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 Question on Cardio-C Dosage with Vitamin C Insufficiency 
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Yes, Owen. I'd like to try the email option.

Please bear with me while I give you some background on my dad.

Brief outline of his medical history:

He had a bypass in 1985, and another bypass in May 1999 and had stents put in during both bypasses.

He had 2 strokes (one sometime in the1990s while travelling) and one in May 2000.

In both cases there was no residual damage though in the one he had in Hong Kong, he had short term memory loss for the time directly after the stroke and the first day in the hospital. (It might have been that he had such quick care that no real damage occurred.)

In November 06 he had an episode of congestive heart failure. That was treated and has not recurred.

His arteries are very thin like angel hair pasta (he was told) so they occlude more quickly.

He also had problems with type II Diabetes but has for many years gotten control of the problem through diet and measures his blood sugar daily

His diet is very very healthy; the Mediterranenan diet, olive oil, fresh vegetables, fish. Low in simple carbs. Extremely low in sugar. He exercises daily on his treadmill.

He loves to garden and he has a good activity level and great social interaction with his many friends.

[He] recently went to Mayo Clinic and had testing done to check his coronary status. ( I forget what type of testing he had done but can find out if you need the info) . The upshot was he has coronary artery blockage. But because of his age, (he is 80) and the location of the blocked artery (ies?) they will not do another bypass or any other surgical procedure on him. He checked with them at Mayo and they OK's his using the Cardio-C saying it wouldn't cause any harm. -

He is on Plavix (because of his stents) and is taking some statin as well. He used to be on
Coumadin (was put on it after his stroke) but since then his doctor has taken him off Coumadin and I've given him Nattokinase to help prevent clotdevelopment.

A few years ago I also started him on Co Enzyme Q-10 which has been a big help giving him and his heart the energy to have the ability to do things and be active.

With everything I read about the Linus Pauling Method (Cardio-C) I felt it was his best shot at clearing those blockages. But he began taking the Cardio-C in March and though he seems to be doing well, we cannot tell whether taking Cardio-C is making any difference or how much difference it is making..I'm very worried and wonder if he should be taking the Card io-C drink 3 times daily instead of 2?

At this point if he really over exerts himself, heavy digging in the yard (which he shouldn't do) he will get some angina and then he takes his Nitroglycerin pill. He doesn't have these episodes very often at all but it worries me that he is having them at all.

What do you think about his Cardio-C dosage considering his condition? Is there any way he or we can gauge if and how this program is working for him? What is your opinion? Any other recommendations?

Please let me know as I would like to have him around as long as possible.

Thanks so much for your help,

S.




S., sorry for the delay. Every symptom you mention is related to too little vitamin C - like most heart patients. Type II diabetes makes it worse - if glucose can't enter cells and remains in the blood, vitamin C (ascorbate) can't either. Ascorbate and glucose are similar and use the same transport.

So 2 Jars of Cardio-C is providing 5000 mg vitamin C daily, but this may be half or 1/4 of what he needs for best of health. However, if the diabetes is not being corrected - any amount of vitamin C and Cardio-C may not help. (I do like the fact that he is able to exert himself)

So, you say his diet is excellent and diabetes under control. I'd visit http://www.healingmatters.com - and make sure you are following Mr. Smith's advice. Basically, NO trans fats, and reintroduce good fats, mostly Omega-3s if my understanding is correct, which helps repair the membranes surrounding trillions of cells.

Step 2 would be to take vitamin C (perhaps as 500 mg pills) every 4 hours. Start with 500 mg every 4 hours. If he tolerates this amount, he might consider doubling it to 1000 mg every 4 hours. (Again, this in addition to his 2 dosages of Cardio-C)

With blood sugar down, and knowing his tolerance to C (before diarrhea and lots of gas) we can discuss whether he might wish to change products to include more nutrients.

I'll reread this and comment more later.

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Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath


Last edited by ofonorow on Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:07 am
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Owen,

I have to assert that my dad's blood sugar levels are fine and way down- his doctors are very happy with his status regarding that aspect of his health.

