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 Urgent help needed! Young son has viral infection 
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Post Urgent help needed! Young son has viral infection
I am sorry, I don't have time to look through the archives, so I apologize if this question has been addressed before.
My 8 months old son developed a fever of 102 yesterday. The ped said it is a viral infection (his lungs, throat, nose are clear) and prescribed Tylenol to control fever. I didn't give him any yet. The fever is helping him to fight of the disease, isn't it?
I was trying giving him a pinch of Ascorbic acid powder mixed with a tiny bit of water or breast milk via medicine dropper, but he keeps on fighting it. He also threw up several time, so I am not sure whether he is tolerating it well.

What is the correct dose to give him at this point and in what form (ascorbic acid, sodium ascorbate, crushed chewable for kids, etc)?

What is the best way to sneak it in his body? I tried adding it to yogurt this morning and he took it better. Is it ok to mix Vit C with food?

Any other supplement might be helpful?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:37 am
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Post Re: Urgent help needed!
You did right not to give Paracetamol. There is generally no need to give it to the child until temperature is up to 39C if it lasts for a day or so because immune system works better. Keep him ventilated and easily dressed. If kid is happy, has appetite and so on, its probably not serious. IF he has no appetite, don't force him to eat. Breastfeeding would be great.

You can give him up to 4 g of vitamin C without any problems (I did so on my daughter). Small kids are more tolerant to vitamin C then adults due to the higher lymphocyte count during first year. You will know that you used too much when flatulence starts.

Other supplements could include Zinc-Gluconate (up to 50mg) or even N-Acetyl-Cystein (up to 100mg), vitamin D3 (2000IU), Iodine (250 mcg) and probiotics (Bifido/lacto, basically any dose you want)

One of the ways to give C is with Stevia or ... sugar (its better to have C+sugar, then no C).
Since my daughter was eating regularly in that time, I used to crush tablets into her meal (for instance some starchy rice/wheat/potato grits or whatever).

About C, I dropped a bit in water and was giving to her entire day (frequency is important). My daughter likes acid taste, but you could add sodium to neutralise, Stevia, Xylitol etc..

If you try any of that, make sure you start with testing dose as your son might be allergic to something. Some of it might give stomach pains (happens to my daughter with Mg-Citrate and multivitamin Now Kids)

As of the diet, if you give him solid foods now, bring attention to coconut oil, butter, kefir, cod liver oil, w-3 fish oil and carrots, which you should do anyway. Hi quality.

If he is in big pain or temperature rises more, give him paracetamol (the dose is usually around 15-20 mg/kg). Its not that harmful if its acute.


Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:12 am
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Post Re: Urgent help needed!
Thank you so much for such fast response!

His fever has been holding up at 102.2 all night and went down to 101.6 in the morning. He keeps throwing up after I give him Vitamin C which makes me think it irritates his stomach. But then maybe he is nursing too much as he practically doesn't come of the breast.

If I add sweetener to ascorbic acid powder, will it be more gentle on his stomach?


Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:29 am
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Post Re: Urgent help needed!
I hate to bring up one more thing to be worried about, but it is probably not a good idea to give Paracetamol/acetaminophen to children:

http://www.vindy.com/news/2011/nov/28/p ... attention/
Dr. John T. McBride wrote:
An Akron Children’s Hospital pediatric physician’s stance that children with asthma should not use medicines containing acetaminophen has drawn national attention.

Dr. John T. McBride, director of the Robert T. Stone MD Respiratory Center at Akron Children’s, does not contend that Tylenol causes asthma. However, he says there is sufficient evidence to say that it exacerbates the condition, particularly in children, by further irritating their lungs.

He had for several years followed literature pointing to an association between the use of acetaminophen (Tylenol) and asthma, but remained skeptical.

However, when doing research to speak on the subject to a pediatric pulmonary professional organization, he said he was “stunned” at the large body of evidence suggesting the link.

So were his fellow pediatricians, and they urged him to publish his findings.

“The evidence was very persuasive and the solution simple... Until there is absolute proof that acetaminophen is safe for asthmatics, switch to ibuprofen medicines for pain and fever,” he said.

One study cited by Dr. McBride, the “International Study of Allergy and Asthma in Childhood” published in 2008 and in 2010, included more than a half-million children at 122 centers in 54 countries, including the United States. About 200,000 children were age 6 to 7, and some 320,000 were age 13 and 14.

According to the study, in children who took acetaminophen more than once a year but less than once a month, the risk of current asthma was 61 percent higher in those age 6 to 7, and for young children who took acetaminophen more than once per month, the risk of having asthma more than tripled. For older children who took acetaminophen more than once a month, the risk of having asthma increased 2.5 times.

