bowel tolerance reached or not?

This forum will focus on the interesting topic of titrating oral vitamin C intake to so-called bowel tolerance, the point just prior to the onset of diarrhea

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iirisz
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bowel tolerance reached or not?

Post Number:#1  Post by iirisz » Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:19 am

My father has colon cancer metastasized to the liver.
He’s been taking 6 grams of liposomal vitamin C in the morning. In addition to that, he’s been taking ordinary vitamin C in divided doses throughout the day. He hasn’t tested his bowel tolerance, but he keeps increasing his dosage all the time.
Currently he’s been taking 2000 mg doses as tablets (ascorbic acid), 5-7 times in a day. That makes it 10-14 g in a day, as tablets. Plus 6 grams of liposomal.

He just switched to ascorbic acid powder yesterday. After the second powder dose he complained that it burns his throat, even though he’s been adding some baking soda to it. I advised him to add some more. I guess it only burns for a while. Does that really matter when it doesn’t continue burning? Does it cause any damage?
Would ready-made sodium ascorbate feel better than ascorbic acid neutralized with baking soda?

By the evening, we were wondering if he has reached his bowel tolerance, after all. He had to go to bathroom more than 6-7 times yesterday. However, it wasn’t always just “water”… Today in the morning, he took the liposomal vitamin C and had to go to bathroom immediately and everything came out. To us that sounds like he’s reached his limit, but I guess I’m trying to find some confirmation here. :) I’m having hard time believing that he would have reached the limit because he’s got the cancer (plus heart problems).

The reason why it’s difficult for us to know whether it’s really diarrhea or not is because ever since he found out about the cancer, he’s been on different kind of diet which has caused a lot of changes in his bowel functioning. Lots of gas and everything is “loose”. We don’t even know how much is caused by the diet, how much by vitamin C and how much by other supplements. He’s tried leaving some supplements away but hasn’t really noticed any difference.

So, can anyone confirm me, for one to have diarrhea caused by vitamin C, does it have to be all “watery”?
And does one have to go to bathroom basically almost immediately after taking the dose?
And does the diarrhea have to last longer or just like one session? :)


Also, can anyone explain how come he could take the same amount of ascorbic acid as tablets but not as powder? (or would that mean that the tablets are of bad quality?)

Now, IF he could tolerate much more as sodium ascorbate, which would be better: Less amount as ascorbic acid or more as sodium ascorbate?
Or would it be basically the same because ascorbic acid is more “powerful”?

I would really appreaciate any comments. Thanks!

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Re: bowel tolerance reached or not?

Post Number:#2  Post by davids1 » Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:52 pm

Hi Piritta,

I never had a problem with the ascorbic acid powder burning my throat [that I remember (but that's been at least 16 years ago)]. If it were me, I would make sure to dilute the powder in plenty of water [if it "burned" my throat]. I would think [potentially] the "burning" of the mucus membrane in his esophagus would not be a good thing [although I would think it would heal itself relatively quickly].

Sodium ascorbate is typically made by mixing ascorbic acid with sodium bicarbonate, i.e. baking soda, at a proportion of anywhere from 2 to 3 parts bicarbonate to 3 parts acid. From my perspective, if taking it orally, anywhere in there will work fine [but again, from my perspective, the less bicarbonate the better].

It sounds like he certainly did reach his Bowel Tolerance. From my perspective, since his health is poor [and he is older] he will probably have difficulty raising his Bowel Tolerance high [and fast] enough to effectively deal with his health issue(s). If it were me, and I was "fighting for my life" I would definitely persevere in trying to raise my Bowel Tolerance, i.e. ingest all I could, 24/7, i.e. to Bowel Tolerance constantly. If it were me, and it was available (and I could afford it), I would certainly consider intravenous sodium ascorbate [given the severity of this health situation].

From my perspective, Piritta, the "diarrhea" he is experiencing, although inconvenient, is [probably] a good thing [healthwise], at least in the short run [of a few weeks]. The "stool" is watery if there is no remaining fecal matter in the colon to expel. My experience has been that [even with the tablets (vs. the powder)] the reaction can be pretty fast, i.e. the tablets seem to dissolve within minutes. If in powder form, yes, almost immediately, sometimes. And yes, a dose may not come out all in one bowel movement [in my experience], i.e. sometimes several.
...how come he could take the same amount of ascorbic acid as tablets but not as powder?
I do not understand what you are asking.

If he wants to ingest the same amount of antioxidant, he would need to take twice as much sodium ascorbate as ascorbic acid.

All this is just my viewpoint, Piritta.

I wish the best of success to you and your father!

