It is currently Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:12 pm




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 
 Possible method to overcome Bowel Tolerance Limit 
Author Message
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 7:10 pm
Posts: 72
Post Possible method to overcome Bowel Tolerance Limit
I was revisiting an older website (http://www.krysalis.net/cancer3.htm), where I discovered dmso, and found the following on how to possibly consume high VC without hitting BTL ( I left in the niacin piece too as its interesting). Any truth to this approach ?...

Dr. Hoffer, in his book "Vitamin C & Cancer" demonstrated the importance of large doses of only two vitamins, vitamin C and niacin (or niacinamide), for the treatment of cancer. Of these two, Hoffer found Vitamin C to play a greater role for treating cancer (while niacin played a greater role for treating schizophrenia). Other nutrients were added also, but more at elevated levels, not at megadose levels. I would like to make some comments about taking such large doses of these vitamins.

1. Vitamin C, Overcoming the Bowel Tolerance Limitation: Dr. Hoffer commonly prescribed 12 grams/day of vitamin C to his patients, taken in 4-gram doses three times a day. This was in combination with niacin (up to 3 grams/day) and other supplements at elevated levels but not in megadose levels. At this dose he seemed to experience more success than at lower doses. There were also some patients that increased this to 40 grams/day with what seemed to be even more success (with cancer). However, when attempting such large doses, most people experience the onset of diarrhea at considerably lower levels. Thus, as is common in the community of people advocating large doses of vitamin C, it is suggested that one take up to the "bowel tolerance level", which is the dose rate just below that which causes the onset of diarrhea. It appeared that the bowel limitation was limiting the oral intake of vitamin C to a level that was less than optimum for the treatment of cancer, at least in some people. I decided to take a look at what was causing this diarrhea limitation and came up with a logic for both the cause and how it could be removed as a treatment limitation, while retaining oral intake.

The cause of the bowel limitation: When food leaves the stomach it enters the duodenum as an acidic chime. When the duodenum senses the acidity, it releases secretin to the blood. The secretin then stimulates the pancreas to release a bicarbonate flush into the duodenum, which neutralizes the acid and sweeps in the digestive enzymes. If this does not happen, the acidity can damage the intestine. Now lets introduce large doses of vitamin C. Vitamin C is very acidic. It increases the acid load in the stomach. Above a certain point, the volume of acid entering the duodenum exceeds the ability of the pancreas to neutralize it. The acid then starts to damage the intestine and the intestine responds with diarrhea in order to flush the acid out. Thus you have the bowel limit for vitamin C. It will vary from one individual to the next because everyone will have a somewhat different capacity for a bicarbonate flush to neutralize the acid.

The solution: The solution is very simple, neutralize the vitamin C before taking it. You can purchase the sodium salt of vitamin C (or another salt of it) but more simply you can neutralize the vitamin C yourself. I have done this many times. I simply fill a glass of water about 1/4 full and add a teaspoon full of vitamin C powder, which dissolves. If you taste the solution at this point it will be very sour (acidic). I then sprinkle in some baking soda. This results in a lot of foaming (releasing carbon dioxide) while forming the sodium salt of the vitamin C in the water phase. I taste the solution and watch the foaming as I slowly add the baking soda. When the foam stops forming, the sour taste is gone and I can hardly taste anything except a slight taste of the baking soda. The vitamin C is still there and should be just as effective for the treatment of cancer, but will no longer add to the acidity of the stomach and should no longer cause diarrhea at large doses. Thus, the vitamin C can now be added to the optimum level for the treatment of the cancer without being concerned with a bowel tolerance limitation. I have tried this on myself and found it to be quite effective for me - eliminating diarrhea. (I don't have cancer.) Some others have found it to be effective also. However, every individual is different and it may not work for everyone.

2. Niacin, Overcoming the Niacin Flush Limitation: As Dr. Hoffer has discussed in his book; many people cannot tolerate the flush that goes with his maximum recommended dose of 3 grams/day. His remedy is niacinamide, at lower levels, which does not cause a flush. However, as I have discussed in Item 31 above, I would think it would be even better to replace it with a combination of niacin (at a much lower, flush tolerable dose), niacinamide, vitamin B6 and tryptophan. This will eliminate the flush limitation while stimulating all three paths for the formation of NADH, not just one. It should result in a more effective method of producing NADH at lower doses of each, without a serious flush limitation.




Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:27 am
Profile
Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard

Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:16 pm
Posts: 9078
Location: Lisle, IL
Post Re: Possible method to overcome Bowel Tolerance Limit
Quote:
Above a certain point, the volume of acid entering the duodenum exceeds the ability of the pancreas to neutralize it. The acid then starts to damage the intestine and the intestine responds with diarrhea in order to flush the acid out. Thus you have the bowel limit for vitamin C. It will vary from one individual to the next because everyone will have a somewhat different capacity for a bicarbonate flush to neutralize the acid.


Interesting, and if this were true, then one would expect larger bowel tolerances taking sodium ascorbate than ascorbic acid, and in all these years, I have not heard this.

An experiment would be to determine ones tolerance for ascorbic acid, say for a week.

Then take 50% more (to twice as much) sodium ascorbate and verify the higher tolerance. If anyone tries this, please let us know your results.

There is something about this analysis that doesn't seem quite right. The HCL (stomach acid) is a much stronger acid than vitamin C, and when vitamin C is taken as ascorbic acid, we know that some is absorbed through the stomach lining, and never enters the intestines. I'll wait for the experiment or thoughts from others.

_________________
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath


Sat Aug 29, 2009 5:46 am
Profile
Vitamin C Master
Vitamin C Master

Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2006 4:58 pm
Posts: 225
Location: North Carolina
Post Re: Possible method to overcome Bowel Tolerance Limit
I personally don't buy the explanation of the bowel tolerance it as it doesn't appear to me that ascorbate salts significantly increase bowel tolerance (maybe 25% increase, possibly more for those who just can't tolerate ascorbic acid). I think Cathcart's explanation of bowel tolerance is the correct one (osmosis draws water into the large intestine because of the disolved ions, nothing to do with the acid). None of this is to say though that ascorbate salts aren't useful, and I've found a roughly 50/50 mixture of ascorbic acid and sodium ascorbate work best for me.

On the subject of niacin, I've noticed it seems to increase tolerance slightly, almost like it is causing the ascorbate to "burn" slightly faster. The niacin flush might work in your favor as well, possibly helping to drive ascorbate into the tissues.


Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:54 pm
Profile
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 2:02 am
Posts: 60
Post Re: Possible method to overcome Bowel Tolerance Limit
I don't know how much stock people here put into 'alternative' researchers.

But I found this http://www.cancertutor.com/Cancer02/VitC_BSoda.html which describes an anti-cancer protocol, involving vit C and baking soda.

Now, my point is that they have a warning:
Quote:
Very Important Note

The baking soda portion of this treatment should not be used for more than three weeks at a time...


So, for some reason, they seem to think prolonged baking soda intake is/could be harmful.

I, myself, am looking for ways to increase bowel tolerance. I used to be able to take about 12+gm of C daily. But now I cannot even handle 8gm. :( (and I'm even using the buffered C)

Has anyone tried baking soda over longer periods of time?
And what amounts are we talking about?


Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:14 am
Profile
Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard

Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:16 pm
Posts: 9078
Location: Lisle, IL
Post Re: Possible method to overcome Bowel Tolerance Limit
Quote:
I, myself, am looking for ways to increase bowel tolerance. I used to be able to take about 12+gm of C daily. But now I cannot even handle 8gm. :( (and I'm even using the buffered C)


So, how do you feel? This could be good news if whatever was causing your high tolerance has been resolved.

_________________
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath


Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:11 am
Profile
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 2:02 am
Posts: 60
Post Re: Possible method to overcome Bowel Tolerance Limit
ofonorow wrote:
So, how do you feel? This could be good news if whatever was causing your high tolerance has been resolved.


I'm addressing heart arrhythmias and palpitations.
There has not been a bettering of the symptoms since my tolerance has dropped.

What do you think about the baking soda part?


Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:12 am
Profile
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 10:05 am
Posts: 193
Location: Boston
Post Re: Possible method to overcome Bowel Tolerance Limit
There is a book out called 'Why Stomach Acid is Good for You' by Jonathan Wright. If stomach acid is indeed essential to good health, then a protocol that constantly neutralizes all of your stomach acid is probably not a good idea for the long term.

_________________
-DanSco

Note: I am not a doctor nor do I pretend to be one on the internet. Do not duplicate what I do without a pat on the head from your doctor and a note from your mommy.


Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:10 am
Profile
Vitamin C Master
Vitamin C Master

Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:44 am
Posts: 247
Post Re: Possible method to overcome Bowel Tolerance Limit
DanSco wrote:
If stomach acid is indeed essential to good health, then a protocol that constantly neutralizes all of your stomach acid is probably not a good idea for the long term.

Here a very detailed explanation by Steve about how much sodium bicarbonate would be necessary to fully neutralize ascorbic acid:

Steve Brown wrote:
.. For example, it would take 477 milligrams of sodium bicarbonate to neutralize 1000 milligrams of ascorbic acid.

(very well worth to read this post fully:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7486&hilit=sodium+bicarbonate
.. the 13th in this thread)

It's my experience that already half a gram of sodium bicarbonate eases much acidity of a 8 gram ascorbic acid dose. But that's still very far from neutralizing the whole dose.

Therefore, I don't think a bid of sodium bicarbonate - up to a almost half the amount of ascorbic acid - would completely neutralize or therefore could do much harm.

Regards..


Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:00 am
Profile
Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard

Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:16 pm
Posts: 9078
Location: Lisle, IL
Post Re: Possible method to overcome Bowel Tolerance Limit
Quote:
alive wrote:
ofonorow wrote:
So, how do you feel? This could be good news if whatever was causing your high tolerance has been resolved.


I'm addressing heart arrhythmias and palpitations.
There has not been a bettering of the symptoms since my tolerance has dropped.

What do you think about the baking soda part?



Others answered the baking soda question.

Regarding irregular heart beats:

Think: More magnesium, not more than 2 mg manganese daily. The rationale is contained in this excerpt http://www.practicingmedicinewithoutali ... /protocol/

Some people react to vitamin E - but I believe this can be due to rancidity in the capsules. Try A. C. Grace's Unique-E in place of vitamin E you are now taking.

_________________
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath


Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:54 am
Profile
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 2:02 am
Posts: 60
Post Re: Possible method to overcome Bowel Tolerance Limit
Thanks. I'm doing your full protocol already. co-Q10, vit E, vit C, lysine, proline, omega-3, D3, iodine, melatonin, copper, selenium, magnesium. :)

I wanted to do taurine as well, but it gives me tachycardia, I found out.
The only thing left to try is arginine.


Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:17 am
Profile
Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard

Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:16 pm
Posts: 9078
Location: Lisle, IL
Post Re: Possible method to overcome Bowel Tolerance Limit
Good, but I mention unique-E because its "filler" inside the capsule will not go rancid. Other brands may, and can lead to racing hearts.

Have you checked all your supplements to make sure you are not getting more than 2 mg of manganese?

What about dental work? Do a google search on "cavitations" and irregular heart beat.

_________________
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath


Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:28 am
Profile
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 2:02 am
Posts: 60
Post Re: Possible method to overcome Bowel Tolerance Limit
ofonorow wrote:
Good, but I mention unique-E because its "filler" inside the capsule will not go rancid. Other brands may, and can lead to racing hearts.

Have you checked all your supplements to make sure you are not getting more than 2 mg of manganese?

What about dental work? Do a google search on "cavitations" and irregular heart beat.


Yes, I have checked for manganese.
I think I'm below the 2mg mark. I'm taking some powder minerals (Schindele's). Its hard to calculate how much I'm exactly getting.

But I can tell you I've had heart trouble long before I took any minerals (or vitamins for that matter).


Fri Oct 09, 2009 3:44 am
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group.
Designed by Vjacheslav Trushkin for Free Forums/DivisionCore.