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 Dr. Phil Bate on Chelating Difference between SA and AA 
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Post Dr. Phil Bate on Chelating Difference between SA and AA
Quote:
I am definitely interested in your product, not for myself, but for those many persons who are allergic to corn products, especially to gene mutated corn which is becoming more and more of a problem.

I have the following questions?

1. What is your ascorbic acid derived from?

2. What is the container it is shipped in?

3. What amounts are available at what prices?

4. Are you aware that any ascorbate vitamin C does NOT take out toxic and other minerals, and is somewhat less effective in killing bacteria and virus cells?

I have a lengthy article on a four part therapy for Autism and other mental problems which uses ascorbic acid utilizes ascorbic acid to take out mercury and aluminum in particular for such cases. If your product is useful for the many allergic to corn, I will modify that article to include your product as an alternative at no cost to you. I have no corn problem, so am not interested for myself, but I try to give such information to my customers.

Thanks for your information.
Do you manufacture any ascorbic acid from non corn sources? I have found
> that many people cannot take vitamin C other than ascorbate forms, and when
> tested these people are actually allergic to the minute amounts of dextrose
> left in the Vitamin C.
>
> Many people experience stomach ache after taking ascorbic acid. This is
> ridiculous as the stomach acid is much stronger than the ascorbic acid. And
> in testin g some of thes (including my late wife, I found the "corn
> allergy".
> I would like to find a source to recommend people to in my weekly
> newsletter, as I advise high C doses for many uses.
>
> Phil Bate PhD - http://drbate.com


DSM Quali-C manufactured in Europe is guaranteed 100% corn free and free of GMOs. We believe it is the finest (purest) Vitamin C on the market, and our customers with various allergies report that, for the great majority, they are able to tolerate our vitamin C when they cannot most other brands.

If someone with an allergy tries our product, and has a reaction, we offer a full money back guarantee.

The only issue may be one that Carthcart discovered in his patients; leaching from the plastic jar to the large surface area of the vitamin powder. He recommended switching the powder to a dark glass jar, and storing in a cool dark place. (We cannot ship glass.) So for extra extra sensitive patients, this precaution seems sensible.

The issue of what the original source of the materials from which the vitamin is manufactured arises often, but is irrelevant in the case of Quali-C - since only the pure C6H8O6 molecule remains. I am sure DSM uses the most economical materials (has to compete with China giving away their products) but what matters is whether people have allergies. They don't to our product (but I predict sensitive people probably would to some high cost, low volume product, say made from sugar cane. The manufacturing process would likely be inferior. In other words, a marketing gimic.)

Now DSM may use sugar cane, I don't know, I don't really care, and it doesn't matter. Its not the initial ingredients, but the end-product that matters.

I am very interesting in your articles/technique to use vitamin C (ascorbic acid) to "take out" mercury and aluminum.

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Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath


Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:59 am
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Post Re: Autism Newsletter Looking for Dextrose Free/Corn Free C
I am intrigued by the idea that "no ascorbates" seem to have the chelating effect on mercury that ascorbic acid has. I would like to know more about that. We have discussed the"neutralizing" effects of vitamin C on highly reactive mercury, but only sodium ascorbate should be given IV, and we have discovered that the pH (and the way it is prepared) has a profound affect on sodium ascorbate's ability to detox mercury.

The commercial IV'S have some effect, minor, and are harmful to veins given over time.

The fellow who has monitored his mercury poisoned sister and brought all this to my attention, see:
http://vitamincfoundation.org/pdfs/mercurycase.pdf

uncovered a reference that sodium ascorbate is hundreds, perhaps thousands of times better penetrating tissues to help chelate mercury (but I don't know how accurate that reference is.)

I remember the book published in the UK by chemistry professors that at least partially explain vitamin C's ability to "chelate" mercury..

HOWEVER - thanks to environmental science - Chris Shade, PhD - I think I know that the only real way to expel mercury from with a cell is GLUTATHIONE (GSH). (According to Boyd Halley, the only proven way to increase intracellular GSH is with high doses of vitamin C. So we arrive at the same place.)

