) increasing on PT

Post Number:#3  Post by JoMo145 » Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:56 pm

What does Pauling recommend in the way of Vitamins A, E & B's? Is my Multi vitamin sufficient for these? I am currently taking VC in pill form but I'm considering switching to powder form the next order (hard taking all those pills). Do you think the powder is more absorbable? Right now I'm taking 2g at a time. I'd like to increase this to 3g at a time. Any thoughts on using Nattokinase to reduce CRP and Fibrinogen?

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Re: Age 50, history of CAD, MI, Stroke - Lp(a) increasing on PT

Post Number:#4  Post by ofonorow » Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:11 am

Pauling's recommendations are in his book HOW TO LIVE LONGER AND FEEL BETTER (around page 14). I have also copied them as the foundation of my recommendations,
http://www.practicingmedicinewithoutalicense.com/protocol/

Basics

Vitamin A - 25,000 iu daily
Vitamin E 400 to 800 iu daily
B-complex 1 or 2 daily
Vitamin C 6000 mg to 18000 mg daily
Good multi vitamin/mineral
Drink a lot of water, and reduce sugar intake


I think Pauling did make a mistake by not advocating vitamin D(3), partially because you can get a good supply from exposing the skin to sunlight. (This "mistake" may be why the vitamin D science has advanced without the same debunking other nutrients Pauling recommended have had to endure.)

As far as the Nattokinase enzyme - I personally tend to favor Pauling's orthomolecular approach - start with substances the body has evolved to know and use, such as all the essential vitamins, minerals and amino acids.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath

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Re: Age 50, history of CAD, MI, Stroke - Lp(a) increasing on PT

Post Number:#5  Post by JoMo145 » Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:38 am

Should VC be taken on empty stomach or with food?

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Re: Age 50, history of CAD, MI, Stroke - Lp(a) increasing on PT

Post Number:#6  Post by Johnwen » Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:03 am

Not use to Lp(a) being reported that way - but seems to imply large particles, which are usually less atherogenic


Maybe this will help make it clearer.
LPa is high!
More Lysine...

http://www.mayomedicallaboratories.com/ ... tive/89005
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is
research!

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Re: Age 50, history of CAD, MI, Stroke - Lp(a) increasing on PT

Post Number:#7  Post by JoMo145 » Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:31 am

Maybe this will help make it clearer.
LPa is high!
More Lysine...



Johnwen,

Currently taking 3g Lysine. Do I have to increase this slowly? How much do you think? Is that article mentioning a different test of the Lp(a)?

Thanks,
Joe

VanCanada

Re: Age 50, history of CAD, MI, Stroke - Lp(a) increasing on PT

Post Number:#8  Post by VanCanada » Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:54 pm

JoMo145 wrote:Any thoughts on using Nattokinase to reduce CRP and Fibrinogen?
Regarding nattokinase, here are links to a podcast and to an online article.

(1) MP3 - WWCR Show #151 (Feb. 19, 2011) by Dr. William Wong, N.D. (For the nattokinase information, listen from the 7th minute and 50th second mark to the 10th minute and 52nd second mark. To hear a beautifully expressed rant from the good doctor, listen from the beginning.) MP3 file size = 13.6 MB

To paraphrase the most relevant bits of that podcast:
Nattokinase has no feedback mechanism like other enzymes do. The blood-thinning effect of nattokinase can go too far. Serrapeptase is a safer enzyme to use than nattokinase is.


Direct download link: http://www.naturalhealthpodcasts.com/PodCasts/february_19_2011.mp3



(2) HTML page - The ABC’s of Understanding Enzyme Blends by Dr. April Hernandez, DC

...The second blend of ABC has 2x of Bromelain, 10x of Nattokinase, and 3x of Lipase.

