Bioavailability of Vitamin C

[Johnwen]

[OxC]

[Johnwen]

[OxC]

[ofonorow]

I learned a lot from the ebook OxC. A great deal about DHA for example.

johnwen I accept that the acid-tablet rapidly breaks down - its the journey down the stomach, and out the intestines in 5 minutes that is suspect, so I decided to write Dr. Hickey asking him about his reference. (Principles of Drug Action)

Hi Owen,

Briefly:

Cell membranes allow very small, non-polar, and lipid soluble molecules to pass.

The stomach is (or should be) strongly acid (HCl).

Weak organic acids are thus driven by the strong acid into the associated and relatively non-polar state (i.e. H+ A- becomes HA).

Thus small weak organic acids are often absorbed well in the stomach. In other words it is quite possible that vit C is absorbed in the stomach - and the extent depends on how polar is the 'associated molecule' etc..

Try this link to a section in a toxicology book which gives more detail:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=hWDNBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA619&lpg=PA619&dq=absorption+of+weak+organic+acids+stomach&source=bl&ots=Es-VCyEbGA&sig=0hNy7ft6Ywm0nTQSyucgBiZoEnM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-SWUVbiYE4X8UqO7rjg&sqi=2&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=absorption%20of%20weak%20organic%20acids%20stomach&f=false

I hope the link works for you.

Steve

Unfortunately, the link does not work for me - johnwen?

[Johnwen]

959 Pages????????

Guess I know what I'll be doing this 4th of July!!!!

Have a good one TOO EVERYONE!

[Johnwen]

[ofonorow]

Today I had a 10 gram (11.3 grams of sodium ascorbate) infused intravenously in 40 minutes. We rotated through 3 Abbott-Labs FreeStyle Lite glucose meters (A, B and C).

I had to wait for the doctor's office to open - so fasting continued until 8:30 a.m. (No coffee... No meds... Just the glass of water at the first baseline).

I am posting this here because of the title - Bioavailability of Vitamin C. I may consolidate to a new post, or add to our Crude Measurements post.

Code: Select all

30 minutes prior to the IV we did baseline measurements from each meter

A   134 mg/dl
B   120 mg/dl
C   120 mg/dl

Then after the IV was hooked up, but prior to the drip we did another baseline.

A   124 mg/dl.



Code: Select all


The following are the measurements every minute

Meter      Minute        Reading
A             +1              147
  B           +2                   143
    C         +3                          143
A             +4             152
  B           +5                   146
    C         +6                          152
A             +7             159
  B           +8                   150
    C         +9                          162
A             +10           159
  B           +11                 164
    C         +12                        159
A             +13           168
  B           +14                 164
    C         +15                       174
A             +16          162
  B           +17                 167
    C         +18                       173
A             +19          179
  B           +20                 174
    C         +21                       178
A             +22          175
  B           +23                 187                     **   New Test Strips
    C         +24                       189
A             +25          187
  B           +26                 199
    C         +27                        191
A             +28          211
  B           +29                  207
    C         +30                        200
A             +31         207
  B           +32                  198
    C         +33                        210
A             +34         210
  B           +35                  199
    C         +36                        200
A             +37         197
  B           +38                  191
    C         +39                          194
A             +40         184                           ** stopped IV (had slowed down tube for the past few minutes)
  B            +41                 195
    C          +42                          178
A              +43         163
   B           +44                  181
    C          +45                          182
A              +46         183

Paused measurement
   B            +50                   177
   

      C         +54                          164


A               +58          167


   B            +80                  165         

Notes:

i. Don't try doing this alone. Another person has to load the meter with the test strip and write down the results, etc.
ii. We opened new test strips at minute 23 - all meters seemed to increase the score 10+ points with new test strips.
iii. The doc wanted us to continue for awhile after the drip - but we seemed to steady state at 165 mg/dl and I needed coffee, and my hydrocortisone and my lantus!

Tomorrow or the near future, I will take 10 grams of Ascorbic Acid by mouth and repeat the measurements... Ditto 11.3 grams of sodium ascorbate by mouth.. (Learning to live without morning coffee

[Johnwen]

all meters seemed to increase the score 10+ points with new test strips.

Have you ever calibrated your meters ???

http://www.freestylelitemanual.com/inde ... 47&lang=us

Control Solution is available for under $10 on Amazon and quite a few other places!

You should do this every time you use New test strips!

BTW! The fasting 120 start, looks Good!!! Given everything you went thru to get it there!

[OxC]

Today I had a 10 gram (11.3 grams of sodium ascorbate) infused intravenously in 40 minutes.

I am impressed and following this with much interest! Your data is fascinating. I hope you will describe which products you are using. And, not right now while you're so busy with this, but later on, maybe in a new thread, I hope you will describe your physical experience with an IV of vit C. I've never had one, and am curious as to any sensations you experienced (even mundane and probably expected things, like it made you need to pee). I'll bet others would like to read that too.

