Another "newbe" with Lyme starting IV/C

Physician Reference and discussion of the methods, protocols and effects of intravenous vitamin C (versus oral or liposomal).

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Another "newbe" with Lyme starting IV/C

Post Number:#1  Post by ofonorow » Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:03 am

Dear Sir/Madam

I am scared to death and I hope you can help me.
My boyfriend has chronic lyme's disease and read about high doses of vitamin C IVs. We live in Ubud, Bali, Indonesia, have no money and no health insurance. He managed to get a vitamin c supplement (100% Sodium Ascorbate Powder) and an IV bag. He plans to put the vitamin C which is for oral use into the IV bag and I am simply scared to death. I was able to stop him once but I am afraid that he will do it one day without my knowledge. Can you please tell me how I can make sure that it is safe? We can't afford other options and I am sure that he will do it one day so if you can tell me how I can make sure that he will survive this I would highly appreciate it.

Thank you in advance.


Our standard response to questions/concerns like this:


Hi ...,

I wouldn't worry too much. He's more likely to be hurt by cheap IV equipment than the sodium ascorbate. Vitamin c itself might be the safest substance known as it has NO lethal dose that has been found.

I'm not the "expert" here at the Foundation, by the way, but I have heard more than the average layman in my time here, so I'll try to help.

If it is a decent sodium ascorbate then it is okay to use that way... thousands of people do it every day and Dr Cathcart thought it should be self sterilizing in a 50/50 mix with sterile water... and while it's prudent to be careful when putting anything into one's veins, there hasn't been a recorded death we know about, though there can be "Herxheimer" reactions that can be very unpleasant when the infections are addressed by the v-c and so a slow, very careful start is best.

We compiled some info about IVc under "Physician's Information" to the left on the home page... read up on it there and perhaps watch a Dr Cathcart video describing his methods.

BUT, our resident expert thinks that a steady oral intake of l-ascorbic acid (the standard oral form of v-c, NOT to be used in IVs) taken throughout the day to keep one's blood levels up is a fine way to approach it. Liposomal liquid v-c may be a nice adjunct as well... so IVC, while interesting for cancer and such, might not be necessary to treat Lyme... though I have spoken to many people who report that it does, indeed, help.

I recommend that you read through the discussion forums at the Foundation's webpage and do a onsite search to see what other Lyme patients report and their methods... there is some great info in the Forums...

So, relax... and learn about v-c as it is the one vitamin even healthy people should supplement as we simply don't get enough in modern diets. It cured me of chronic infections and I've heard many incredible stories about it.. . we even think most heart disease is directly caused by v-c deficiency... look up the Rath-Pauling Unified Theory of Heart Disease, for example.

regards!
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
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Re: Another "newbe" with Lyme starting IV/C

Post Number:#2  Post by ofonorow » Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:05 am

Assuming it is Lyme, we just posted a comprehensive answer to a similar question at our forum. Link below. Please note the links to various Lyme protocols/information at the bottom.
http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=12934

To assuage your fears about IV/C, here is a youtube lecture of Dr. Cathcart describing how to make make the stock sodium ascorbate solution for intravenous infusion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zgi-7xPrCAg&t=4s

The one thing to keep in mind is that this STOCK SOLUTION does not go into the vein undiluted.

Ths Stock Solution is added to sterile water in a 500 CC or 700 CC IV bag. Robert's advice
is good, and our local doc starts with a 10 gram IV/C. He has noticed that if a patient can tolerate 10 grams, they can then tolerate almost any higher dosage.

For a 10 Gram IV/C -- 20 CC of the Cathcart-style stock solution would be added to the IV bag

For a 50 Gram IV/C - 100 CC of the Cathcart-style stock solution would be added to a larger IV bag.

I notice that for 80 or higher IV/Cs, multiple bags are used..

Hope this helps.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
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Re: Another "newbe" with Lyme starting IV/C

Post Number:#3  Post by ofonorow » Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:11 am

Thank you very very much!!!

He was fine after the first one which was 20gram sodium ascorbate.

Yesterday we used 25gram calcium ascorbate and 15gram sodium ascorbate and he had a herxheimer. He threw up, had a headache, tasted metal in his mouth, fatigue, his skin felt like "being encased in rubber", sneezed a lot and had to pee 3 times during the IV.

Afterwards we got an Hotel room close to the clinic and he slept the whole day. After the IV the first thing his body was craving was yogurts and he ate two of them right away. When he woke up after sleeping at least 8 hours, he was craving chicken noodle soup and hot tea. He mentioned that his body wants fluids like soup and tea.

