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 New Livon Related Vitamin C Product?? 
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Post New Livon Related Vitamin C Product??
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/altrient-ceo-all-vitamin-c-is-not-created-equal-2012-04-17

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Sat Apr 21, 2012 4:37 am
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Post Re: New Livon Related Vitamin C Product??
Quote:
Most people don't know that the majority of the 'ordinary' vitamin C you get from your diet and from supplements is degraded or destroyed by the harsh digestive juices in the stomach,"

This is so untrue, its even opposite. Vitamin C doesn't work good when pH is rising. That is one of the reasons why H. Pylori people have diminished vitamin C content in gastric juice.

Shameful propaganda. Shows that you can really expect the same thing from both side of the front.


Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:25 am
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Post Re: New Livon Related Vitamin C Product??
M-,
Again, I am lost and confused by your comments?

Experts estimate that up to 50% (Pauling) of the ordinary vitamin C ingested orally is destroyed during the digestive process . I think that is all this wording is trying to say - that liposomal encapsulated C is protected and more bioavailable.

The details about acidity in the stomach, or whatever, miss the point.

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Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:31 am
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Post Re: New Livon Related Vitamin C Product??
Devil is in the details.

100% of Vitamin C is absorbed at smaller doses and that progressively goes down for larger doses (even tho this is still not settled for sure IMO, nobody measured megadosers for a longer time AFAIK). The same is true for majority of micronutrientes (probably all).

"During the digestive process" is different thing then "being destroyed by stomach acid". Higher gastric pH is detrimental to vitamin C function. So what they claim is nonsense.

Lost during digestion mean several things: vitamin C stolen by microflora (is this lost? depends which microbiota stills it), vitamin C taken by immune system in the gut (clearly not lost), vitamin C that neutralises toxins in the gut (clearly not lost), vitamin C that surpass transport capabilities and appears in stool (lost indeed) and so on.


Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:58 am
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Post Re: New Livon Related Vitamin C Product??
M-, I will admit that your posts are intellectually stimulating, because they always contain information that I have never heard before.

Quote:
100% of Vitamin C is absorbed at smaller doses



The same amount of vitamin C is absorbed. When you take more, less is absorbed,
but I have never before heard the claim that 100% is absorbed.

I don't understand your pH argument. Acid in the stomach promotes vitamin C transport through the stomach lining into the blood stream. Ref: Hickey and Robert's book THE RIDICULOUS DIETARY ALLOWANCE.

All they are trying to point out is that liposomes (or aloe vera, or kiwi gel, etc.) can protect the vitamin from breaking down (usually in the presence of carbohydrates) and more if it will enter the blood stream. You disagree with their assertion?

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Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:58 am
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Post Re: New Livon Related Vitamin C Product??
Quote:
Experts estimate that up to 50% (Pauling) of the ordinary vitamin C ingested orally is destroyed during the digestive process


Quote:
From Livon site: 98% of a 20 mg oral dose of [non-liposome-encapsulated] vitamin C is bioavailable (enters the bloodstream) whereas only 16% of a 12,000 mg dose does so.


So at 20 mg dose only 2% is destroyed by digestive process. And destruction % increases with dose size. Is this what your saying?

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Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:08 pm
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Post Re: New Livon Related Vitamin C Product??
Indeed, here is another reference:

Mandl, J., A. Szarka, and G. Bánhegyi. “Vitamin C: Update on Physiology and Pharmacology.” British Journal of Pharmacology 157, no. 7 (August 1, 2009): 1097–1110.

Quote:
Accordingly, the maximum bioavailability of vitamin C is usually attained at lower doses and declines with the eleva-tion of oral supplements: 87% for 30 mg, 80% for 100 mg, 72% for 200 mg, 63% for 500 mg and less than 50% for 1250 mg (Levineet al., 1996; Graumlich et al., 1997).


So we need to define what 'lost' means before we adopt pseudo-scientific claims.

Quote:
I don't understand your pH argument. Acid in the stomach promotes vitamin C transport through the stomach lining into the blood stream. Ref: Hickey and Robert's book THE RIDICULOUS DIETARY ALLOWANCE.

I don't have time to post you references, but more basic environment disables vitamin C before it enters the small intestines where it is absorbed. This is also probably one of the reasons antacids and ppis diminish vitamin C status (and h pylori which is antacid itself).


Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:03 pm
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Post Re: New Livon Related Vitamin C Product??
You will note that these numbers are based on the Levine work, arguing for a 200mg/day RDA.

Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA
Vol. 93, pp. 3704-3709, April 1996
Medical Sciences
Vitamin C pharmacokinetics in healthy volunteers: Evidence for a
recommended dietary allowance

This contains a number of assertions which our collective experience questions:

"Based on our new data, recent urinary
excretion findings (36, 37), and Institute of Medicine criteria
(1, 2, 9), upper safe doses of vitamin C are <1000 mg daily in
healthy people. We do not recommend higher doses because
there is no clear benefit of excess excreted or unabsorbed
vitamin C, plasma concentrations were near saturation at 400
mg daily, and there may be adverse consequences at doses
>1000 mg."
Not in my experience, nor that of any other proponent of high dose VC, from Klenner onwards.

This concluding statement:
"Bioavailability of the 200-mg dose was complete when
calculated by using the linear trapezoidal method (30, 31).
Although bioavailability was also probably complete at lower
doses, it could not be determined precisely."
Seems to me to contradict the statement that has been quoted, claimed as derived from this work.

This above paper is the predecessor to the one claiming maximum levels of VC obtainable with any oral dose:
Vitamin C Pharmacokinetics: Implications for Oral and Intravenous Use
Annals of Internal Medicine, 6 April 2004 | Volume 140 Issue 7 | Pages 533-537
This is the often quoted source stated as having "proved" that plasma vitamin C concentrations of 220 µmol/L ARE the maximum possible. However, they DID NOT PROVE THAT.
"Vitamin C at a dose of 1.25 g administered orally produced mean (±sd) peak plasma concentrations of 134.8 ± 20.6 µmol/L " IE, Measured
"For the maximum tolerated oral dose of 3 g every 4 hours," Not necessarily true, in my or other experience. Everybody on this board who has taken more, and more often, raise thy paws.
" pharmacokinetic modeling predicted peak plasma vitamin C concentrations of 220 µmol/L" IE, yet ANOTHER VOODOO calculation. Irwin Stone reported a cancer patient - getting better on VC - measured at 350. There are guinea pig experiments in that range.

It appears to me that Dr Levine is not antagonistic to vitamin C, but is trying, over time, to build an unassailable foundation for its correct use. Since his careful work IS contrary to collective experience, and also to some animal studies, I suspect that the observed dissonance is a result of the following:
"...we conducted vitamin C depletion-repletion pharmacokinetic studies in seven healthy inpatient volunteers by using seven doses from 30 to 2500 mg."
"The findings here are for seven healthy men under age 27. Vitamin C pharmacokinetics
are incomplete for women, ill patients, smokers, and the elderly."

The young "healthy" men were in a hospital for near 6 months, volunteers presumably being paid, totally unstressed, not ill and having been thoroughly checked for any problem. It might be that under those conditions, 200mg/day IS adequate and saturating. However, I doubt you can find any actual human beings living in the real world who are in that state. It certainly is not the case for ANYBODY I know.

I think the clue here is that the body is way smarter than the current collective mind, and can and does utilize vastly larger amounts of vitamin C and likely a whole bunch of other stuff, if available and needed.

FRM


Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:54 pm
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Post Re: New Livon Related Vitamin C Product??
Yes, that seems right. BUT, we are talking here about plasma saturation, no matter how meaningless it is.
Plasma is notoriously bad way of diagnosing body needs or status of different micronutrients.

In anyway, that is all not important. What is important is the folks in original article want to sell, and thats all to it. I see such behavior as detrimental to community and public acceptance of vitamin C.


Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:23 pm
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Post Re: New Livon Related Vitamin C Product??
http://www.annals.org/content/140/7/I-61.full
How Vitamin C Is Administered Affects How Much Reaches the Bloodstream and May Affect the Results of Studies of Its Potential Effect on Cancer

Quote:
They found that intravenous doses of vitamin C could produce blood levels about 70 times higher than those that could be achieved by the highest oral dose tolerated by humans

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Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:07 am
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Post Re: New Livon Related Vitamin C Product??
Owen-
True, that is a precis of the 2004 paper I quoted above.
I only quoted the oral results, since that was what this discussion involves, near as I can tell.
IV administration is another issue entirely.

Since you brought it up, not withstanding that it is OT, the statement you quote:
"intravenous doses of vitamin C could produce blood levels about 70 times higher than those that could be achieved by the highest oral dose tolerated by humans "
is based on the one I quoted:
"For the maximum tolerated oral dose of 3 g every 4 hours,"
Which we know is far from true for real people, at least under some conditions. It follows that both the "peak plasma vitamin C concentrations of 220 µmol/L" and the "70 times" figure are not necessarily true.
My goal in this particular path is to figure out if it really is possible to attain serious therapeutic levels orally, and the answer is yes, but it violates the Levine figures.