Finally, true liposomal C, real nano particles, such as Lypo-C from LivonLabs can act like an IV. I remember the fellow in the case reporting that his sister had a certain amount of relief from Lypo-C - no needles
and no doctor!

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Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath


Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:16 am
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Post Re: Autism Newsletter Looking for Dextrose Free/Corn Free C
Quote:
GM Owen,

My late wife had high lead 27 years ago when I first met and fell in love with her. She was very allergic to corn, so she couldn't take plain ascorbic acid, so she took Calcium Ascorbate for years, as that didn't bother her.

A year before her death in May 2010 (25 years later), I did another hair analysis, and found that she still had a high level of lead, telling me that her ascorbate C hadn't removed it, but my hair analysis at the same time showed all toxics except arsenic were "unmeasurable". We both took about 4 grams of vitamin C daily, but hers was an ascorbate form, and mine ascorbic acid. No mercury or lead measurable.

She ;had had the hobby of stained glass that requires a lot of soldering, and that is where she got the lead I assume, and she quit that hobby right after we met and married.

Once the ascorbic acid gets into the bloodstream, any minerals that are pH positive get mixed with the acid C, becoming the ascorbate form. This means that like chelation, all minerals from nutritional to toxic may be removed. Once an ascorbate is formed, it cannot change to another ascorbate.

In addition, once it becomes an ascorbate, it is water soluble and thus passes out of the body via the kidney and urine pathway, thus remaining in the blood less time, and thus not as "active" in killing bacteria and virus cells.

In 1982/3, I spent time with Linus Pauling on the phone, and he knew that vitamin C could act as a chelation agent, but he thought that the ascorbate form would work as well. He was also unaware (as I was at that time) that vitamin C is not very useful against hormone mediate4d cancers, but was very effective against viral mediators. He was taking 18-20 grams per day with prostate cancer (which killed him shortly after).

I hope this clears up some of the confusion about vitamin C and the two forms of it that are virtually unknown by most MD's and the general public.

The other information is is ignored by MD's is that we primates (humans and the ape/monkey family) unlike virtually all other animals lost one enzyme about 65 million years in some mutation. This enzyme was one that enabled virtually all the other animals to manufacture ascorbic acid C from glucose. Think about that a moment, and realize how healthy the human primates (us) would be with that ability - no more bacterial or viral infections. (No more Big Pharma!!)

Please leave my website wherever. I sell my Neuroliminal Training CD's from that site along with giving my 30 years experience as an orthomolecular psychologist as free advice there. Professionals get a 50% discount. If interested, let me know.

It, and my nutritional knowledge have reversed my aging dramatically. At 85, I've already lived longer than all my parents and grandparents, and am healthier than most 65 year old males now.



Very interesting. I am looking up our discussion of ascorbic acid effectively neutralizing the most toxic form of mercury, and did find the following discussion of vitamin C as a chelator, and it is mentioned here http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9515&p=27712&hilit=mercury+neutralize#p27712

Quote:
Binding vs neutralizing.

If you expose mercury to ozone in a lab petri dish it will oxidize the mercury. Making the mercury water soluble and inert to the body. The body can then pull it out of the fat and expel it without it touching thousands of cells on the way out..killing them all. VERY VERY FEW THINGS HAVE THE ABILITY TO NEUTRALIZE MERCURY ON CONTACT.

Vitamin c acts in a similar way...and destroys the mercury on contact. So does glutathione. The body takes the inert broken down harmless mercury molecules out of the body. (In reality..not all mercury is 100% neutralized on site..some takes a while..and/or is partially neutralized, but that is better than just binding to the mercury molecules and dragging it through the body destroying everything in its path) NO ONE SEEMS TO KNOW THIS.

Mercury is so dangerous..why on God's earth ...


http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7471&p=18321&hilit=organic+mercury#p18321

added. And as I mentioned, only sodium ascorbate (pH around 7.0) should be given intravenously, and the person who supplied the above quote, has been working to detox a mercury poisoned sister, finds that sodium ascorbate IVs per Cathcart's protocol, are far superior to current commercial (buffered ascorbic acid.)