Another indication by the body of studies on the link between acetaminophen and asthma is that the entire asthma epidemic, which grew from 1980 and peaked in 1995 and has remained steady since, is related to the use of acetaminophen.

Your pediatrician should know the correct dosing for ibuprofen, should your son need it.

kolganito wrote:
He keeps throwing up after I give him Vitamin C which makes me think it irritates his stomach... If I add sweetener to ascorbic acid powder, will it be more gentle on his stomach?

Andrew Saul says it is okay to sweeten ascorbic acid with fruit juice or sugar to get it to go down and stay down:

Andrew Saul wrote:
Yes, sugar, that universal bane of health writers. Sweet, sweet sugar is the way to get little kids to take tons of sour, sour ascorbic acid. Of course, you can simply use children's chewable vitamin C. Many kinds are really delicious, but they are pricey. Pure ascorbic acid dissolved in sugar water is the cheapest "solution" to the flu problem that there is.

Now I am not suggesting that you gorge your offspring on sugar. I'm simply a realist. This is cheap, and it works. And it works with sick kids at three AM. If you put vitamin C powder in really sweet natural fruit juice, that often does the trick, too.

You could also try sodium ascorbate, as it is almost pH neutral (7.4) and is easier on some people's stomachs.


Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:27 am
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Post Re: Urgent help needed!
Thank you so much!

As far as I know to make sodium ascorbate, the proportion is 2 Ascorbic Acid : 1 baking soda?

Jacquie wrote:
I hate to bring up one more thing to be worried about, but it is probably not a good idea to give Paracetamol/acetaminophen to children:


I try not to use any kind of medication unless absolutely necessary.


Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:56 am
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Post Re: Urgent help needed!
Good info jacqiue, I wasn't aware of that particular study.

NAC is used as primary detox from paracetamol poisoning so thats one reason to suggested it. Other is that it is mucolitic agent (prevents mucus build up in nose and lungs), great heavy metal chelator and great for liver in general. Although its extremely safe, you should probably wait until he is at least 1 year old.

However, if kid is very sick, its better to give paracetamol then leave it like that.

As for medications, you can probably use topical ones on occasion, like nasal antibiotics for few days.

Yes, that is the correct ratio for sodium ascorbate. I don't know why he pukes from C, I never heard about something like that.


Last edited by majkinetor on Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:41 am
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Post Re: Urgent help needed!
Quote:
His fever has been holding up at 102.2 all night and went down to 101.6 in the morning. He keeps throwing up after I give him Vitamin C which makes me think it irritates his stomach. But then maybe he is nursing too much as he practically doesn't come of the breast.


If this is a form of stomach flu - or some kind of food poisoning - then throwing up may be a natural immune reaction. Somehow the effort should be to try and raise his vitamin C levels (which will become severely depleted fighting whatever it is that ails him.)

Find out what he can tolerate in water - even if only hundreds of milligrams. And make sure that everything he drinks has a little vitamin C in it.

p.s. Just noticed that he is nursing (Bravo!) meaning you can give your child more vitamin C - through his mother! Nature favors the baby. Ask you wife to take more vitamin C, and more will come through the mother's milk.


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Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:55 am
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Post Re: Urgent help needed!
Quote:
meaning you can give your child more vitamin C - through his mother!

I don't think this will be much relevant. Amount of C in breast milk will be higher but it is still highly controlled and low compared to what will be achieved otherwise.
Also, if mom didn't take C before, using it now may start detoxing reaction and some toxins may finish in milk (or at skin, as Pauling mentioned).
Small doses , lets say between 1 and 2 g should be enough and probably safe for mom to take.

I think its better to try orally on baby.


Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:44 am
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Post Re: Urgent help needed!
M-
I don't know where you get your information, but a few references may help me.

You are speculating and it makes little sense to me.

It is well enough known (by orthodox medicine) that nature favors the baby, and that vitamin C levels will increase when mother's intake increases,http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=vitamin%20c%20lactation so "well known" that my wife and I were taught this during our maternity classes sponsored by the company I then worked for. I was surprised they mentioned it.

And of course increasing the mother's vitamin C will benefit her health too!

This one of the more interesting studies in the above list
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15883433
Ascorbic acid supplementation and regular consumption of fresh orange juice increase the ascorbic acid content of human milk
Quote:
CONCLUSIONS:

Human milk AA can be doubled or tripled by increased intake of AA in women with low human milk AA content at baseline. The response to a relatively high dose of AA was modest in European women in contrast with the 3-fold increase in mean human milk AA content in African women. These data indicate that human milk AA content is regulated.