Thanks for the effort you are putting into this. I hope you did not have to suffer that many finger-pricks...there are blood drawing devices that go in the vein so that small frequent samples can be taken from just one poke, and I hope you had access to something like that!

[ofonorow]

Johnwen - I had used the control solution in the past - to check the sanity of my meter early on, but I did not know I could use it to "calibrate" (change?) the meter reading? In any case, I don't want to change the meters for the follow-on oral experiments. (I am out of test strips so these experiments will have to wait a few days.)

Experiment #1 - 10 grams of ultrafine ascorbic acid - all one gulp. Same measurements.

Experiment #2 - 250 mg of ultrafine ascorbic acid by mouth every minute. (This is to approximate the rate of intake of the IV/C. This is not something people would do, but it should make a comparison between oral and IV "bioavailability" easier.)

Follow-on - 11.3 grams of sodium ascorbate orally (since previous experience has shown this to be much less "interesting", I may not prick myself every minute.)

And I may see if I can pick up the liposomal in the blood, knowing that we have to wait about 2 hours to measure.

OxC - This was the first time I had an IV/C for reasons that weren't health related. And I was focused on the experiment. I did not notice anything during the fast drip. (I felt the need to urinate on the drive home). And it was a very small IV (10-really 11.3 grams in a small IV bag). In the past, around 2011, after I got out of the hospital and was trying to cure my "problem" with high dose intravenous vitamin C (before I figured out that the problem was a lack of cortisol output by my adrenal glands) I got up to 200,000 mg (200 grams) intravenously. Those IVs only provided temporary relief of symptoms.

The most outstanding aspect of those large IVs were their diagnostic ability to pin point areas of the body in, lets says, some distress or had some inflammation. The knowledge of this IV/C effect at 200 grams was first conveyed to us from "Mike" whose sister was mercury poisoned (The initial communication is documented in our archive: http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7563 ) Mike pointed out that parts of the body in trouble become noticeable towards the end of the large IV. In my case, I had gotten in the habit of sleeping on one side with my head on my arm, and I didn't even notice that the arm was "suffering" - until the first IV, when the arm began throbbing.

[Johnwen]

[ofonorow]

johnwen - thanks for the graph! (May I ask what tool you used?) And it shows when the IV bag emptied, and the drip started going down the tube - before the IV stopped.

And I will read your last post on the water, but at this point I am simply collecting data - not trying to determine the real numbers, (although I think we will be able to make a fairly accurate guess what the actual numbers are. We'll repeat the calibration we did during the CRUDE MEASUREMENTS with 90 mg of sugar in a deciliter of water, and 1.5 mg of ascorbic acid in a deciliter of water).

Linus Pauling said his own measurements showed that there was a 50% loss of vitamin C by mouth, and Cathcart mentions his belief (in the video lecture) that there is up to an 80% loss of vitamin C taken by mouth.

I am interested in seeing the graphs of the next two experiments (Waiting on more test strips).

In the meantime, it is the difference above the baseline (the delta) that we should probably graph. If my numbers (memory) are correct, and normal sugar is around 90 mg/dl and ascorbate is 1.5 mg/dl (maximum!) The IV/C experiment seems to show ascorbate going from say 2 mg/dl to around 90 mg/dl at the peak (211 high - 120 baseline). But as you point out, it is not 1 for 1, but we will determine the ratio.

Note: Last time (gulping ascorbic acid) there was this quick spike and drop off, making us think that insulin may have spiked. Maybe I simply am insulin resistant or not making enough insulin?

[OxC]

Note: Last time (gulping ascorbic acid) there was this quick spike and drop off, making us think that insulin may have spiked. Maybe I simply am insulin resistant or not making enough insulin?

There have been very few studies that have evaluated the effects of large doses of vitamin C, either IV or oral, on blood glucose levels. One case report suggested that large oral doses of AA (4500 mg) taken daily caused increased fasting blood glucose in one individual. But I've not found any published study that has ever measured the immediate blood glucose responses as you have done.

The quick spike and drop-off in blood glucose that you previously noted following a large oral dose is not consistent with the idea that your measurements reflect the amount of ascorbate in the bloodstream, because the spike occurred so much more rapidly than ascorbate usually appears in the blood, and because it dropped-off and stayed flat when you could expect actual increases of ascorbate in the blood. I think you are on the right track when you start thinking that the blood glucose measurements are actually reflecting true blood glucose. Whether such an increase is attributable to an effect on insulin, or there is some other explanation, you have demonstrated a phenomenon that I've never seen reported before.

Please note that the above paragraph is referring to your previous oral dose results, and not to your most recent IV results. The extremely high blood ascorbate levels that occur when ascorbate is given IV could very well interfere with your blood glucose meter sufficiently that these measurements do actually reflect the increased amount of ascorbate in the blood. If so, it will be difficult to convert that interference into accurate quantitative values. And the possibility that those measurements, in part or whole, are due to changes in blood glucose rather than blood ascorbate should not be ruled-out.

Again I admire your willingness to perform these experiments.

[Johnwen]