He has been following the healthiest of diets for a very very long time. No trans fats; only healthy fats, olive oil; omega 3 fatty acids, (flax seed) and forgot to tell you that I put him on Antarctic Neptune Krill Oil (better than fish oil) that he is taking along with the Nattokinase I suggested he take (after I had him check with his doctor (cardiologist) about taking him off of Coumadin, which he did.). (I'm pretty well versed on a heart healthy diet) He avoids simple carbs (most bread and pasta knowing carbs turn to sugar) eating only very limited amounts of any whole grain product. He loves and eats lots of fresh vegetables and some fresh fruit.

Anyway, what I'm getting at his no, it is not the case that his diabetes is not being corrected - not at all. His blood sugar levels are way down; he just monitors his levels daily.

I think that my dad was looking to get the correct amount of vitamin C in Cardio C in perfect proportion with the Lysine and Proline to effect the Lpa binding with the Lysine so that the occluding plaque would be removed from his body ... Shouldn't he just up the amount of Cardio C he is drinking? I suspect that the extra vitamin C you mention would cause diarrhea and gas...

I have to say he hates taking pills which is why the drink (Cardio-C) sounded like a great option. Is there some high potency vitamin C drink he could use in addition to Cardio-C?

If I remember correctly, It seemed to me that Linus Pauling's friend's symptoms were that he couldn't even walk a couple of steps without severe angina pain. And Pauling recommended the vitamin C and Lysine therapy -after which his friend was able to walk great distances without any angina pain... being ostensibly, cured..

But in my dad's case, he does a lot of walking and much activity without angina pain; - he is fairly active...so one would think if Pauling's therapy helped his friend whose angina symptoms were seemingly more severe, then this Pauling Therapy should also help my dad..

Maybe he should double the amount of Cardio-C he drinks, giving him 10,000 mg C? I also thought the proportion of vitamin C to Lysine was important..? Or doesn't it matter how much vitamin C is taken along with theLysine?

Not sure what other product you're referring to with regard to changing products to provide other nutrients..? I thought Cardio-C was precisely was someone with artery blockages needed..?

Please let me know what you think,

Thanks again Owen,

S.




Excellent. You are taking good care of your dad. What about vitamin E? (I remember you mentioned coenzyme Q10)

Remember, vitamin C in water loses 50% potency after 4 hours. Should be mixed (or added) to water and then immediately swallowed.

Cardio-C at 2 jars monthly provides the basic ingredients Pauling recommends beginning the therapeutic range. But doubleing to 4 jars would do no harm, in my opinion. But I doubt he needs that much lysine long term. I might recommend it given his "angel hair" arteries.

Re: Other products.

I was referring to Tower Heart Technology (http://www.hearttechnology.com) which has more C/lysine, and also vitamin E, A, etc. And then there is the Tower Ascorsine-9 (which is like our Ascorbade) which includes magnesium-creatine, taurine, carnitine, etc.

I know its confusing, but Cardio-C (and everything else) contains Pauling's basic recommendation, then each product adds more. Everthing in HT is in A9, etc.

As far as correct amounts - I am a pretender. I follow Pauling's advice, but I don't claim to have his knowledge. We can only go by Pauling's guidance and recommendations up to 5000 to 6000 mg - about equal vitamin C and lysine. That seems to be all the lysine necessary, but we don't know that for sure. We do know that individuals vary, and some require much more vitamin C for best of health.

But there are still fat solubles that either don't mix with water, or taste exceptionally bad that must be taking as pills, e.g. the Omega/3 (tell me more about Krill oil), CoQ10, Alpha-Lipoic Acid, vitamin D3, etc.

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Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:34 am
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Hello again Owen,
I'm not sure the doctors will be calibrating the dosage of my dad's heart medications with the vitamin C he has been taking.

