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 VC....... not exacty the results I was looking for!!! 
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Post VC....... not exacty the results I was looking for!!!
I have written in here from time to time. So I will give a brief time line of events
1. 9/27/2007 Myocardial infraction LAD two stents
2. 01/01/2008 Began VC protocol call but not full strength
3. 02/01 /2009 Began VC 18-20 grams, 6gr proline, 6 gr Lysine per day on or about.
4. 06/26/2009 Two more stents in LAD
5. 01/31/2011 another myocardial infraction, branch of the Ramus artery, one stent deployed

The 2 lesions in the Ramus artery were noted on 06/26/2009 but were not significant at the time. In 1 ½ years the lesions developed (matured) and one ruptured while I was “shoveling snow”. I drove to the hospital and was admitted with all the typical symptoms except sweating.

I was taking full doses’ VC protocol religiously for 1-½ years and the lesions still matured. Yet there was no change in two existing lesions in either the RCA or where the stents were deployed in the LAD?

I feel that I was doing every thing according to VC Forum and had the doctor on board with my treatment. The lesions still developed and ruptured. I supposed had I not strained my self that they would of calcified or ruptured further down the road?.
Now I’m back on satins along with the plavix , a Beta blocker and an Ace inhibitor.
Still on the VC protocol and supplements posted previously. I’m 58, 210lb male so the VC gr/lb calculations are near or exceeding the matrix that was posted some time back “it’s the dosage”.

All opinions will be appreciated, for other info, cholesterol levels Vap test’s ect, please search my avatar or ask.

This is really starting to SUCK!!! :evil:


Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:37 am
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Post Re: VC....... not exacty the results I was looking for!!!
Quote:
Hello Owen,

I'm not usually inclined to comment without invitation, but the problems that jknospir are having seem classic to me, if I am right. First and foremost, if he has any root canals, they need to come out yesterday, and they need to be extracted properly. The best supplementation and nutrition will often be absolutely useless in the face of this source of dental toxicity. If he is absolutely certain there are no root canals (sometimes people don't know or forget, and they are apparent on a dental X-ray), then he needs a good dentist to look for other subclinically infected teeth. If there are any lucent spaces around teeth consistent with abscesses, they need to be extracted. Periodontal disease needs to be addressed as well. Water pik with some warm water and hydrogen peroxide usually resolves even advanced cases and subsequently maintains the gums in a much healthier state. If he has implanted teeth, serious consideration should be given to having these properly extracted as well, especially if none of the other possible sources of dental infection/toxicity are present. "The Roots of Disease" covers all of this in much more detail.

Anyone who is contemplating extensive dental work should first be completely comfortable with their decision. As in don't believe me, examine the evidence and make your own decision. No health care practitioner is always correct, and what I am offering here is certainly not a specific consultation on jknospir. All of this represents guidelines that I would offer to anyone, sight unseen, due to the nature of the science and the pathophysiology of atherosclerosis.

If there are absolutely no questions of dental toxicity (and I would very, very seriously doubt that there are none, as his atherosclerosis is currently in what I term a viciously aggressive phase), then gut toxicity needs to be addressed. If he is not having one or more stools daily, then this needs to addressed promptly. Proper food combinations are essential and there should be the routine ingestion of enough sodium ascorbate to assure this minimal bowel activity. Two or more bowel movements daily would be optimal.

If none of the above applies, then intravenous vitamin C for a while (as a loading dose) should be considered, with 3 to 5 grams of liposome encapsulated vitamin C daily to go along with his current regimen. I would certainly not rely on any of the homemade liposome C, either. The LivOn product is costly because it is difficult to produce a high quality, stable, and properly encapsulated product. The reasoning is that there needs to be, at least initially, a large "gradient" of vitamin C to allow penetration of old plaque
and permit increasing levels of the C to start accumulating inside the artery).Vitamin D3 should be supplemented to maintain a level of 60 to 80 ng/cc.

