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Testimony - Its the Dosage Stupid!
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ofonorow Ascorbate Wizard Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:16 pm Posts: 8224 Location: Lisle, IL	Testimony - Its the Dosage Stupid! Quote: Hi Owen 9/22/09 First, Thank you for activating my account for the forum. I hope I can be of some help here. My wife who had triple bypass in 2001 and then had an aterery closing down when I started her on Tower heart technolgy, and then they were going to do a brachetherapy (radiation burning of the artery) and found out she didn't need it. Thanks to heart tech! She is doing just fine. She takes 3 grams C and 2.5 grams L-lysine ,1-250 mg L-Proline, 1-30 mg. CQ10. Two months ago they had to take her off one of her BP med's. She was taking 1 am & 1 pm Her Bp dropped now she only takes the am BP med now. She takes a hormone pill and That @#$$%^ Plavix. That's it. Me and her cardiologist (the same guy who wanted to burn her) had it out again about plavix the last time we were there. She still laughs when we talk about it she says she didn't understand a word of what we were talking about. Anyway she now only takes 1/2 of a pill. Per Dr's Order! 1/2 to much for my liking. I'd like to relay an experience and knowledge I encountered with my health over the last year. During my routine exam about a year ago my Dr. noticed a burp in my left carotid artery and sent me for an Echo. It turns out I HAD a 30% blockage there. I was shocked since me and the wife take the same supplements. She cleared out, I'm blocking up. So back to the books, the Internet, the library. When I finally figured it out I really felt stupid. The whole answer broke down to one equation "Mg/Kg" In Dr Klenner's writings he describes his dosage for the various diseases he treated with V-C and how he applied it for the individual patients using their weight and this formula. My wife weights a 110 lbs. 49.6 Kg and I weight 195 lbs. 88 Kg. We take 3000 mg. a day. She figures at 3000/49.6=60.5 Mg/Kg V-C. Me 3000/88=34 Mg/Kg V-C I'm getting a little more then half of what she's getting. She's doing great, I'm going down hill. It was all to obvious I wasn't getting enough V-C. So up I went to 6000 mg with no problem at about 8000 mg start having a little problem but muscled thru it. Held at 8000 for three months then back down to 6000 mg. more for convince of taking it at food time. Since I use powdered V-C and L-Lysine Mixed. My L-Lysine was increased proportionately. At the four month Echo Follow up I had a so called "Fatty Streak" in the artery. Four months later June 09 Echo. Results were "Normal, See you Next year!" So Score another one for Vitamin C. I'll tell you one thing about the process of healing my carotid artery it sure lets you know something is happening there. A few times it felt like someone kicked me in the neck ,now it's back to normal. So What I learned is 34 Mg/Kg doesn't really give a whole lot of protection 50 Mg/Kg would probably be better for preventive. At 60 Mg/Kg healing starts at 90 Mg/Kg Things really start to happen. In Dr. Klenner's writings he seemed to start his dosages at 100 Mg/Kg of course he was IVing and shooting IM But he also used oral doses as follow ups at pretty good rates. In the forum I noticed a few instances were people say things were going good at first when they took one of your products and then turned south. You rightfully tell them to titrate up but I can't help but to think how much has their weight changed. Playing with this formula I found even a five pound weight gain can put you in a different dosage range and if they were on the boarder to begin with now their heading in the wrong direction. So there you have it Einstein Gave us E=Mc 2 and the world was amazed but did save a life? Klenner gave us Mg/Kg and no one noticed yet it could save millions of lives. Before I let you go I came across this article That compare's Lipid Theory with the Unified Theory. Very well written in plain language. John Wenskus LINK Below http://www.ourhealthcoop.com/pauling.htm Thanks John. (If you want me to remove your name - email me). Yes, Dosage dosage dosage. Since you are now an expert in the equation, perhaps you can contribute a table of body weight in pounds, and the appropriate dosage range in mg or grams? Now as far as Plavix, maybe a strategy for Plavix is to contact one of the law firms involved in the class action suits! _________________ Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:40 am