I believe that back when there was that controversy about vitamin E and because at that time he was taking Coumadin (and he was made aware that a combination of both vitamin E and Coumadin could result in excess blood= thinning), my dad stopped taking it (as a separate vitamin supplement... I know that mixed tocopherols with tocotrienols are best for healthy cell membranes and to promote healthy holesterol levels.. I have to confirm with him exactly what's in his multivitamin andwhat type of vitamin E is contained in it as well as how much. I belive the multi may contain the vitamin B complex though not sure of the exact amount s and will check. I'll look into what you recommended below. But more to the point, do you still think he should switch to Tower (nutritional supplement)? I guess I'm trying to ascertain if you think there's anything else besides the additional vitamin C and making sure he takes vitamin E and the B complex that will help make his treatment more effective. With the cases you h= ave seen of blocked arteries, on average, how long might it take for some= one to feel the positive effects of Cardio-C?

Please let me know.
Thanks again,

s


We'll, see the Jeff Fenlason case, in his case, on his death bed, after 10 years of treatment by ordinary cardiology, he looked like a "new man" after 2 days, and was painting his house within 30 days. He went straight to 14 g of vitamin C and 6 j lysine.
http://www.internetwks.com/testimony.html

Then there have been cases of no or little response, see our forum, that we attribute to a) dental toxicity, b) medicated stents (another source of toxicity), or c) very low tolerance for vitamin C.

The common denominator is insufficient vitamin C. Find his optimum intake and everything else, while helpful, is secondary (supplements).


You should realize that stopping vitamin E can be dangerous. According to the World Health Organization, (this according to Dr. Sinatra's book on CoQ10), low serum vitamin E is the best predictor of a heart attack, something like 70% better than either high cholesterol or high blood pressure. So it is wise to take at least 400 iu daily - not missing a single day. Vitamin E. Now, I know someone with a pace maker who desperately wants to get off COumadin, and has taken up to 3200 or more IU of Unique-E. But this has no/little effect on his INR (his blood clotting). Only the coumadin affects the clotting time, so while people are different, I think they were wrong about vitamin E making the blood "too thin." owen

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Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:41 pm
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Post Out of Order - Should be post #3
Maybe I'll figure out how to move this before the last post

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Hello again,

I now have a list of prescriptions my dad is currently taking:
Isosorb 60 mg. in the am before using the treadmill (to relax and o= pen his arteries so he can exercise without angina)

Spironlact 25 mg. (diuretic that blocks aldosterone and counteracts fl= uid retention in CHF )

Zorcor 20 mg.cholesterol lowering statin (which is especially why he needed Coenzyme Q10)

Coreg 6.25 mg. (bid) to relax arteries and reduce heart rate - used i= n CHF

Diovan 80 mg. relaxes arteries and reduces blood pressure and easing t= he ability for the=20 heart to pump

Fursemide 20 mg. diuretic counteracting fluid retention

Besides the prescription drugs his cardiologist prescribed (above), he = is also taking

Cardio-C As recommended, twice daily

Coenzyme Q10, 400 mg. (100 mg. softgels) spread out during the day =20 Pure Neptune Antarctic Krill Oil Doctor recommended dose of 2 softgel= s daily contains EPA, DHA phospholipids and antioxidants

Nattokinase 2,000 fibrolyntic units or 200 mg (100 mg. a.m and 100 m= g. before bed) =20 A multivitamin (can get specifics if needed but it does contain 500 mg.= vitamin C)

I just instructed my dad to take an additional 500 mg. vitamin C daily in addition to the Cardio C. We will monitor any gastrointestinal symptoms and the hopefully increase the amount of vitamin C.

His prescription drugs were given him after his heart attack and ensuin g damage to his heart muscle and used in management of CHF.

With the above information, please email me your opinions and recommendations. I can provide you with more info about the Krill Oil in another separate email, but it is important that it be Pure Antarctic Neptune Krill Oil which is more beneficial than fish oil.
Thanks so much for your help, Owen.
S.


I am no expert on prescription drugs. It is simply my experience that drugs prescribed for heart patients are compensating for low vitamin C levels. Thus a smaller dosage is probably required the more vitamin C is consistently taken. Even the medical doctors do not understand the possible interactions among all those drugs. A good vitamin E was not listed, and should not be forgotten. I recommend Unique-E from A. C. Grace. But there are other fine brands of vitamin E too.

Pauling also recommended a vitamin B complex (and vitamin A - 25,000 iu) In fact, if you haven't read HOW TO LIVE LONGER AND FEEL BETTER, you might consider getting a copy for your Dad. By LInus Pauling.