Ely "Ascorbic Acid and Glycohemoglobin in Humans and Mice
Data published in Clinical Chemistry and the New Zealand Medical Journal [N Z Med J 2002 Aug 23; 115(1160): http://www.nzma.org.nz/journal/115-1160/156], "
"Self-reported daily intake varied from 0 to 20 g/day. The plasma AA levels ranged from 11.4 to 517 µmol/L and correlated well with the reported intake. Regression analysis of their GHb and plasma AA values showed a statistically significant inverse association (e.g., each 30 µmole/L increase in plasma AA concentration resulted in a decrease of 0.1 in GHb). A 1 g oral dose of AA can raise plasma AA to 130 µmole/L within an hour and such doses at intervals of about 2 hours throughout the day can maintain ~230 µmole AA/L"

As I stated, I believe Levine is trying to build an unassailable case, and without calling out dolts like Moertel/Mayo. (This likely explains why he is a big cheese at NIH, and I never could be!)
"our data show that intravenous administration of vitamin C produces substantially higher plasma concentrations than can be achieved with oral administration of vitamin C. This difference was previously unrecognized and may have treatment implications"
This second part is a pretty amazing statement, given that Klenner said just that, 50 or 60 years previous. So did Pauling, in the very argument under discussion, that between Cameron/Pauling and Moertel/Mayo. Dr HD Riordan was on the team that produced the paper, and he certainly knew this.

My goal in this last is to figure out why it is that apparently diligent, competent, and honest men (Levine) cannot seem to grasp and add to the simple observations of Klenner etc.

FRM


Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:09 am
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Post Re: New Livon Related Vitamin C Product??
Levine (or a colleague) once called me on the phone asking the Vitamin C Foundation for funding! (True story). So they may be working at NIH - but they are obviously not getting funding.

I wanted to emphasize the difference between IV and oral intakes because claims from the liposomal folks are that blood levels are higher than oral, more like an IV. After all, that is what started this topic. It would be interesting to find a similar study using liposomal vitamin C, and I suspect from personal experience, that Lypo-C blood levels are quite high.

And there is always the renal expulsion. The kidneys are constantly working to keep the blood level under 1.5 mg/dl (or the equivalent of about 84 nmol/l??) So time of measurement is important. If Hickey/Roberts is right, some/much of ascorbic acid enters the blood stream quickly through the stomach lining (depending on the acidity of the stomach.) Sodium ascorbate wouldn't necessarily make it to the blood stream until it entered the small intestine... There are a lot of variables.

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Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:24 am
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Post Re: New Livon Related Vitamin C Product??
Quote:
The kidneys are constantly working to keep the blood level under 1.5 mg/dl (or the equivalent of about 84 nmol/l??)

I don't think this statement represents how this works in reality.
The kidneys, I believe (I might be wrong), from the literature I read, ARE NOT constantly working to excrete vitamin C. They are constantly working to keep blood levels above some treashold (somewhere about 70umol/l [not nmol]). The fact that vitamin C is lost in the urine is pure mass effect - its a small molecule, it can cross between cell junctions and if there is a lot of vitamin C, more of it will get into the loop of Henle where kidnies actually work to get it back via the SVCT1 receptor which has its limitations hence some of it still isn't returned back but gets into the urinary canal. Maybe some of this is by desing to protect bladder from the infections by acidifying urine.

http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/content/meeti ... 21/6/LB111


Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:57 am
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Post Re: New Livon Related Vitamin C Product??
majkinetor wrote:
Quote:
The kidneys are constantly working to keep the blood level under 1.5 mg/dl (or the equivalent of about 84 nmol/l??)

I don't think this statement represents how this works in reality.
The kidneys, I believe (I might be wrong), from the literature I read, ARE NOT constantly working to excrete vitamin C. They are constantly working to keep blood levels above some treashold (somewhere about 70umol/l [not nmol]). The fact that vitamin C is lost in the urine is pure mass effect - its a small molecule, it can cross between cell junctions and if there is a lot of vitamin C, more of it will get into the loop of Henle where kidnies actually work to get it back via the SVCT1 receptor which has its limitations hence some of it still isn't returned back but gets into the urinary canal. Maybe some of this is by desing to protect bladder from the infections by acidifying urine.

http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/content/meeti ... 21/6/LB111


I stand corrected about the umol unit.

However, I wish you would read Linus Pauling's HTLLAFB book before posting these comments, which seem to be all over the place. Linus spent a lot of time on the "expensive urine" argument and explains in great detail how the kidneys work. The kidney "pumps" recirculate substances back into the blood stream - including vitamin C. At some threshold, the capacity of the recirculation pumps is exceeded, and the substance is then excreted into the urine.

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Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:25 am
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Post Re: New Livon Related Vitamin C Product??
Thats what I said.


Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:30 am
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