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 Homemade Lypo C 
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Post Homemade Lypo C
Looking for some feedback on an idea I had on making some homemade lypo C. After reading on the lypo c website that they make their product by shooting at 1700 psi at a steel plate, I wanted more info on how that worked.

So, reading up on how the liposomes are formed and make the delivery system http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liposome it turns out there are several methods for making a liposome. one of them was through sonification, or the use of ultrasonic waves to collapse everything and then the liposome bubbles start forming around whatever solution they were in due to their hydrophobic ends. (see the manufacturing section under the wiki link). Though it's considered a "gross" method of manufacturing, I doesn't seem to be any worse than the high psi creation method.

so, my thought was this. To purchase some liquid phospholipids at the local health store, take some AA dissolved in distilled water to as great a concentration as possible, put it in a beaker or some other glass container, then put that into a jewelery cleaner that uses ultrasonic waves to see if that would dissolve the phospholipids and then allow it to reform in bubble with the AA solution effectively encapsulating the AA.

Any thoughts on the technical aspect of such an endeavor? The local harbor freight store has a small 50 watt cleaner but also a larger 160 watt cleaner that should put out a little more juice.
According to this book http://books.google.com/books?id=3C-kd_ ... t&resnum=6 a bath type method of sonification is a viable.

comments?


Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:00 pm
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Vitamin C Master
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Post Re: Homemade Lypo C
very interesting, let us know how it turns out.;


Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:16 pm
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Post Re: Homemade Lypo C
Thanks. I was really looking for feedback to see if that seems technologically feasible, before I go out and spend money for a jewelery cleaner, especially when I don't really have jewelery.


Thu Jul 30, 2009 4:57 am
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Post Re: Homemade Lypo C
Owen or Ralph could better advise you on that, i would say probably not, but to try and see what you can produce and learn along the way.


Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:06 am
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Post Re: Homemade Lypo C
You might try a pm to Steve Hickey?

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Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:16 am
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Post Re: Homemade Lypo C
I sent him a pm. I've read several of his books, and have shared them with several people. I don't know how active he is here, since he only has 6 posts credited to him, but I hope he responds.

I guess I might try to research what is actually the necessary ingredients to make this work. Would it be the frequency of the waves, the power of the source, a certain ratio of phospholipids to aquas solution, etc.

I was thinking, even if only 10% was converted, that would be a worthwhile endeavor, considering how great Levy says that form of C is compared to regular C.


Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:48 pm
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Post Re: Homemade Lypo C
Well, you may be on to an interesting business opportunity. If you can afford the same blood testing that Hickey/Saul report in the latest book, you can determine whether your liposomal vitamin C indeed works based on the blood concentrations achieved.

Unsure whether it is technically feasible at home, but I suspect this may be how the various companies who now have liposomal products do it. However, I am unsure of the testing they do. Very interesting idea.

If it works, there are MANY nutrients that could benefit from a liposomal approach.

I know from conversations with LivonLabs, that, at least in the past, the source of phospholipids that are appropriate was limited - at that time, only 2 companies, and one was in Germany.

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Sun Aug 02, 2009 5:28 am
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Post Re: Homemade Lypo C
thanks for the reply, Owen.

I wasn't really thinking about it as a business opportunity as much as a way for people to get the benefits of vitamin c that are reported to be superior to IV for less money.

Also, I don't know if blood concentrations are the best way to measure results. For example, Levy talks about Lypo being far superior to IV or oral preparations, but there is much less C being introduced into the body. So, blood test would indicate a lower concentration of C, even though efficacy would be much higher. I think a lower concentration in the blood would be preferable, since it could indicate that more C is getting into the actual cells where it is needed. I think that Gersham wrote something about analyzing blood test results and to make sure you understood what the results were actually telling you. One time I had a conversation with a Dr. that was showing me some supps, I think the brand was Usana, or something to that effect, and they had a vit C pill with 4 or 5 different types of ascorbate. Their graph showed that the C spiked higher on the graph and lasted longer than straight C when measuring blood plasma levels. I told him I would rather have the C in my cells than in my blood.