Sincerely,

David
JFYI, I have ingested a Bowel Tolerance dose of ascorbic acid [via one gram tablets], in HEALTH, not illness [of which I have had virtually none], basically every day since 1994, amounting to [currently], on average, 75+ grams [daily], in 10 to 15 divided doses.

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Re: bowel tolerance reached or not?

Post Number:#3  Post by iirisz » Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:34 am

Hi David,

Thanks again for your answer!

We had actually already figured it out ourselves that my father needs to dilute it in more water. He's done that and it no longer burns his throat.

What do you mean by raising bowel tolerance? Is it something that happens by itself when you keep taking vitamin c close to that level? Or is there something else to do to raise it?
Actually, now that I read your aswer again, I guess you just said it, to increase the tolerance you need to take as much as you can, all the time.

About my question that you did not understand.
My father was able to take four of 500 mg tablets (= 2 g) at once, seven times in a day. Plus 6 grams of liposomal. But when he changed to ascorbic acid powder and tried taking the same amount (2 grams at once, seven times a day. plus liposomal), he could not do that but reached the bowel tolerance.
So he could take 14 grams ascorbic acid as tablets but not as powder. I'm wondering what does that mean? tablets are not as powerful???
we don't have a clue how much he could take as tablets. I mean, how much more to reach the limit. We haven't tried it with the tablets.

Would it be better to take more as tablets or less as powder (as long as either one is close to the bowel tolerance)? If he can tolerate more as tablets, would that mean that more vitamin c was actually absorbed (compared to the less amount as powder)?

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Re: bowel tolerance reached or not?

Post Number:#4  Post by davids1 » Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:37 pm

Hi Piritta,

You are most welcome.

My experience has been, that as time has passed and I have kept up with Bowel Tolerance doses, my Bowel Tolerance level has gradually increased. I assume this is because my GI Tract has become more and more cleaned out [but I do not know for sure that that is the reason]. I believe Pauling, in writing about the "rebound effect" [of stopping ascorbate dosing too quickly], speculated that it may be that as one ingests more and more ascorbate, one's white blood cells [of one's immune system] build up more and more [using more and more ascorbate in the process]. Perhaps this is why my Bowel Tolerance limit is increasing. Again, I do not know for sure [but (if that is the case) it does not strike me as a (necessarily) bad thing, i.e. having an (over) abundance of white blood cells continually circulating, i.e. as continuous protection].
...to increase the tolerance you need to take as much as you can, all the time.
Yes, that is it.

As an aside, I think Bowel Tolerance is an almost "magical" occurrence/concept [and that is why I now always capitalize it], in that one does not need to GUESS at the amount of ascorbate to ingest [or inject], or have a blood [or other fluid] test done [and then "guess" some more]. Unquestionably, I am experimenting, Piritta. Perhaps I am doing some sort of long term damage to myself [by ingesting so much ascorbic acid]. How does one ever really know for sure? I can only say that I feel very good [and am virtually never sick (including even a headache), never take drugs, and am almost 64 years old], and that, i.e. feeling of well-being, is the basis for my continuing with this experiment. Cathcart's experience with Bowel Tolerance dosing, of tens of thousands of patients [that were ill], convinces me that it is a worthwhile [and intelligent] experiment, i.e. health seeking endeavor. In the case of your father, I would think he has (virtually) nothing to lose, i.e. all to gain, by "experimenting" with Bowel Tolerance dosing with ascorbate!

I have wondered before whether the [ascorbic acid] tablets were, gram-for-gram [of ascorbate], as "powerful" as the powder/crystals. It always made sense to me that, at the very least, they would not be quite as "powerful," i.e. effective, gram-for-gram, because of the extra ingredients needed in the tablet [that I assume, to some extent, the ascorbic acid is involved in eliminating, i.e. chelating], plus they are more expensive, gram-for-gram of ascorbate, than the powder/crystals. In other words, from my view, technically, I think the powder/crystal [form] is [ultimately] the best form to ingest ascorbate in [and if ill, doubly so].

Question, Piritta: Are you sure the ascorbate in the tablets is nothing but ascorbic acid, i.e. not a mixture of mineral ascorbates? What is the filler being used for the tablets [it is usually listed second in the ingredient list]? (I think cellulose is best, and I would be cautious with calcium carbonate [long term]). How much less of the powder did he ingest to reach Bowel Tolerance? I do not remember much difference in my Bowel Tolerance when I switched to the tablets from the powder/crystals, but that has been a long time ago. At any rate, as long as a person is ingesting ascorbic acid, whether tablets, capsules, or powder/crystals [to Bowel Tolerance], I do not think it makes much difference. I've always felt the convenience [albeit extra expense] of the tablets was worth it, i.e. even if I do have to take more of them [gram-for-gram], and additionally, it does protect the tooth enamel that way.