Johnwen Vitamin C Expert Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:27 pm Posts: 931	Re: Testimony - Its the Dosage Stupid! Owen: I going to E-Mail the Charts to you I can’t get them to load on the forum. For those who want to be adventurous with a calculator Here an example. Person weights 182 lbs. Find Kilograms: 182/2.215=82.167 Round up 83 Kg Current user taking 3000mg. V-C. How much is my body getting? 3000/83=36.15 Mg/Kg Not a very good amount. I started developing plaque at 34 Mg/Kg after 8 years. It did keep cholesterol 190-202 which means I’m still alive. 50 Mg/Kg is a better amount for preventive. How to get there. 50x83=4150mg V-C. 1 Teaspoon Tower Heart Tech = 1500 Mg. V-C 4150/1500= 2.76 Teaspoons. That’s pretty hard to measure let’s round up. 3 Teaspoons . Sounds Like Breakfast, Lunch and Dinner to me. But it’s a pretty long time between Diner and Breakfast. So lets do Breakfast, Dinner and about an hour before bed. Much Better. How much do I get now? 3 x 1500 =4500Mg. V-C 4500 / 83 =54.21 Mg/Kg That’s a good preventive amount. My wife healed a severe blockage that formed after 3 bypass. The thing here is her blockage was fresh and formed within one week after her surgery. 61Mg/Kg healed her in one month. In me it took 4 months at 90 Mg/Kg to break up a 30% in my cartoid. As we can see Time the blockage has been there and percentage of blockage play a big role. What’s Next? Call Tower and reset your auto-ship. THEN:60 Teaspoons per jar. 2 a day =30 days. NOW: 60 Teaspoons per jar. 3 a day = 20 days. _________________ To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is research!
Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:25 am

Johnwen Vitamin C Expert Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:27 pm Posts: 931	Re: Testimony - Its the Dosage Stupid! Code: Weight Lbs. Wgt Kg. 30 Mg/Kg 40 Mg/Kg 50 Mg/Kg 60 Mg/Kg 70 Mg/Kgs 80 Mg/Kg 90 Mg/Kg 100 Mg/Kg 100 45.1 1,354 1,806 2,257 2,709 3,160 3,612 4,063 4,515 105 47.4 1,422 1,896 2,370 2,844 3,318 3,792 4,266 4,740 110 49.7 1,490 1,986 2,483 2,980 3,476 3,973 4,470 4,966 115 51.9 1,558 2,077 2,596 3,115 3,634 4,153 4,673 5,192 120 54.2 1,625 2,167 2,709 3,251 3,792 4,334 4,876 5,418 125 56.4 1,693 2,257 2,822 3,386 3,950 4,515 5,079 5,643 130 58.7 1,761 2,348 2,935 3,521 4,108 4,695 5,282 5,869 135 60.9 1,828 2,438 3,047 3,657 4,266 4,876 5,485 6,095 140 63.2 1,896 2,528 3,160 3,792 4,424 5,056 5,688 6,321 145 65.5 1,964 2,619 3,273 3,928 4,582 5,237 5,892 6,546 150 67.7 2,032 2,709 3,386 4,063 4,740 5,418 6,095 6,772 155 70.0 2,099 2,799 3,499 4,199 4,898 5,598 6,298 6,998 160 72.2 2,167 2,889 3,612 4,334 5,056 5,779 6,501 7,223 165 74.5 2,235 2,980 3,725 4,470 5,214 5,959 6,704 7,449 170 76.7 2,302 3,070 3,837 4,605 5,372 6,140 6,907 7,675 175 79.0 2,370 3,160 3,950 4,740 5,530 6,321 7,111 7,901 180 81.3 2,438 3,251 4,063 4,876 5,688 6,501 7,314 8,126 185 83.5 2,506 3,341 4,176 5,011 5,847 6,682 7,517 8,352 190 85.8 2,573 3,431 4,289 5,147 6,005 6,862 7,720 8,578 195 88.0 2,641 3,521 4,402 5,282 6,163 7,043 7,923 8,804 200 90.3 2,709 3,612 4,515 5,418 6,321 7,223 8,126 9,029 205 92.6 2,777 3,702 4,628 5,553 6,479 7,404 8,330 9,255 210 94.8 2,844 3,792 4,740 5,688 6,637 7,585 8,533 9,481 215 97.1 2,912 3,883 4,853 5,824 6,795 7,765 8,736 9,707 220 99.3 2,980 3,973 4,966 5,959 6,953 7,946 8,939 9,932 225 101.6 3,047 4,063 5,079 6,095 7,111 8,126 9,142 10,158 230 103.8 3,115 4,153 5,192 6,230 7,269 8,307 9,345 10,384 235 106.1 3,183 4,244 5,305 6,366 7,427 8,488 9,549 10,609 240 108.4 3,251 4,334 5,418 6,501 7,585 8,668 9,752 10,835 245 110.6 3,318 4,424 5,530 6,637 7,743 8,849 9,955 11,061 250 112.9 3,386 4,515 5,643 6,772 7,901 9,029 10,158 11,287 255 115.1 3,454 4,605 5,756 6,907 8,059 9,210 10,361 11,512 260 117.4 3,521 4,695 5,869 7,043 8,217 9,391 10,564 11,738 265 119.6 3,589 4,786 5,982 7,178 8,375 9,571 10,767 11,964 270 121.9 3,657 4,876 6,095 7,314 8,533 9,752 10,971 12,190 275 124.2 3,725 4,966 6,208 7,449 8,691 9,932 11,174 12,415 280 126.4 3,792 5,056 6,321 7,585 8,849 10,113 11,377 12,641 285 128.7 3,860 5,147 6,433 7,720 9,007 10,293 11,580 12,867 290 130.9 3,928 5,237 6,546 7,856 9,165 10,474 11,783 13,093 295 133.2 3,995 5,327 6,659 7,991 9,323 10,655 11,986 13,318 300 135.4 4,063 5,418 6,772 8,126 9,481 10,835 12,190 13,544 _________________ To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is research!
Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:26 am