The bath sonification equipment went on sale (the jewelery cleaner), so I'm very tempted to go out and buy it. Again, I also don't know how feasible it would be. When looking, I know there are several companies that offer their services to create liposomal products and you just tell them what you want encapsulated. I suppose I would just have to experiment with it to see what is produced.

If I get it and start to play around with it, I'll be sure to post back. If anyone has any ideas as how to go about creating the liposomal C or on testing, you input would be appreciated.


Sun Aug 02, 2009 5:14 pm
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Post Re: Homemade Lypo C
Hi jaamzg,

thanks for keeping us update on your experiment. A jewelery cleaner would be on sale here too. Only:

jaamzg wrote:
To purchase some liquid phospholipids at the local health store, ...

... seems not that easy. Asked in a few pharmacies, and no one would have liposomes to sell, so far.

jaamzg wrote:
When looking, I know there are several companies that offer their services to create liposomal products and you just tell them what you want encapsulated. I suppose I would just have to experiment with it to see what is produced.

...letting a company experiment for you would certainly become much more expensive than lypo C itself.

I'll keep on searching for a small scale liposomes dealer..

Regards..


Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:53 am
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Post Re: Homemade Lypo C
jaamzg wrote:
I think a lower concentration in the blood would be preferable, since it could indicate that more C is getting into the actual cells where it is needed.
Unless for specialized tissues I think the concentration in the tissues are proportional to the concentration in the blood. In other words, I think that in general the higher the blood concentration, the higher you can expect the tissue concentration to be.

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Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:12 am
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Post Re: Homemade Lypo C
jaamzg wrote:
thanks for the reply, Owen.

Also, I don't know if blood concentrations are the best way to measure results. For example, Levy talks about Lypo being far superior to IV or oral preparations, but there is much less C being introduced into the body. So, blood test would indicate a lower concentration of C, even though efficacy would be much higher. I think a lower concentration in the blood would be preferable, since it could indicate that more C is getting into the actual cells where it is needed. I think that Gersham wrote something about analyzing blood test results and to make sure you understood what the results were actually telling you. One time I had a conversation with a Dr. that was showing me some supps, I think the brand was Usana, or something to that effect, and they had a vit C pill with 4 or 5 different types of ascorbate. Their graph showed that the C spiked higher on the graph and lasted longer than straight C when measuring blood plasma levels. I told him I would rather have the C in my cells than in my blood.



Interesting point, I was thinking of a graph in the new Hickey/Saul book VITAMIN C: The Real Story, which clearly show blood concentrations of vitamin C to be higher after liposomal administration, and sustained, almost like an IV. The graph sticks in your mind, because they also have a graph of ordinary oral ascorbic acid and much lower levels. And while I too have seen Dr. Levy's video at livonlabs.com (but not read the additional chapter on liposomes added to CURING THE INCURABLE - yet) where he thinks the liposomes assist the vitamin C in entering cells, I remember reading earlier Livon material which claims the liposomes carry the ascorbate to the liver, where it is then "released" into the blood, as it would be if our GLO defect were corrected.

Clearly something does not add up. If it is released from the liposomal encapsulation in the liver, then the blood measurements make more sense (I'm not even sure they could accurately measure vitamin C within liposomes?)

In any case, if you are making your own, you want assurance that ascorbate is not damaged and exists encapsulated within the liposomes, no matter how it works.

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Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:29 am
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Post Re: Homemade Lypo C
Hi everyone,

Pamojja,

I think the reason you can't find it is because they don't market it as Liposomal product. It turns out to be Lecithin, which has the components of Phosphatidyl. This is what arranges itself to make the bubbles that encapsulate the product. The bubbles are what are called liposomes, so that's why you won't find it under that name.