Part of the answer may be that the ascorbate ion is not always tightly bound to the sodium, and some does disassociate in solution, making the ascorbate ion available for both detox and chelation.

added. Your wife is also one data point, and may have been a "low lead excretor", just as environmental science has discovered a bell curve of mercury excretors: low, medium and high.

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Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath


Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:14 am
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Post Re: Dr. Phil Bate on Chelating Difference between SA and AA
Quote:
GM Owen,

If ascorbic acid combines with mercury to make mercury ascorbate, it too is water soluble, and non dangerous. My hair analysis around 2004 showed mercury levels aroujnd half way to toxicity. In 2007, I started 4 grams of ascorbic acid, and as of about 2009, my mercury levles were "unmeasurable". (As were all except aluminum and arsenic. Since then, only arsenic at a very low level.

My experiences and study of both Linus Pauling and Bob Cathcart tell me that the taking of ascorbic acid vitamin C is the "best" and by far the cheapest way to get all toxic minerals and other toxins as well out of the body. Costco sells a 500 tablet of 1000mg for about $15. This can't even begin to compare to any form of Glutathione, the only other "natural way" to get rid
of toxic minerals.

In addition, ascorbic acid kills bacteria and virus cells in the body when it is in large amounts above 1000 mg. It is somewhat more powerful than any ascorbate form doing this as many studies have shown. I've even cured MRSA using "bowel tolerance" with ascorbic acid. I'll never take another FDA antibiotic or vaccine in my life. (Even Jonas Salk is now against all vaccines.)

And, in addition, let's consider the antioxidant ability of 4000 mg per day for a 150-200 pound human. Vitamin C in any form is "dismissed" generally as an antioxidant, because of the ridiculous RDA of 75 mg set by Big Pharma and the FDA. If you start thinking about "grams" instead of tiny amounts, there's a huge difference in killing free radicals with C.

I'm constantly amazed at the lack of real knowledge about ascorbic acid. Virtually every other animal on this planet other than we primates has the enzyme in their body to change glucose into ascorbic acid. Think how healthy we would be if we hadn't lost it 60 million years ago.


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Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath


Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:23 am
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Post Re: Dr. Phil Bate on Chelating Difference between SA and AA
Trying to reconcile the difference of opinion - whether ascorbate is what binds with heavy metals (per Jaffee http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fnfa48mjL8 or ascorbic acid, as Mr. Bates prefers. (Rereading, Cathcart used sodium ascorbate IV)


Quote:
GM Owen,

My late wife had high lead 27 years ago when I first met and fell in love with her. She was very allergic to corn, so she couldn't take plain ascorbic acid, so she took Calcium Ascorbate for years, as that didn't bother her.

A year before her death in May 2010 (25 years later), I did another hair analysis, and found that she still had a high level of lead, telling me that her ascorbate C hadn't removed it, but my hair analysis at the same time showed all toxics except arsenic were "unmeasurable". We both took about 4 grams of vitamin C daily, but hers was an ascorbate form, and mine ascorbic acid. No mercury or lead measurable.

She ;had had the hobby of stained glass that requires a lot of soldering, and that is where she got the lead I assume, and she quit that hobby right after we met and married.

Once the ascorbic acid gets into the bloodstream, any minerals that are pH positive get mixed with the acid C, becoming the ascorbate form. This means that like chelation, all minerals from nutritional to toxic may be removed. Once an ascorbate is formed, it cannot change to another ascorbate.

In addition, once it becomes an ascorbate, it is water soluble and thus passes out of the body via the kidney and urine pathway, thus remaining in the blood less time, and thus not as "active" in killing bacteria and virus cells.

ofonorow wrote:
Quote:
GM Owen,

If ascorbic acid combines with mercury to make mercury ascorbate, it too is water soluble, and non dangerous. My hair analysis around 2004 showed mercury levels aroujnd half way to toxicity. In 2007, I started 4 grams of ascorbic acid, and as of about 2009, my mercury levles were "unmeasurable". (As were all except aluminum and arsenic. Since then, only arsenic at a very low level.