ofonorow Ascorbate Wizard Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:16 pm Posts: 8224 Location: Lisle, IL	Re: Testimony - Its the Dosage Stupid! Cool, thank you. This is the Fred Klenner range, however based on your recent experience, which column do you believe represents the minimum therapeutic dosage based entirely on body weight (and no other factors). Maybe we should bold that column? This is an interesting way of thinking about vitamin C supplementation, especially for health professionals. But somewhat complex. Perhaps we may still be able to reduce the seemingly complicated table by looking at it another way, e.g. 2000 mg Weight A thru B 2500 mg Weight B thru C 3000 mg Weight C thru D, etc. _________________ Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
Sat Sep 26, 2009 5:27 am

Johnwen Vitamin C Expert Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:27 pm Posts: 931	Re: Testimony - Its the Dosage Stupid! I Posted the chart more for speed to get it up. People can see what their intake is in comparison with their weight. I’ve been researching what the experts say as far as what the minimum amount we should be taking is. Thru my observations and personal experiences my feeling’s are that 50 Mg/Kg a day. Should be a base amount taken to maintain good health an give the body a defense. The following are from the Experts. Fredrick Klenner: Quote “Based on scant data on mammalian synthesis, available for the rat, a 70-Kg. individual would produce 1.8 grams[5] to 4.0 grams[6] of ascorbate per day in the unstressed condition. Under stress, up to 15.2 grams.” Ok! Unstressed means “Not Sick” 70-Kg.=155 Lbs. Math: 1800Mg/70= 25.71 Mg/Kg to 4000Mg/70= 57.15 Mg/Kg. Let’s Average it out 25.71+57.15=82.86/2=41.43 Mg/Kg would be the average amount available in a healthy155lb. Person. If We were able to synthesize Vitamin C Like a Lab Rat does. Irwin Stone: Quote “From the Committee on Animal Nutrition's "Nutrient Requirements of Laboratory Animals" (1962) we find some startling figures. The recommended diet for the monkey -- our closest mammalian relative -- is 55 milligrams of ascorbic acid per kilogram of body weight or 3,830 milligrams of ascorbic acid per day for the average adult human. The daily amount suggested as adequate for the guinea pig varies depending upon which of two diets is selected and ranges from 42 to 167 milligrams per kilogram of body weight (based on a 300-gram guinea pig). This amounts to 2,920 milligrams to 11,650 milligrams per day for the average adult human.” Average adult= 155lbs.-70 Kg I Like Dr. Stone he did all the math for me. I’m Doing more checking on this so we can find a good base. Let’s average this out 41.43+55=96.43/2=48.215Mg/Kg. _________________ To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is research!
Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:20 am

ofonorow Ascorbate Wizard Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:16 pm Posts: 8224 Location: Lisle, IL	Re: Testimony - Its the Dosage Stupid! Thank you for the work. Is the Klenner range for oral intake? (Pauling estimated that 50% is lost via oral route) _________________ Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:56 am

Johnwen Vitamin C Expert Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:27 pm Posts: 931	Re: Testimony - Its the Dosage Stupid! Sorry I took so long responding had to prepare a paper for my daughter. She's an RN Here's a link that pretty much says the more you Take with each Dose the less you absorb. Ie More smaller doses are better then a few large doses. Good Reading http://www.exrx.net/Nutrition/Antioxida ... aminC.html _________________ To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is research!
Sat Oct 03, 2009 4:16 pm

scottbushey Enthusiast Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:43 pm Posts: 176	Re: Testimony - Its the Dosage Stupid! "More smaller doses are better then a few large doses." Greetings. New to the board, new to Vitamin C therapy. Having read this interesting thread, would the following be efficacious to my intake? This am, I took 4 grams powder VC and put it in a new .5 liter bottle of H2O; my goal is to drink this over a 4 hr span. take an additional 2 grams in pill form at noon, then another 4 Gram solution. Kind regards, Scott
Sun Oct 04, 2009 4:37 am

ofonorow Ascorbate Wizard Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:16 pm Posts: 8224 Location: Lisle, IL	Re: Testimony - Its the Dosage Stupid! Welcome. 6000 mg daily for a healthy person is a good amount. This amount (due to loss of 50% in 4 hours in water) is in theory between 4 and 5 grams daily. Have you calculated your "unsick" bowel tolerance ( http://www.orthomed.com/titrate.htm)? As we recently posted, 80% of the may require 10 g daily for best of health. The bowel tolerance "test" will help you determine your daily requirement. _________________ Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
Sun Oct 04, 2009 5:02 am

scottbushey Enthusiast Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:43 pm Posts: 176	Re: Testimony - Its the Dosage Stupid! I don't quite understand how to calculate that. Can you help?
Sun Oct 04, 2009 5:05 am