Joiv,

I agree, I think you would expect higher tissue concentrations with higher blood concentrations, assuming that the C was traveling into the tissue. As an analogy, a diabetic with high blood sugar levels has lots of glucose in the blood, but the problem is the cells are not allowing it to enter. It could be because they are saturated, or it could be because they are resistant. But that brings us to the basic question, is the C concentration in the blood higher because the cells are full or is it because the cells are not accepting the C.

Owen,

Yes, that's where I was getting confused. I haven't seen the graphs, but I still find it hard to fathom that one gram of lypo C can boost plasma C levels to that of a 25 gram IV. Mathematically, it doesn't make sense. Unless the liver is converting glucose to C based on the intake of the lypo C. But that seems very far fetched to me. At any rate, I am going to blindly assume that the what Levy has said is true and that Lypo C is superior to IV C and have faith in what you are saying with regards to Hicky/Saul and that Lypo C concentrations when ingested orally are indeed as high as IV C. So, then...on with discussion (or mini-novel, however you want to see it.)

Well, I went out and bought the ultrasonic cleaner yesterday

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/D ... mber=95563

It was about $64 with tax. Then I went and bought some liquid Lecithin at the local health food store, for about $6, this is what I bought.

http://www.nowfoods.com/Products/Produc ... 003823.htm

The product label says it is 15% Phosphatidyl Choline, which is the predominant form of phosphatidyl in the product.

The Liveon website states "LivOn Labs adds a mixture of "essential phospholipids" - predominately phosphatidylcholine - to pharmaceutical-quality ascorbic acid."

http://www.livonlabs.com/cgi-bin/htmlos ... 4017925865

Is this the same base material? I don't know nor would I have any idea of finding out short of calling Liveon and asking, but I somehow assume they wouldn't tell me.

Anyway, on to the experiment.....

A few years ago a friend of mine gave me for my birthday a drink mixing set for making adult beverages...It was a science themed set and came with test tubes, a test tube rack and a glass stir rod. I finally got use it today!

I first started with filling the Ultrasonic Cleaner (UC) half way with water. I then put about a half teaspoon of pure AA into a test tube and then added a little more than double that volume in distilled water. I proceeded to mix and mix and mix with the little glass stir rod to dissolve the AA as completely as possible, but wasn't making a whole lot of progress. I then decided to see what would happen if I put the test tube in the UC. Wouldn't you know it, the sound waves proceeded to dissolve the AA crystals into the water. 30 seconds later, the water was totally clear!

So, it appears that UC waves will, at the very least, dissolve AA into water which I believe indicates that it will perform a rudimentary type of mixing which is more efficient than actually physically stirring.

Phase 2, add the liquid lecithin (LL). This stuff is thick, it's about the consistency of honey, but a little darker and very sticky. At first, I added about an equal amount of the LL to the test tube with the dissolved AA. It stayed very much separated from the water and was just floating on top with no signs of emulsification. The next thing I did was place the test tube in the UC. I watched and started to see a white cloud come off the LL and flow into the water. I let it sit for about 2 minutes and the cloud grew some, but the LL and the water were still basically two separate items.

Step number next. I began to stir the the ingredients with the stir rod while holding it in the UC bath. The ingredients began to mix and at the very least the LL began to emulsify into the water. However, after about 3 or 4 minutes, the best I could get was a mixture that was very clumpy with LL globs and a liquid portion was somewhat orangy yellow.

It seemed there was not enough liquid water in the mixture since it was remaining very thick. In a second test tube, I made another batch of AA with distilled water, again with about a half teaspoon of AA, placing it in the UC until the AA was completely dissolved. I added this to the first test tube which then gave me a test tube that was about 2/3 full by volume. I then proceeded to place this in the UC and mix. the mixture became much more liquid and the LL clumps began to dissolve very nicely (though not totally). I thought that it may be to much mixture for the amount of energy being put out by the UC and moved some of the liquid back to the second test tube.

The second test tube was now about 1/3 full and I placed this in the UC and began to stir. It did continue to make a more uniform liquid, though there were still some small clumps of LL. My rough estimation is that the current mixture is 2 parts AA dissolved in water to 1 part LL. I may try 3 parts AA in water to 1 part LL later.