Bottom-line: As long as he is reaching Bowel Tolerance [from oral ingestion], from my view, it does not matter what form the ascorbic acid is in [as long as the filler is not calcium]. "Tolerating" more, as tablets, would NOT mean he is getting more benefit, than less, as powder/crystals. Bowel Tolerance is Bowel Tolerance [in my view, and it is the key, i.e. letting the body "decide" how much it wants, at any particular time].

Best of success to you, Piritta!

Sincerely,

David
Last edited by davids1 on Sun Aug 04, 2013 12:47 pm, edited 3 times in total.
JFYI, I have ingested a Bowel Tolerance dose of ascorbic acid [via one gram tablets], in HEALTH, not illness [of which I have had virtually none], basically every day since 1994, amounting to [currently], on average, 75+ grams [daily], in 10 to 15 divided doses.

randian

Re: bowel tolerance reached or not?

Post Number:#5  Post by randian » Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:30 pm

Sometimes tablet labels are misleading and show gross amounts rather than net. They may say "sodium ascorbate 500mg", that is in fact much less than 500mg of net ascorbic acid. The extra mass of the sodium must be subtracted to find the net ascorbic acid amount. If it says "ascorbic acid (as sodium ascorbate) XXX mg" then that's usually a correct net amount. That may explain the discrepancy presuming you're correctly dosing the raw ascorbate powder.

For example, L-glysine is so heavy it takes 4 large pills of magnesium glycinate to get 400mg of net magnesium.

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Re: bowel tolerance reached or not?

Post Number:#6  Post by iirisz » Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:30 pm

The tablets that my father was taking consisted of ascorbic acid, micro crystalline cellulose and magnesium stearate. Nothing else. At least nothing else was listed.

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Re: bowel tolerance reached or not?

Post Number:#7  Post by davids1 » Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:52 pm

Hi Piritta,

If those were the only ingredients in your Father's ascorbate tablets, I think he has some good ones!

Just to be sure, does the label say, assuming these are one gram tablets, that the amount of ascorbic acid per tablet is 1,000 milligrams?

Just making sure,

David
Last edited by davids1 on Sun Aug 04, 2013 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
JFYI, I have ingested a Bowel Tolerance dose of ascorbic acid [via one gram tablets], in HEALTH, not illness [of which I have had virtually none], basically every day since 1994, amounting to [currently], on average, 75+ grams [daily], in 10 to 15 divided doses.

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Re: bowel tolerance reached or not?

Post Number:#8  Post by iirisz » Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:16 pm

THey are 500 mg tablets and I don't actually know what the label says (I haven't seen the product, I don't live close to my dad). I've only read what it said about it on the Internet. All it says is that is has 500 mg of vitamin C. And then it lists ascorbic acid. It is a Finnish brand so I'm having hard time believing that it didn't have 500 mg of ascorbic acid. Usually you can trust the information on a Finnish product. I mean, I believe it was mentioned if it had less ascorbic acid. Even for other kind of tablets, for example calcium ascorbate tablets, it always says clearly on the package how much ascorbate is there in reality.

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Re: bowel tolerance reached or not?

Post Number:#9  Post by davids1 » Sat Aug 03, 2013 3:53 pm

Hi Piritta,

This may be belaboring the subject [too much], but when it says "it has 500 mg of vitamin C. And then it lists ascorbic acid," is/(are) their any other ascorbate(s) listed? If not, I assume it contains only ascorbic acid [as the ascorbate].

I am curious: How much higher was your Father's Bowel Tolerance with the tablet form of ascorbic acid vs. the powder/crystal form?

Best wishes,

David
JFYI, I have ingested a Bowel Tolerance dose of ascorbic acid [via one gram tablets], in HEALTH, not illness [of which I have had virtually none], basically every day since 1994, amounting to [currently], on average, 75+ grams [daily], in 10 to 15 divided doses.

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Re: bowel tolerance reached or not?

Post Number:#10  Post by iirisz » Sun Aug 11, 2013 4:21 am

Nothing more listed than what I mentioned earlier.

I don' really know how much higher his bowel tolerance was. First of all, he never tested all the way to the bowel tolerance only with the tablets. So I don't know if he could have taken more as tablets. He switched to using powder and then the same amount caused diarrhea.
I also don't really know how much he needed to drop the dosage to get rid of diarrhea. He doesn't do things in a consistent manner...unfortunately. He's supposed to mark down every time he takes pills, so that he remembers to take them all. But he often forgets to mark them all down... So he's not sure how many grams vitamin c he takes every day. Also, his diet varies and that influences, as well.
And there have been all kinds of other stuff going on here to mess things.
So I can't really answer you. If we'll ever find that out again, I'll let you know.


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