Finally, there are natural hormones available which decline after age 40. I think one of the safest with proven benefits is DHEA. Either a low dosage daily, or maybe a 25 mg every other day.


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Tue Jul 03, 2007 5:23 pm
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Hello again,

Well I'm sure my dad does not have dental toxicity, I don't think he has a low tolerance to vitamin C (or wouldn't he already have had a problem with taking Cardio-C?) and I also don't think he has medicated stents (He never actually took Plavix for his stents - it was discussed). So, while understanding that every individual is different, this Cardio-C regimen along with extra vitamin C should really be helping him. - Or at least that is my opinion - Do you concur?

I have been following Dr. Sinatra for a very long time - more then 10 year - when I first read about his research into the Coenzyme Q-10 area... Later on of course he began publishing his monthly newletters which I've received religiously. I, too, agree that vitamin E is important for heart health; but at the time that my dad stopped taking extra vitamin E (not sure if it was under the advice of his doctor) because of the seriousness of his condition and because those studies had just come out, I did not interfere with or contradict whatever his doctors/specialists were recommending he do. - That was then - this is now and so with the seriousness of his condition and since the docs don't seem to know what else to do, I've been successful in first getting him on good levels of Coenzyme Q-10 and Krill oil and Nattokinase and lately the Cardio-C. I am having him increase his levels of vitamin C; at this point we are starting with 500 mg. 3 times daily, as well as the Cardio-C. - Maybe I can get him to take 1,000 mg. C 3 times daily along with the 5,000 mg. C he gets from Cardio-C and see how he tolerates that amount..

Again, I will look into how much and what type of vitamin E he is getting in his multivitamin.

But I am looking forward to your recommendation with regard to any other regimen (Tower) that you think would optimize his chances for success with clearing the occlusions in his cardiac arteries.

Thanks again,

S.



I think you should consider at least one jar monthly of the Tower Ascorsine-9 product. Either to be added with 1 Jar Cardio-C, or 1 Jar HeartTechnology.

This will make sure he is getting enough vitamin E, and Pauling also recommended vitamin A, and other things in the upgrades. This suggestion covers a lot of bases in a single drink. (The only better product I know is our AscorbAde).

From memory, A-9 contains: (See http://hearttechnology.com/abouta9.htm)

taurine - According to the late Dr. Atkins (in VitaNutrient Solution), if cardiologists knew the value of taurine for heart patients, taurine would be the number 3 most prescribed heart medication. (It is my understanding that among other functions, it assists fat soluble vitamins in the body.)

magnesium-creatine - Magnesium is vital for heart patients, and this form is very well absorbed. Creatine strengthens muscles.

Chrondroitin/Sulphate C - Read Levy's book for a detail description of the heart benefits of CS/C.

There are several amino acids, and then everything else that is in Heart Technology, with more proline.

And it tastes good!

p.s. You seem well versed. I am curious. Why do you have so much faith in Nattokinase?

p.s.s. You say you are sure your dad does not have dental toxicity. Does this mean he has no fillings and/or root canals?

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Wed Jul 04, 2007 7:59 am
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Post key nutrients that drugs cannot replace
magnesium relaxes blood vessels, reduces thromboxane and chronic inflammation
3 out of 4 people are magnesium deficient.
http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2005/sep2005_awsi_01.htm
http://www.mgwater.com/

vitamin D3 deficiency is prevalent:
http://www.vitamindcouncil.com/

D3 Heart Disease studies:
http://www.vitamindcouncil.com/research ... ease.shtml

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Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:48 am
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 19:47:21 -0700 (PDT)
Owen,
0
I didn't realize by dental toxicity you meant root canals or silver fillings; I wasn't certain about that so I had my mom check with his dentist. And yes, he had 3 root canals; one in '91, one in 94 and one in '97. He also has one silver filling.... So, what does this negative information mean? Will the root canals and the silver filling negate the effects o=
f Cardio-C or any other protocol we try or add? Is there anything we can do to mitigate the effects of the "dental toxicity"? I know I've read articles about root canals being tied to a lot of illnesses. I don't think it manifests as the same illness in everyone...

