It is currently Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:15 am




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 31 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
 IV C vs Oral and Lypo for Cancer 
Author Message
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 2:07 pm
Posts: 195
Post IV C vs Oral and Lypo for Cancer
Thought I'd share this interesting tidbit from an
interview with a doc trained by Riordan in IV vitamin c.
They are talking about how vitamin c has to be in the extra cellular
spaces to kill cancer cells...

"We've shown this in our research studies, both cell tissue animal and we're starting to
appreciate this now in human research. But what happens is the oral vitamin c, because it's a
vitamin and is taken orally, its tightly controlled. So no matter how much you take you can
only absorb a minimal amount in the blood stream, but with IV vitamin c you bypass that tight
control and you get a high spike in the blood stream and thats what pushes it over into the
extra cellular space and we have shown that you cannot get that spike of vitamin c in the
extra cellular space with oral vitamin c. I don't care what the liposomal vitamin c people
say, you cannot get it in the extracellular space"


full interview here:
http://www.drhoffman.com/podcasts/channel-1/drhoffman-com-2014-01-08-128.mp3

_________________
Even a Blind Squirrel makes his own vitamin C.


Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:54 pm
Profile
Vitamin C Master
Vitamin C Master

Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:03 am
Posts: 273
Location: Canada
Post Re: IV C vs Oral and Lypo for Cancer
Dr. Drisko seems very adamant that plasma levels of liposomal C cannot reach the levels of IV C that are necessary to get it into interstitial areas and so have anti-cancer effects. She does not mention how she came to this conclusion. She does mention that oral supplementation can only result in uM levels whereas IV C reaches mM levels, so a full order of magnitude more. Someone needs to measure levels achievable via liposomal supplementation?

EDIT: There is some research done here http://www.livonlabs.com/proof/Dr_Hickey_Clinical_Study_Published.pdf

_________________
'Always' and 'never' are 2 words you should always remember never to use.


Fri Jan 24, 2014 11:12 am
Profile
Vitamin C Expert
Vitamin C Expert

Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:47 pm
Posts: 474
Location: Portland, OR [previously posted as davids]
Post Re: IV C vs Oral and Lypo for Cancer
I have always assumed that all of these assertions about what was, and was not, possible with oral ascorbic acid, had to do with what the "average" person was able to ingest, i.e. what the average person's daily Bowel Tolerance was, e.g. 10 to 20 grams. That was, in fact, where my Bowel Tolerance began 20 years ago.

I wonder what is happening to/with the 75 to 100 grams of ascorbic acid that I [am (now) able to] ingest daily? I have always assumed that my blood and tissue [and interstitial/extra cellular fluid, etc.] ascorbate levels were commensurately higher, but who knows? Maybe I am so toxic [from the root canals and mercury fillings (and/or other things)] that my levels are no higher [or actually lower] than anyone elses. I can only say that I feel so well all of the time, that I have a very hard time believing that!

Just my "two cents worth,"

David

_________________
JFYI, I have ingested a Bowel Tolerance dose of ascorbic acid [via one gram tablets], in HEALTH, not illness [of which I have had virtually none], basically every day since 1994, amounting to [currently], on average, 75+ grams [daily], in 10 to 15 divided doses.


Fri Jan 24, 2014 5:39 pm
Profile
Vitamin C Master
Vitamin C Master

Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:03 am
Posts: 273
Location: Canada
Post Re: IV C vs Oral and Lypo for Cancer
Yes David, I think I am coming to the conclusion that oral AA (not necessarily lipo) is really good at prevention/mediation of illness but not as an active therapeutic treatment - it seems you need to go the IV route for that. However, I would still like to see how high plasma levels can be pushed to with lipo C - like taking 1 gram per 1/2 hr all through the day. Who knows, perhaps one could reach 1000 uM but it will be costly - like $20-30/day. Still it would be worth it to fight cancer.

_________________
'Always' and 'never' are 2 words you should always remember never to use.


Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:32 pm
Profile
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 2:07 pm
Posts: 195
Post Re: IV C vs Oral and Lypo for Cancer
tjohnson_nb wrote:
I would still like to see how high plasma levels can be pushed to with lipo C - like taking 1 gram per 1/2 hr all through the day.


Since hydrogen peroxide can only be produced in the extracellular space (not blood vessels)
It sounds like you could never duplicate the IV C effect using any amount of lipo c, since lipo c is intracellular,
so the vitamin c is only released when the liposome enters the cell.

_________________
Even a Blind Squirrel makes his own vitamin C.


Fri Jan 24, 2014 11:01 pm
Profile
Vitamin C Master
Vitamin C Master

Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:03 am
Posts: 273
Location: Canada
Post Re: IV C vs Oral and Lypo for Cancer
Saw wrote:

Since hydrogen peroxide can only be produced in the extracellular space (not blood vessels)
It sounds like you could never duplicate the IV C effect using any amount of lipo c, since lipo c is intracellular,
so the vitamin c is only released when the liposome enters the cell.


I thought I read that the liposomes are transported to the liver, where the ascorbate is released into the bloodstream.