The result is that the mixture, while being stirred and in the UC bath became a medium orange/yellow color. I have since set aside the test tubes and covered them to keep the contents from oxidizing. I observed that there seemed to be a slight separation of a light yellow less dense looking liquid that settled to the bottom and a slightly darker yellow orange thicker liquid moving to the top. I am going to let it sit for a few hours to see if there is more separation.

Here is the question...was liposomal encapsulated AA created or was the LL emulsified into the water? The problem is I don't have a way to test this. The only think that comes to mind right now is that when tasting the product, it should taste a lot less acidic than would be expected of regular AA. Of course, diluting AA in oil, I would expect it to taste less acidic. The only other option would be a blood test to see what the AA plasma level would be drinking the mix vs drinking AA in water. I don't know who would perform this or how much it would cost.

I'll write back later to let everyone know if the liquid separated out or not or remained somewhat homogenized.

James

EDIT: Maybe as another way to test the encapsulation, create a large batch, take about 10 grams at one time, and see if there is any GI distress. If the AA is in fact encapsulated, there should be no GI distress, right? Unless LL in a large portion will cause it. comments?

p.s. If I could post pictures, I would. Otherwise, maybe later, I'll try to video the process and post it on youtube.


Thu Aug 06, 2009 6:18 am
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Post Re: Homemade Lypo C
Interesting, not sure I understand totally, as I thought the commercial process used a screen and high pressures? But yes, if you know your tolerance, and how much C was in there to begin with, you might be able to make a crude assumption. Also, you might have a second test. I can tell when it has been more than 12 hours since my last vitamin C dosage, i.e., sinus starts acting up, perhaps a throat tickle, etc. You might wait for that point, then take the concoction, and see whether the normal symptoms of waning vitamin C are avoided?

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Fri Aug 07, 2009 3:12 am
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Post Re: Homemade Lypo C
What I know of the commercial process was just what was posted on the lypo c website, where they state they shoot the formula at a "special" metal plate at 1700psi. I'm guessing that there is an obvious amount of minimal energy required to break the lipids into small enough particles to then reform themselves.

Continuing with current crude observations... After leaving the concoction alone for about 48 hours, there was not much change. It basically separated into a white liquid that I would say had the appearance of skim milk, and floating on top of that, the lecithin oil that looked somewhat hydrolyzed as it was of an yellow orangy color.

I sampled the liquid portion and it was not as strong an acidic taste as would be expected, however, this could be from 1) the 48 hours the liquid was resting and the loss of strength in the vit c 2) the encapsulation process worked to some degree and there was less vit c present outside the lyposomal capsules 3) the lecithin was homogenized into the water and coated the tongue to a degree and reduced the strength of the flavor of the vit c.

I didn't keep accurate track of the amount of C in each test tube, but I did try two different amounts. One was about 2/3 of the volume of the test tube, which I would guesstimate to be about 4 grams of c, the other was closer to 1/3 of the test tube which I would guesstimate to be closer to about 2 grams. After taking the larger dose, I did feel a small surge of energy that I don't usually get with a 4 gram dose, but that is a very subjective observation. The smaller dose did not give me a surge nor did I feel anything else. Neither doses produced any GI problems, but I generally don't have any GI issues with 4 gram doses.

Success or failure? I don't really know. I think I read that one of the problems with lipo formation with sonification was that they only got about 10% of the product to encapsulate. Did I get 10%? I have no clue.

I have been thinking about heating the solution to help emulsify the lecithin, but I don't know at what temperature vitamin c becomes damaged/deactivated. Can someone help me with that?

thanks
james


Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:16 am
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Post Re: Homemade Lypo C
jaamzg wrote:
I have been thinking about heating the solution to help emulsify the lecithin, but I don't know at what temperature vitamin c becomes damaged/deactivated. Can someone help me with that?

Only have the very general information that cooking vegetables will decrease Vitamin C content by 42%, and steaming for 18 percent.

Regards..


Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:43 am
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