My experiences and study of both Linus Pauling and Bob Cathcart tell me that the taking of ascorbic acid vitamin C is the "best" and by far the cheapest way to get all toxic minerals and other toxins as well out of the body. Costco sells a 500 tablet of 1000mg for about $15. This can't even begin to compare to any form of Glutathione, the only other "natural way" to get rid
of toxic minerals.


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Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath


Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:24 pm
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Post Re: Dr. Phil Bate on Chelating Difference between SA and AA
Shared some of Dr. Jaffe's ideas, and we've had an exchange on whether ascorbate (alkaline) or ascorbic acid is better for mineral detoxification.

Quote:
I don't care how many doctorates he has, he still doesn't seem to know know the difference between ascorbates and ascorbic acid vitamin C. In one year, of taking 4 grams of ascorbic acid per day, I lost all mineral toxins, with a relatively "normal level of mercury, lead, aluminum, etc. Now, all t6oxic minerals are "not measurable", and I used no other chelation techniques at all.

During that time period (5-6 years ago, my late wife lost none of her toxic minerals, and she had a high amount of lead (from doing stainless glass before we were married 28 years ago). She had a corn allergy, so she took calcium ascorbate at 405 grams per day for years. You make up your mind.



Well other than the problem with that much calcium (ascorbate)...

I accept your anecdotal evidence as promising for ascorbic acid, and other than the fact that you are not your wife, we have a point of comparison. On the other hand, the point of his calibration test, is to determine the individuals requirement - (usually from 10 g to 130 g) while at the same time, not allowing toxins to recirculate (by being reabsorbed by the digestive tract.)

I wish I could ask him why the focus on "ascorbates" since in theory, I think you can make an argument that ascorbic acid might be a better source of ascorbate. (He may have passed away last June). I am guessing that his research showed that ascorbate worked better, to "complex, mobilize, and safely expel" heavy metal toxins in an alkaline environment/solution. So part of his method was to make the "system" alkaline, (and he apparently wrote a book, or his company has, called "The Alkaline Way.")

This may not to be to the exclusion of ascorbic acid, a weak acid. Which may even work better. (Do you have any references you could point me to?)

It may be that much lower amounts of ascorbic acid would be required to achieve the same effect, but only an experiment, perhaps in guinea pigs, will settle this.

He produced his ascorbate calibration method (Later called C Cleanse) in the 1980s, and I have enormous respect for the man, and his integrity as a scientist.

I guess I will have to read The Alkaline Way


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Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:21 am
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Post Re: Dr. Phil Bate on Chelating Difference between SA and AA
Couldn't find such a book, (The Alkaline Way by Jaffe) but searching pubmed for Jaffe found about 1000 references. Restricting to vitamin C, found a couple that may provide a clue to Dr. Jaffe's "bias" against ascorbic acid...d

Quote:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/474527
Inhibition by ascorbic acid (vitamin C) of chemical detection of blood in urine.

Jaffe RM, Lawrence L, Schmid A, MacLowry JD.

Am J Clin Pathol. 1979 Sep;72(3):468-70.

PMID:
474527
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Related citations
2.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1200528
False-negative stool occult blood tests caused by ingestion of ascorbic acid (vitamin C).

Jaffe RM, Kasten B, Young DS, MacLowry JD.

Ann Intern Med. 1975 Dec;83(6):824-6.

PMID:
1200528
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Related citations

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Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath


Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:34 am
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Post Re: Dr. Phil Bate on Chelating Difference between SA and AA
Of Jaffe's video lectures, this is perhaps the most relevant to this disccus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ibz0IHGNCCU (2009)

When he says he recommends ascorbate - "uses ascorbate ' found in foods" we can tell by the later discussion that Jaffe is talking about L versus D ascorbate, not ascorbic acid versus sodium ascorbate!

Regarding heavy metal detox.

Says L-ascorbate is the only "divalent cation" - found in nature.

vicinal hydroxyls"

Two hydroxyls on the same side of adjacent carbons - unique in nature, only L ascorbate has that

D-ascorbte does not.

"can be used with or without d-penicillamine"

Says references are in physical chemistry, (the affinity the divalent cation has for the various metals mentioned)

J. of Experimental Botany, 2002: 53(272): 1351-1365

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Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath


Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:31 am
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