If this blend were to be marketed as a blood thinner, that would be ok as long as only a small amount were prescribed to the client to prevent hemorrhage. If this were marketed as an anti-inflammatory for sports and the person thought just because the ingredients were the same, he or she may mistakenly take handfuls of the enzyme, not knowing that he is thinning his blood to the point of inducing a hemorrhage. The 10x of the Nattokinase puts this blend in the category far from a systemic enzyme...
http://www.totalityofbeing.com/FramelessPages/Articles/EnzymeABCs.htm

VanCanada

Systemic enzymes are important orthomolecular substances

Post Number:#9  Post by VanCanada » Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:26 pm

Dr. William Wong, N.D. wrote:Systemic enzymes on the other hand are perfectly safe and free of dangerous side effects. They have no LD-50, or toxic dose. (6)

Reference (6): Enzymes: A Drug of the Future, Prof. Heinrich Wrba MD and Otto Pecher MD. Published 1993 Eco Med.

-quoted from: http://www.totalityofbeing.com/FramelessPages/Articles/WhatAreSystemicEnzymes.htm
Dr. William Wong, N.D. wrote:For at least the last 40 years most of us have been taking vitamin and mineral supplements and have been doing and feeling somewhat better. Almost daily now there is more and more information on the function of some nutrient and on its place in the overall scheme of health.

But I've got a question! If these nutrients fill their allotted functions then why don't they seem to work the same for everyone? In other words, they seem to help some folks and not to work at all in others! Is there some underlying thing that allows these nutrient substances to perform their actions? Are vitamins, minerals and herbs the do all end all of attaining wellness or, are they the bricks and cement that must be placed on a solid foundation before they can take up their tasks solidly?

Let's redefine some terms. In 1913, Dr. Funk discovered nutritional substances he called "Vital Amines" or Vitamins for short. Without getting into biochemistry it turns out that vitamins are not amines but coenzymes, substances that help enzymes to work. An enzyme is a huge protein that speeds up chemical reactions. Without enzymes, chemical reactions would happen so slowly that life would not be able to exist at all. The human body has some 3000+ enzymes and over 7000 enzymic reactions...

Most folks think of enzymes as being involved only in digestion. This is among the last things that enzymes do. Of all the enzymes in the body, the protein cleaving (or cutting-eating) ones are the most important. These have 4 primary actions, they:

1. Reduce inflammation
2. Balance the repair mechanism and prevent fibrosis, (the buildup of scar tissue)
3. Clean the blood
4. Modulate the immune system

Folks who do not experience the beneficial reactions expected from their coenzymes (vitamins) possibly don't have the enzymes that the coenzyme is supposed to help! The human body produces a finite amount of enzymes. From the age of 27 on, that enzyme production begins to wane. Dr. Max Wolf, an MD with 7 other Ph.D.'s after his name, researched enzymes and hormones at Columbia University from the 1930's through the 1960's. He found that round about 27 most folks stop making as many enzymes as they used to and that this event started the cycle of aging. In physiology we are taught that old age begins at 27! ...
(edit)
... When we only take vitamins, minerals and herbs, as important as they are, we are skirting around the outside of the essentials for health. If we just take supplements and not replace the enzymes we are wasting a good bit of money, expectation and time...

-quoted from http://www.totalityofbeing.com/FramelessPages/EssentialsPage.htm

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Re: Age 50, history of CAD, MI, Stroke - Lp(a) increasing on PT

Post Number:#10  Post by Johnwen » Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:47 am

First your levothyroxine I believe should be (point) .175mg which is a pretty steep dose. With having your thyroid still in place. Have they done a tsh test on you lately? I betting it’s way low. This in it’s self can cause numerous problems.