Today we are just doing 37.5 grams of sodium ascorbate and he just fell asleep during the IV. I hope today he will feel better. We are wondering if the Calcium Ascorbate could have triggered the herxheimer reaction. We are planning to do Calcium Ascorbate only tomorrow and see if that creates the herxheimer reaction again.

Again thank you very very much for your support. I am still a little bit nervous about it but he is still alive :)


Why Calcium Ascorbate ??? CA Asc is the one form of ascorbate we advise against, and since your concern was safety, why step out into uncharted territory? (Dr. Levy has even written another excellent vitamin C book entitled DEATH BY CALCIUM.) I'm sure some of the docs will chime in an explain why using Cacium Ascorbate is a bad idea! Most of the experience is with either a "buffered" ascorbic acid - commercial, or sodium ascorbate (Klenner/Cathcart.) One of our members has followed Italian research using Potassium Ascorbate IV. But most of the world experience is with sodium ascorbate, which is powerful and can cause substantial Herx-like reactions on its own.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
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Re: Another "newbe" with Lyme starting IV/C

Post Number:#4  Post by ofonorow » Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:13 am

We finished the IV today in 40 minutes and he doesn't have any reaction. He only mentioned that his lips are slightly more sensitive which felt similar to the start of his herxheimer reaction yesterday. We are wondering what created the herxheimer reaction yesterday. Was it the mix with Calcium Ascorbate or maybe the Milli-mole concentration of c because the second half of the IV went extremely fast?

A third possibility is that before the IV yesterday he took a lot of different herbs for breakfast: Samento, oil of Mediterranean Oregano leafs, Probiotics, Korean ginseng, sweet wormwood, Grape Seed extract, curcumin, burbur-pinella, cats claw, bacopa monnieri, Methyl B12, L-Ornithine, L-Glutamine, L-Arginine. In combination with the v-c may that have caused the reaction?

Again thank you very much for your support. He sleeps now and still seems to be fatigued but it's nothing compared to yesterday.

THANK YOU!!!


One thing that isn't clear - was this IV/C only sodium ascorbate or only calcium ascorbate?
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
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Re: Another "newbe" with Lyme starting IV/C

Post Number:#5  Post by ofonorow » Mon Feb 20, 2017 6:54 am

Kleinert and Cathcart both warn that doses of sodium Ascorbate can neutralize Calcium ions in the blood causing muscles spasms and they have even recorded cases of the heart going into spasms because of the drop of Calcium ions in the blood. They injected calcium carbonate.


I hope a doc experienced in IV/C chimes in. I remember reading the early Klenner papers, and I believe Cathcart repeated the Klenner warning, but they added some calcium as you said - not calcium ascorbate. The only addition I remember from the Cathcart video is EDTA - and that is used as a preservative - helping keep the vitamin C in the stock solution from breaking down in the presence of metal ions.

Today I am unaware of any IV/C that worries about the calcium issue, but this is a good topic for our forum.
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
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Re: Another "newbe" with Lyme starting IV/C

Post Number:#6  Post by davea0511 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:42 pm

TREMORS
Tremors can be caused by blood sugar fluctuations. The patient should consume lots of fluids prior to and during IVC administration. The patient should eat prior to the IV to reduce this incidence, although no more than is necessary to keep the tremors at bay (calorie restriction can improve IVC efficacy). Adding 1.0 mL of MgCl will help as well as will an IV push of 10 mL’s of calcium gluconate, 1.0 mL per minute.

FATIGUE
The patient may be suffering a mild case of hypoglycemia, caused by a domination of the glut transporters by the vitamin C (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15578707). Decreased dose and/or rate should help, although clinical experience suggests that once a patient reaches a fatigued state administration should be stopped for them to recover. Additionally, increased fluid consumption before and during may also help. The problem could be related to iron levels, either anemia or hemochromatosis (low enough that it is not detected during testing). Anemia might be mitigated with vitamin b12 (depending on the cause).

As a reminder IVC increases iron uptake, so Iron supplementation should be avoided during IVC days. Additionally iron has been shown to decrease H2O2 production (thereby making IVC less effective as a cancer killing agent, if used for that purpose).

Increased calorie consumption (recommend a whole-food source containing fiber so glucose doesn’t spike) may help (but if not, and if using as a cancer killing agent then it should be avoided as that tends to diminish IVC effectiveness for that purpose).
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