_________________
'Always' and 'never' are 2 words you should always remember never to use.


Fri Jan 24, 2014 11:32 pm
Profile
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:24 am
Posts: 139
Post Re: IV C vs Oral and Lypo for Cancer
tjohnson_nb wrote:
Saw wrote:

Since hydrogen peroxide can only be produced in the extracellular space (not blood vessels)
It sounds like you could never duplicate the IV C effect using any amount of lipo c, since lipo c is intracellular,
so the vitamin c is only released when the liposome enters the cell.


I thought I read that the liposomes are transported to the liver, where the ascorbate is released into the bloodstream.


I thought the whole point of liposomes was to be small enough to enter the bloodstream through the stomach and intestinal walls and from there, their liposomal encapsulation allows them to fuse with cell membranes and deliver the payload to the heart of the cell, any cell, not just the liver.


Sat Jan 25, 2014 6:58 am
Profile
Vitamin C Master
Vitamin C Master

Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:03 am
Posts: 273
Location: Canada
Post Re: IV C vs Oral and Lypo for Cancer
From Hickey et al. Emphasis mine.

Quote:
The similarity in the plasma response curves for liposomal vitamin C and the standard
commercial formulation, shown in Figure 1 (5 g doses), is interesting. There is a hint that
the liposomal form has a slower onset to peak level and a broader profile. Liposomes are
absorbed from the gut and into the liver, before being released into the blood stream.
This
response can be seen more clearly in the 20 g dose, in Figure 2. It is apparent that sustained
levels of plasma ascorbate, above the previously assumed maximum of 220 mM L21, are
possible with oral intakes of liposomal vitamin C.


I don't know if this means that the ascorbate is 'un-encapsulated' in the liver or what?

However, in this document http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1818087613000135, it says;

Quote:
The lymphatic system that extends throughout the whole body is one of useful targets for efficient drug delivery. The intestinal lymphatic drug delivery has been actively studied to date because administered drugs can avoid the first-pass metabolism in the liver, resulting in improvement of oral bioavailability. Drugs must be hydrophobic in order to be transported into the intestinal lymphatics because the lipid absorption mechanism in the intestine is involved in the lymphatic delivery. Therefore, various lipid-based drug carrier systems have been recently utilized to increase the transport of drug into the intestinal lymphatics. Lipidic molecules of the lipid-based drug delivery systems stimulate production of chylomicrons in the enterocytes, resulting in an increase in drug transport into lymphatic in the enterocytes. This review summarizes recently reported information on development of liposomal carriers for the intestinal lymphatic delivery and covers important determinants for successful lymphatic delivery.


So, I am a bit confused.

_________________
'Always' and 'never' are 2 words you should always remember never to use.


Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:28 am
Profile
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:24 am
Posts: 139
Post Re: IV C vs Oral and Lypo for Cancer
tjohnson_nb wrote:
From Hickey et al. Emphasis mine.

Quote:
The similarity in the plasma response curves for liposomal vitamin C and the standard
commercial formulation, shown in Figure 1 (5 g doses), is interesting. There is a hint that
the liposomal form has a slower onset to peak level and a broader profile. Liposomes are
absorbed from the gut and into the liver, before being released into the blood stream.
This
response can be seen more clearly in the 20 g dose, in Figure 2. It is apparent that sustained
levels of plasma ascorbate, above the previously assumed maximum of 220 mM L21, are
possible with oral intakes of liposomal vitamin C.


I don't know if this means that the ascorbate is 'un-encapsulated' in the liver or what?

However, in this document http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1818087613000135, it says;

Quote:
The lymphatic system that extends throughout the whole body is one of useful targets for efficient drug delivery. The intestinal lymphatic drug delivery has been actively studied to date because administered drugs can avoid the first-pass metabolism in the liver, resulting in improvement of oral bioavailability. Drugs must be hydrophobic in order to be transported into the intestinal lymphatics because the lipid absorption mechanism in the intestine is involved in the lymphatic delivery. Therefore, various lipid-based drug carrier systems have been recently utilized to increase the transport of drug into the intestinal lymphatics. Lipidic molecules of the lipid-based drug delivery systems stimulate production of chylomicrons in the enterocytes, resulting in an increase in drug transport into lymphatic in the enterocytes. This review summarizes recently reported information on development of liposomal carriers for the intestinal lymphatic delivery and covers important determinants for successful lymphatic delivery.


So, I am a bit confused.


By default anything thats "digested" goes through the liver before it hits the bloodstream. This has caused problems for the delivery of many drugs over the years because the liver as part of its job destroys these chemicals. To get around this many drugs have to be altered to survive this first liver pass, however the chemical alteration is often times very hard on the liver and is still only marginally effective at getting the drug into the blood stream. Lipid based drugs (ie liposomes) allow the drug to be delivered right through the lining of the stomach/intestines and by and large bypass the first liver pass.


Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:42 am
Profile
Vitamin C Master
Vitamin C Master

Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:03 am
Posts: 273
Location: Canada
Post Re: IV C vs Oral and Lypo for Cancer
exitium wrote:

By default anything thats "digested" goes through the liver before it hits the bloodstream. This has caused problems for the delivery of many drugs over the years because the liver as part of its job destroys these chemicals. To get around this many drugs have to be altered to survive this first liver pass, however the chemical alteration is often times very hard on the liver and is still only marginally effective at getting the drug into the blood stream. Lipid based drugs (ie liposomes) allow the drug to be delivered right through the lining of the stomach/intestines and by and large bypass the first liver pass.

Then I find it odd that Hickey et al said what they did - it seems to imply the opposite.

_________________
'Always' and 'never' are 2 words you should always remember never to use.


Sat Jan 25, 2014 11:50 am
Profile
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:24 am
Posts: 139
Post Re: IV C vs Oral and Lypo for Cancer
tjohnson_nb wrote:
exitium wrote:

By default anything thats "digested" goes through the liver before it hits the bloodstream. This has caused problems for the delivery of many drugs over the years because the liver as part of its job destroys these chemicals. To get around this many drugs have to be altered to survive this first liver pass, however the chemical alteration is often times very hard on the liver and is still only marginally effective at getting the drug into the blood stream. Lipid based drugs (ie liposomes) allow the drug to be delivered right through the lining of the stomach/intestines and by and large bypass the first liver pass.

Then I find it odd that Hickey et al said what they did - it seems to imply the opposite.


Not really. They stated "Drugs must be hydrophobic in order to be transported into the intestinal lymphatics", oils and fats are generally considered hydrophobic so a liposome would generally fall into the hydrophobic category and hence be able to bypass the liver.


Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:03 pm
Profile
Vitamin C Master
Vitamin C Master

Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:03 am
Posts: 273
Location: Canada
Post Re: IV C vs Oral and Lypo for Cancer
Please see this again, I think you misunderstand.
http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=34955#p34955

The first paragragh is from Hickey et al, the 2nd is from the sciencedirect site.

_________________
'Always' and 'never' are 2 words you should always remember never to use.


Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:03 pm
Profile
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:24 am
Posts: 139
Post Re: IV C vs Oral and Lypo for Cancer
tjohnson_nb wrote:
Please see this again, I think you misunderstand.
http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=34955#p34955

The first paragragh is from Hickey et al, the 2nd is from the sciencedirect site.


My apologies, I did misunderstand and you do bring up a good point. I think the key is to better understand the measurement technique to see if applies equally to raw ascorbate as well as liposomal. If both forms have the same effect on the test medium then at least we would know that the liver didnt necessarily unencapsulate the ascorbate.

"The technique depends on reduction of ferric to ferrous ions by ascorbate, which is simultaneously converted to dehydroascorbate"

I was under the impression the benefit of liposomal was that the encapsulated ascobate was much more readily taken up by the cells in the body so if the liver removed the encapsulation then it would seem to defeat that purpose and the encapsulation was only beneficial to get the ascorbate past the liver.


Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:50 pm
Profile
Vitamin C Master
Vitamin C Master

Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:03 am
Posts: 273
Location: Canada
Post Re: IV C vs Oral and Lypo for Cancer
exitium wrote:

My apologies, I did misunderstand and you do bring up a good point. I think the key is to better understand the measurement technique to see if applies equally to raw ascorbate as well as liposomal. If both forms have the same effect on the test medium then at least we would know that the liver didnt necessarily unencapsulate the ascorbate.

"The technique depends on reduction of ferric to ferrous ions by ascorbate, which is simultaneously converted to dehydroascorbate"

I was under the impression the benefit of liposomal was that the encapsulated ascobate was much more readily taken up by the cells in the body so if the liver removed the encapsulation then it would seem to defeat that purpose and the encapsulation was only beneficial to get the ascorbate past the liver.

Yes I was also wondering how they measure ascorbate if it is still in a liposome in the bloodstream. Maybe someone who knows more physiology here can tell us. :)

_________________
'Always' and 'never' are 2 words you should always remember never to use.


Sat Jan 25, 2014 11:17 pm
Profile
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:24 am
Posts: 139
Post Re: IV C vs Oral and Lypo for Cancer
tjohnson_nb wrote:
exitium wrote:

My apologies, I did misunderstand and you do bring up a good point. I think the key is to better understand the measurement technique to see if applies equally to raw ascorbate as well as liposomal. If both forms have the same effect on the test medium then at least we would know that the liver didnt necessarily unencapsulate the ascorbate.

"The technique depends on reduction of ferric to ferrous ions by ascorbate, which is simultaneously converted to dehydroascorbate"

I was under the impression the benefit of liposomal was that the encapsulated ascobate was much more readily taken up by the cells in the body so if the liver removed the encapsulation then it would seem to defeat that purpose and the encapsulation was only beneficial to get the ascorbate past the liver.

Yes I was also wondering how they measure ascorbate if it is still in a liposome in the bloodstream. Maybe someone who knows more physiology here can tell us. :)


In Levys book, Curing the incurable, he seems to indicate liposomal products make it to the blood and lymph intact and still in lypo form. So the test used in your above link must somehow pull the vc out of the liposome.


Sun Jan 26, 2014 6:42 am
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 31 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group.
Designed by Vjacheslav Trushkin for Free Forums/DivisionCore.