Also regarding Nattokinase:

Nattokinase is an enzyme isolated from the traditional Japanese soy food, natto. It's been shown to support healthy blood flow by breaking down fibrin, assisting the circulatory clearing system of the body - dissolving blood clots and preventing the aggregation of red blood cells. So it appears it not only has clot dissolving abilities but it also aids in keep in clots from forming.. And since my dad had a stroke in the past and was on Coumadin, I was happy his cardiologist OK'd taking him off Coumadin a nd followed my suggestion for adding Nattokinase to his list of supplements.

I'm kind of surprised that you haven't seen anything by Dr. Sinatra on it since he's been singing its praises for awhile already.. But I first read about Nattokinase years ago in another alternative doctor's newletter- Dr. David Williams... (I've subscribed to a lot of alternative doctors newletters over the years - I'm always in search of knowledge and answers - expecially when it comes to loved ones.)

K2 is another powerful cardiac aid (though my dad's cardiologist preferred my dad be on Nattokinase rather than K2... I've had my husband on K-2 for a few years. But only recently did I see the benefits for that supplement discussed in Dr. Sinatra's newletter. - So, I must say I was aheadof him on that..

Did I already get back to you regarding Antarctic Krill Oil? Well if not, in a nutshell:

According to what I=92ve read, Antarctic Pure Krill Oil offers clear advantages to fish oil in a number of ways. You get the same benefits of omega-3 rich fish oil including EPA and DHA, but it is much better absorbed than fish oil so you can take 1/5 the dose and get by with two small capsules rather than 10 large ones. The phospholipid binding increases the bioavailability of the omega-3s. The liposomes deliver the fatty acids directly to the body's cells where it's needed. It also offers excellent antioxidant protection including astaxanthin as well as a marine flavonoid. Since krill are at the bottom of the food chain and collected from the pristine seas surrounding Antarctica, mercury, PCBs, heavy metals and ot her toxins aren't an issue.

Back to how best to provide my dad with supplements to help his condition..

If my dad were to use one jar of Tower Ascorsine 9 per month, would that cancel out his need for a more comprehensive multivitamin? The one heis using now seems to have just the bare minimum of vitamins - rather measly dosages of most. I know he needs a more therapeutic dose of B vitamins... But it sounds like Tower Ascorsine 9 will provide whatever he needsin the way of Vitamin E with mixed tocopherols - is that correct?

Please provide any further recommendations with the info below in mind. Thanks,
S.

List of what's contained in my dad's multi (as described by my mom) be=
low:
Vitamin A 3500 IUs
Vitamin C 60 mg.
Vitamin D 400 IUs (though not D3, the preferred version)
Vitamin E 60 IUs
Vitamin K 10 mcg.
Thiamine 1.5 mg.
(B-1)
Ribolflavin 1.7 mg.
(B-2)
Niacin 20 mg.
B-6 3 mg.
Folic Acid 400mcg.
B-12 30 mg
Biotin 30 mg.
Pantothenic Acid 10 mg.
Calcium 200 mg.
Phosphorous 48 mg.
Iodine 150 mg.
Magnesium 100 mg.
Zinc 15mg.
Selenium 200 mcg.
Copper 2 mg.
Chromium 150 mcg.
Molybednym 160 mcg.
Chloride 72 mg.
Potassium 80 mg.
Boron 300 mcg.
Nickel 5 mcg.
Silicon 2 mcg.
Vanadium 10 mcg.
Lutein 275 mcg.
Lycopene 300 mcg.


I'll have to reread this and answer more thoroughly later, but according to Dr. Thomas LEvy, using vitamin C and other supplements when there is root canal toxicity present, is like trying to blow dry a stream of water. When the dental toxicity is removed, then the supplements can be effective.

See page 2 of this discussion


http://vitamincfoundation.org/forum/vie ... l&start=15

Quote:
quote from Tom Levey

Owen:

First and foremost, and I regret this perhaps was not emphasized enough in the book, your patient needs to address all chronic dental toxicity, especially root canals and advanced periodontal disease.

