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 Questions from a Naturopath 
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Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard

Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:16 pm
Posts: 9078
Location: Lisle, IL
Post Questions from a Naturopath
Quote:
Hi Dr. Fonorow,

got your email address from Mike. I'm a naturopath living in
Montreal,Canada. Getting very confused about vitamin C. would appreciate a few minutes phone conversation with you. Please email me back when would a good time be for a 15 minute talk. I'm usually more available daytimes until 2pm est. next week Tuesday or Thursday works well for me.
thanks,
S. F.


Hello,

I prefer email or our forum. What is the source of your confusion?

Remember that the "natural" form of vitamin C for almost all animals is not what they eat, but what their livers (or kidneys) make out of glucose - ascorbic acid.


Quote:
Hi Owen,

Its funny. On the site I read a letter referring to Dr. Cowen and Sally Fallon. I'm following much of the school of thought of traditional eating (Weston Price), but always had a hard time accepting that acerola powder would be equivalent to therapeutic vitamin C- but what about the need for bioflavanoids with the ascorbic acid? and what about mineral ascorbates being a better way to take C?
Thanks,
S. F., Montreal


I'm with you in that Weston Price, especially in their vitamin A research, which is top notch. I'm not sure Weston Price endorses what Sally and Dr. Cowen wrote, but I give them (WP) credit for calling and speaking with me to ask for "the other side", as have you.

This "natural" vitamin C trap has snared a great many well meaning people, especially and including the USA's National Foundation for Alternative Medicine, who declined to run a study of the Pauling therapy for heart disease because we were proposing to use ascorbic acid as Pauling proposed, and not a "natural vitamin C complex." The well-meaning head of this org actually believed his daughter who told him "synthetic" vitamin C (ascorbic acid) might harm the study participants. He told me he had "implicit" faith in his daughter who as a trained nurse with an alternative bent, and it turns out she learned about the "dangers" of synthetic C and the benefits of "natural" C from a lecture given by Standard Process.

As you probably know, I didn't, SP has a spotless reputation, based > on the ideas of Royal Lee, and this lecture series is at least partially responsible for the belief in "natural vitamin C."

So I went to SP's web site and looked at some of their products, and guess what, their vitamin C in any product approaching a useful > amount uses ascorbic acid - "synthetic vitamin C." That led me to look for any evidence of the so-called "Vitamin C COmplex" and other than this rumor, there is none. There is a citrus complex, and it may have some health value, but they have tried to attach the name vitamin C to this complex to inherit (steal?) the known benefits of vitamin C.

The "natural" form of vitamin C is that which all animal livers make out of glucose. Ascorbic acid. This most animals make 24/7 except for some high order primates (and us), guinea pigs and a fruit bat. What we advocate is replacing the "natural" blood levels in all other species, or for that matter the apes in the wild, that would be there if not for the GLO defect. The health benefits of doing this are enormous, too many to list. The problem is that we as a specicies have not adapted yet to large oral intakes, so many people have a great deal of trouble replacing what their livers should be making.

We recommend either ascorbic acid or sodium ascorbate, and these are the two forms that travel within the body - ascorbic acid in the blood and sodium ascorbate through the lymphatic system. According to the leading world expert, ascorbic acid is TWICE as effective as a free radical scavenger as sodium ascorbate (or any other form) but
only sodium ascorbate can be given IV.

Re: bioflavonoids. Some benefits, but apparently these molecules, while "natural" are not orthomolecular, at least not known to be required for cellular function, and Pauling cites the early evidence in his book that placebo had no effect on colds, bioflavonoids alone had not affect on colds, but vitamin C and vitamin C with bioflavoniods had an equivalent effect suppressing the common cold.

_________________
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath


Mon May 19, 2008 9:03 am
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Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard

Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:16 pm
Posts: 9078
Location: Lisle, IL
Post Re: Questions from a Naturopath
Quote:
Thanks for the detailed reply.....I really appreciate the explanation. What is the difference between taking ascorbic acid and sodium ascorbate orally? Would a mixed ascorbate blend (mag, calcium, etc.) be ok or the other forms are preferable? What is the average recommended amount for an adult?
Thanks,


Good questions. The Government recommended daily amount is between 60 and 75 mg. This prevents frank scurvy.

Linus Pauling's recommended amount as published in HOW TO LIVE LONGER AND FEEL BETTER is between 6,000 mg and 18,000 mg.

Thomas Levy, MD, JD, recommends a similar amount (6,000 to 12,000 mg) in his books Curing the Incurable: Vitamin C, Infectious Diseases and Toxins, and Stop America's #1 Killer.

But many of us have not adapted to getting this much orally, and have problems with gas/diarrhea. There is a new liposomal product that doesn't seem like vitamin C - no gas/diarrhea. 100% absorption. It is called Lypo-C (livonlabs.com) (Some argument whether one of their packets is worth 2 g up to 10 g of ordinary ascorbic acid. But it does raise vitamin C levels in the blood.)

At low, more normal dosages, the salts are fine, but, when C is being used as a treatment protocol, say to fight a virus, then according to the late Robert Cathcart http://www.orthomed.com/titrate.htm the vitamin works by squelching the stream of free radicals being produced by the infection. Since Ascorbic acid can neutralize 2 free radicals, while any salt (sodium ascorbate, calcium ascorbate, mangnesium ascorbate, etc.) is already attached to the mineral ion and can only squelch one free radical. This is why Cathcart says he was never able to achive the "ascorbate effect" with mineral ascorbates, only ascorbic acid orally, as described in the last reference with mineral ascorbates. (You can't give AA IV, so sodium ascorbate is used intravenously.)

Levy recommends only two forms. Ascorbic acid or sodium ascorbate, and many people can turn ascorbic acid (or some of it) indo sodium ascorbate by adding a little bicarbonate of soda to their vitamin C drinks.

_________________
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath


Mon May 19, 2008 9:08 am
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Ascorbate Wizard
Ascorbate Wizard

Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:16 pm
Posts: 9078
Location: Lisle, IL
Post Re: Questions from a Naturopath
Quote:
Hi Owen,

Reading Lendon Smith's book, he refers to giving C to babies and young kids. Which form of C would one give to babies and kids and how? dissolved in water? Which books on C would you recommend that I read?

Also, is there a practical guide to using it w patients (non-IV, only oral)? Thanks for all your advice from the last emails. I will order the Lypo-C and try out some sodium ascorbate in the mean time.
Thanks,
S. F.

Nature favors the child, so it is important for the mother to supplement, especially during breat feeding.

In my case, my wife increased her vitamin C prior to conception, and took 6000 to 10000 mg during pregnancy and lactation. After weaning we used 500 mg chewables (like candy) until he was able to take his vitamin C as pills. We also added the powder to water and o.j.

The general rule is 1 g per year of age up to 10 years. Because of my Son's overall health, we stopped around 6000 mg daily and that is generally his daily intake 3000 mg in the am and 3000 mg in the pm. He is now 18.

He has never felt sick in his life, missing one day of school for what looked like Chicken Pox (1 pox) Perfect attendance in High School. He has been given Linus pauling's entire antioxidant program since he was old enough to swallow pills.

Advice is the same about the form, generally ascorbic acid is what we gave him and it is twice as "powerful" as any salt.

Have you read Pauling's HOW TO LIVE LONGER AND FEEL BETTER? Good book to start with.

_________________
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath


Wed May 28, 2008 5:41 pm
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