Anyway getting back to your LP(a) your taking 20MG of crestor which is a statin drug intended to lower your cholesterol. By the number’s on your test it has done this in fact although your doc is probably happy with these results which are low, your body is doing what it’s suppose to do and that is trying to get more life giving materials out to the body as a whole.
I think every one has heard about the little kid who every time he see’s a fire he see’s firemen at the fire. So he concludes that fires are caused by the fireman. This is the analogy that represents the statin principal. Ie. If cholesterol present in the artery’s it’s causing the problem not trying to cure the real problem.
Putting a little different spin on this picture let’s say a warehouse in a residential neighborhood catch’s fire and people start calling the fire department. If a full compliment of fire equipment and fireman arrive the calls will stop. But what would happen if one truck and say two or three fireman show up and just spray a little water on the fire and the other side of the burning building is fully involved which is threating the houses around it. You can bet your bottom dollar there will be hundred’s of calls to the fire department for more equipment.
LP(a) is like those calls. They are the precursors to the repair process of the arteries the body releases them in numbers and basically counts them when they return. They attach to dead tissue and either stick at the location of problem and attach the other patching materials or attach to the loose ones and carry them out of the body. If the numbers returning are low it means their sticking somewhere in the system and the body raises their levels and sends more patching material out. If the patching material is lacking Like from taking STATINS. The body will still add more LP(a).
We know PT helps heal the artery’s but healing takes time patching is quick. LP(a) goes up when there is a problem even higher when it don’t have the material to do it’s job.
Bottom Line: Taking STATINS causes your LP(a) to rise NOT PT!!!
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is
research!

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Re: Age 50, history of CAD, MI, Stroke - Lp(a) increasing on PT

Post Number:#11  Post by JoMo145 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:57 am

First your levothyroxine I believe should be (point) .175mg which is a pretty steep dose. With having your thyroid still in place. Have they done a tsh test on you lately? I betting it’s way low. This in it’s self can cause numerous problems.


My Bad! It is 175 mcg. Last TSH was 2.56 in Aug. Due to get this retested.

LP(a) is like those calls. They are the precursors to the repair process of the arteries the body releases them in numbers and basically counts them when they return. They attach to dead tissue and either stick at the location of problem and attach the other patching materials or attach to the loose ones and carry them out of the body. If the numbers returning are low it means their sticking somewhere in the system and the body raises their levels and sends more patching material out. If the patching material is lacking Like from taking STATINS. The body will still add more LP(a).
We know PT helps heal the artery’s but healing takes time patching is quick. LP(a) goes up when there is a problem even higher when it don’t have the material to do it’s job.
Bottom Line: Taking STATINS causes your LP(a) to rise NOT PT!!!


Very Interesting! My next VAP test is in July. My doc wants my LDL's under 70 (i think?). He eluded to increasing the crestor last visit, but I said NO! So, should I be worried about the high Lp(a)? Or is this normal with taking statins? I am increasing VC (taking 2.5 g/ 4 x/ day) and Lysine (taking 1 g/4 x /day). Will this be helpful? What about the Crp and Fibrinogen levels?Thanks so much for your help!

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Re: Age 50, history of CAD, MI, Stroke - Lp(a) increasing on PT

Post Number:#12  Post by JoMo145 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:14 pm

Regarding nattokinase, here are links to a podcast and to an online article.

(1) MP3 - WWCR Show #151 (Feb. 19, 2011) by Dr. William Wong, N.D. (For the nattokinase information, listen from the 7th minute and 50th second mark to the 10th minute and 52nd second mark. To hear a beautifully expressed rant from the good doctor, listen from the beginning.) MP3 file size = 13.6 MB

To paraphrase the most relevant bits of that podcast:
Nattokinase has no feedback mechanism like other enzymes do. The blood-thinning effect of nattokinase can go too far. Serrapeptase is a safer enzyme to use than nattokinase is.

Direct download link: http://www.naturalhealthpodcasts.com/Po ... 9_2011.mp3





Thank You Van! Nice Podcast! I will research systemic enzyme's and serrapeptase.

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Re: Age 50, history of CAD, MI, Stroke - Lp(a) increasing on PT

Post Number:#13  Post by JoMo145 » Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:14 am

Have they done a tsh test on you lately? I betting it’s way low. This in it’s self can cause numerous problems.


Ok, just got results back from TSH test! 1.35 mIU/L Reference range 0.40 - 4.50 mIU/L

Will post my next Lab Tests in July.


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