Johnwen Vitamin C Expert Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:27 pm Posts: 931	Re: Testimony - Its the Dosage Stupid! Scott I’m going to assume your in good health and someone or something made you aware that you maybe in line for problems down the road. What your doing by watering down the powder and leaving it set, cuts it’s potency in half so if you put 4 grams in it your only getting the effect of 2 grams also your exposing your teeth to an acid. Just like happens when you sip soda all day. The better way would be to mix small amounts with water then drink it and chase it with some water. That way your getting with your paying for. If that don’t work for you, have a bottle of regular water for a rinse after your drink. Your method with the pill would yield 6000 mg V-C Effective. Look up at the chart on the left side find your weight and then follow to the right and find 6000 or around it and look at the top that is your milligrams of V-C per kilogram of body weight. 50 would give you pretty good protection. Owen wants you to titrate up to find your bowel tolerance. I would suggest holding at your 6000mg for about two weeks so your body can get use to the new nourishment it’s receiving. About every 3 days add another 500mg V-C to your routine. Make sure you write down what your taking per day at some point down the road your gut is going to let you know. That is bowel tolerence. What you just found out is your unstressed limit. Back it down 500 mg and that is what body needs. If after a couple of days your gut acts up. It means you weren’t a 100% well and now your better and your body don’t need the higher amount any more. Everybody is different Everyday is different. Soon you’ll have a good target amount of V-C Don’t forget L-Lysine Min.2800 Mg. Min. L-Proline 250Mg. And a Multi Vitamin. Hopefully your healthy enough were you don’t have to go too much over 6000. _________________ To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is research!
Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:08 pm

Johnwen Vitamin C Expert Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:27 pm Posts: 931	Re: Testimony - Its the Dosage Stupid! Owen and people of the forum I had an epiphany today and like to get some feed back on this idea. On the chart at the top it gives the Mg/Kg amounts. What if That was the decade of age? Of a healthy individual. Lets say a 42 year old person weighting 185 lbs. We look at the 40 Mg/Kg column and go down to 185 lbs on the left it intersects at 3341 mg V-C or 3500mg would be a good healthy, protective base. A 48-49 year old would be best to go to the 50 column. The vitamin C experts kind of avoid giving a good base amount. Dr. Pauling said 3000 mg would prevent 75% of the problems and he verified this in his tape but I believe he was like the others going against the ridicules 60mg RDA. Looking at the chart 3000 mg would protect quite a few weight ranges some more then others yes 75% of the population would be protected but what about the 1 in 4 that it don’t protect? _________________ To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is research!
Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:56 pm

ofonorow Ascorbate Wizard Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:16 pm Posts: 8224 Location: Lisle, IL	Re: Testimony - Its the Dosage Stupid! I feel a little thick today and I am not following. Are you saying that you think the aged require more antioxidant protection? Probably true, but how would we quantify? What experiment could be run? The beauty of your original epiphany is the recognition that body weight (to the extent it represents the number of cells) is important when deciding on vitamin C dosages. What is the extension, and is it worth the complication? _________________ Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:19 am

Johnwen Vitamin C Expert Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:27 pm Posts: 931	Re: Testimony - Its the Dosage Stupid! Statistical Analysis is always a good indicator. Here’s a link to the National Center for Health Statistics, Heart disease statistics. It’s 169 pages long in it you can find anything about any possibility that’s been reported to the CDC. It’s overwhelming. http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_10/sr10_240.pdf On this one it’s less confusing they took the info and Graphed it On Page #5 Click on PDF file at bottom of text. http://www.sourceadvisorsinc.com/report.php?id=18 With this information I can say “ Yes! Age Does Factor into Heart Problems.” BUT living in Alabama and along the Mississippi & Ohio River also seems to Raise your risk. Evidence link here. http://www.cdc.gov/DHDSP/library/fs_men_heart.htm _________________ To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is research!
Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:30 am

ofonorow Ascorbate Wizard Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:16 pm Posts: 8224 Location: Lisle, IL	Re: Testimony - Its the Dosage Stupid! The question is what is the relation between age and vitamin C intake. _________________ Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath
Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:06 am

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