I have seen ONE root canal cause fulminantly progressive coronary disease, in spite of perfect supplementation. Post-extraction, it stopped progressing and even began reversing almost immediately.
.
. Some deleted

Tom Levy


The book I suggest by Levy and Hal Huggins is entitled UNINFORMED CONSENT. It is powerful. This book tells you most of what you need to know, except the proper way to remove the root canals. (Levy himself reports that he began to experience CVD symptoms, but all symptoms reversed almost immediately after Huggins removed a root canal, thus intriguing Levy, leading him on a journey that resulted in his knowledge of vitamin C)

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Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:04 pm
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Post what are the markers and toxins for root canal toxicity?
Is it Elevated CRP, Chronic Inflammation or what?

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Sat Jul 07, 2007 3:29 am
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This book tells you most of what you need to know, except the proper way to remove the root canals. (Levy himself reports that he began to experience CVD symptoms, but all symptoms reversed almost immediately after Huggins removed a root canal, thus intriguing Levy, leading him on a journey that resulted in his knowledge of vitamin C)


Like Ralph, I am curious about root canal toxicity also. Its expensive to put in a root canal and its expensive to take it out, especially when you have more than one root canal in your mouth. Also, if these root canals are located in key areas of the mouth, you might need to replace the tooth with something else and a bridge is not always possible plus it shaves off 2 intact teeth and you end up paying for 3 expensive crowns to do it. The only other choice is to have it replaced with an implant. So what did Levy replace his root canal with?


Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:19 am
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http://www.whale.to/b/huggins_h.html

Quote:
Then we get into the root canal business, and that is the most tragic of all. Isn’t there something you can put in the centre of the canal that is safe? Yeah, there probably is, but that is not where the problem is. The problem with a root canal is that it is dead. Lets equate that. Lets say you have got a ruptured appendix, so you go to the phone book, and who do you look up? Lets see, we have a surgeon and a taxidermist, who do you call? You going to get it bronzed? That is all we do to a dead tooth. We put a gold crown on it, looks like it has been bronzed. It doesn’t really matter what you embalm the dead tooth with, it is still dead, and within that dead tooth we have bacteria, and these bacteria are not in the absence of oxygen. In the absence of oxygen most things die except bacteria. They undergo something called a pleomorphic change………………like a mutation .. they learn to live in the absence of oxygen…now produce thioethers, some of the strongest poisons on the planet that are not radioactive. These get out into the body and you may notice in the medical literature of 1900 they mentioned a few heart attacks, so it wasn’t a big deal in 1900, but by 1910 2% of the US population, which is a lot of folks had had heart attacks. By 1920---10% of the population had had heart attacks, and we are up to about 25% about 10 years ago, and everywhere you go you see joggers running around. Menus in the restaurant have this little heart over it because we are on low cholesterol diets …….so what has it done. It has dropped the 25% down to around 43% . We are going in the wrong direction and root canals are going up. In 1990 we did 17 million of them. This last year we did 23 million, and the ADA hopes by the year 2000 we reach 30 million a year.

Weston Price knew this back in 1920 … he would take a person who had had a heart attack, take out the tooth with the root canal, take a little segment of it, put it under the skin of a rabbit. We have done this with guinea pigs, and in about 10 days that rabbit would die of a heart attack. And you could take it out and put it under the skin of another rabbit, and in 10 days he would die of a heart attack……he would do this to 30 rabbits and every one of them in 97% of the cases would die of heart disease. What if they didn’t have heart disease? If they had something else, the rabbit picks up the something else, but all of them that we have tested in this way have ended up with an auto immune disease in the kidney, and if you look at the work of Joseph Issels in Germany (http://www.alternativemedicine.com/heal ... ndex.shtml http://cancerguide.org/coley.html) who for 40 years treated terminal cancer cases. He started on them when they had already had their chemo, surgery, radiation, then they came to him. That is having 3 strikes against you and a fast ball down the tube there before you get up to the plate. He turned around 24% of 16,000 patients over a period of 40 years. What is the first thing he did? Have a dentist take out the root canal teeth.



Here is Dr. Huggins home page
http://www.hugginsappliedhealing.com/index.php

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Sun Jul 08, 2007 8:38 am
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