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Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:37 am
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Post Re: Urgent help needed!
ofonorow wrote:
Quote:

Ask you wife to take more vitamin C,

[/color]


I am the nursing mother. And I have been taking about 5g of C a day for the last 7 months. Right now, I increased the dose to probably 8-10g. I hope it is not too much for me to start the detox.

I also read somewhere that Vit C level in breast milk increases only to a certain point and than stays the same no matter how much the mother is taking.

I still hope that he'll get more than usual through me because I can't get him to drink enough. He keeps his mouth locked for anything but the breast.


Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:55 am
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Post Re: Urgent help needed!
kolganito wrote:
I am the nursing mother. And I have been taking about 5g of C a day for the last 7 months. Right now, I increased the dose to probably 8-10g.

Excellent! You're doing well by your son. Going from 5 g up to 8 - 10 g is unlikely to make you start detoxing. In fact, the extra dose should help neutralize/deactivate any toxins you do happen to pick up.

kolganito wrote:
I still hope that he'll get more than usual through me because I can't get him to drink enough. He keeps his mouth locked for anything but the breast.

You could try using a lactation aid. Sodium ascorbate would probably work the best with this route, as it's only mildly salty tasting, and is unlikely to be noticed by your son during nursing.


Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:30 am
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Post Re: Urgent help needed!
I had better luck with him accepting the vitamin today. I gave him about 3g in 10 hours, but he's not getting better. His fever is still 102 (went up to 103 at some point during the day). I did give him tylenol 4doses of 0.8ml and it helped for a short time, he sweated for a while, but then the fever came back.

Maybe I should increase his dose of C? I was giving about 300-400mg every 2 hours, now I switched to every hour.

We are going to the ped now and I sure she'll prescribe antibiotics which I don't want to give. But my son is very miserable at this point, he can't even sleep.


Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:34 am
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Post Re: Urgent help needed!
kolganito wrote:
The ped said it is a viral infection (his lungs, throat, nose are clear) and prescribed Tylenol to control fever...

We are going to the ped now and I sure she'll prescribe antibiotics which I don't want to give.

Yeah, antibiotics are of no value against a viral infection. They should only be used if your pediatrician finds a secondary bacterial infection (in your son's sinuses, for example).

kolganito wrote:
Maybe I should increase his dose of C? I was giving about 300-400mg every 2 hours, now I switched to every hour.

Have his bowel movements been more watery or frequent from the vitamin C yet? I ask because oral vitamin C does its best work at near-bowel tolerance doses. This means finding the minimum dose that causes looser stools, and giving about 90% of that dose as often as possible, without causing looseness (I know this can be tricky to determine in a breastfeeding baby).

edit: Forgot to say that even if you can't get him to near-bowel tolerance levels, smaller doses are still worth giving, as they will help him feel better and his immune system fight harder.


Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:31 pm
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Post Re: Urgent help needed!
Ped didn't prescribe any antibiotics (which made me trust her even more as she doesn't rush with the treatment). Urine analysis was clear. She just switched us to ibuprofen.
Jacquie wrote:
Have his bowel movements been more watery or frequent from the vitamin C yet?


actually he didn't have any stool since Monday, so I guess we are far from bowel tolerance. It will be easy for me to determine as his stool is very formed now. I guess I can increase the dose? I it better smaller doses but more frequent?


Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:27 pm
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Post Re: Urgent help needed!
kolganito wrote:
Ped didn't prescribe any antibiotics (which made me trust her even more as she doesn't rush with the treatment). ...She just switched us to ibuprofen.

She sounds like a keeper! :D

kolganito wrote:
I guess I can increase the dose? I it better smaller doses but more frequent?

More frequently is better, yes. You don't have to make the doses smaller if they aren't causing diarrhea. Sick people, adults and children both, can hold surprising amounts of vitamin C.

For adults, the Vitamin C Foundation recommends 8 grams every 20 minutes. I personally cured my last case of the flu (sick for 2 days before starting the C, fever, exhaustion, etc.) by taking 15 - 20 grams (a heaping tablespoon of sodium ascorbate in a glass of water) every 1 to 1 1/2 hours. I slept in between each dose, and took another every time I woke up. My symptoms were completely gone in 24 hours time (my mother, who had given me the virus and, at the time, was skeptical of large doses of C, was sick for 2 weeks and ended up with pneumonia). I kept taking large doses till my bowel tolerance went back to 3 grams or so (a couple days later), at which point the virus was fully defeated.

Obviously a baby won't need doses that large, but he may be able to take quite a bit more than you'd first expect. If he's able to sleep in between doses, you can probably space them out a little further (like I did). If he isn't getting any relief from his misery, give it more often. As long as he's well-hydrated, the only practical limit on how much you give him is his bowel-tolerance.


Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:44 pm
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