All forms of calcium should be avoided as supplementation, and milligram (not
microgram) doses of K2 should be taken. Probably 600 to 1,000 mg of magnesium glycinate should be added (which will also help the bowels, if that was in fact a problem). Milk and most dairy foods (except butter) should be regularly avoided. A regular dose of nattokinase would probably a good idea as well.

If his mouth is pristine and all of this is being done already, then I have to confess to being clueless, at least until some further inspiration hits my
brain.

Best regards,

Dr. Levy

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Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:48 am
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Post Re: VC....... not exacty the results I was looking for!!!
Dental work: All amalgam fillings have been removed with in a year of of the first event. All have been filled with a ceramic. Several have been capped within the last 3 years(approx). To my knowledge there are no root canals as I took fairly good care of my teeth over the years. To my knowledge there is no disease present. The only time my teeth have ever hurt was during a myocardial event when they ached in the bottom jaw.

Bowel activity is normal two per day some times more when BT is reached, which is almost every day for the last 1 1/2 years (approx) and or at least excessive gas on the edge of diarrhea.

Was taking the LivOn product for approx 6 months? 1 to 2 packets /day added to the 18 gr of VC taken daily. Lipo is pricey so that was stopped back in Nov 2010 (approx)

Not currently taking any K2 or magnesium glycinate.

Fat free creamer half/half in my coffee no (trans fat) and minimal amounts of cheese, no butter, no nattokinase either.


Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:32 am
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Post Re: VC....... not exacty the results I was looking for!!!
Have you considered edta chelation therapy? There appears to be a strong rationale for this. Also, instead of statin, niacin could be used for cholesterol control. A good book on this is "Cholesterol Control without Diet, The Niacin Solution". Niacin has more benefits and less risk than statins and is the only med/supplement known to raise HDL cholesterol. There have been many studies on this confirming its efficacy. Even though it can increase homocysteine levels all the studies indicate that it was very effective in decreasing heart disease. To decrease the increase in homocysteine, take TMG and a b compex vitamin.


Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:13 am
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Post Re: VC....... not exacty the results I was looking for!!!
Quote:
one ruptured while I was “shoveling snow”. I drove to the hospital and was admitted with all the typical symptoms except sweating.


This kind of says it all!!
First a Heart Patient Shoveling snow! Did your Doctors not tell you? “Don’t do any strenuous activities!” Recently I was watching a Chicago News about the big storm they had up there and they were predicting they will see over a 100 heart attack patients at the local Hospitials and the ER’s were gearing up for the sudden increase.
Then you Said “One Ruptured!”
What is the cause of anything that we call “A Rupture,”??
Excessive Pressure from some pumping source.
I think your starting to see a connection here.
Let’s add some more facts starting at age 40 the male of our species looses about 1% per year of age of kidney function. From your prior posts you said your 58 years old. So that means your kidneys are functioning somewhere around 82% of what they were doing when you where 40 years old.
To this let’s add your dosing of Vitamin C. V-C is stored in the adrenal glands and where are they located? On top of the kidneys were they have a direct effect on the kidney function. Since the adrenals store V-C for the times when intake levels are low they will sense the increase demand for V-C due to the increased activity of the body so to preserve needed levels they will signal the kidneys to slow down excretion. Meaning now less water will be taken from the body.
Now your out in the cold air breathing in air that is maybe 90 degrees different from your body temperature. I think those of us who have lived in cold areas have experienced this. When you first walk outside Your breath is like your expelling smoke, the vapor is very heavy but after being outside for a while the vapor is almost gone. I sure we all know that the vapor we see is moisture coming from the lungs. After we’re outside for awhile the cold air being inhaled chills our lungs causing the air sacs to constrict allowing less moisture to escape. Meaning now less water will be taken from the body.
Sweating is the bodies way of cooling itself from the evaporation of fluids on the skin surface. Working outside in cold weather sweating is usually not an option unless your overly dressed for the temperature. Or your wearing an item of clothing that doesn’t allow air movement to the skin. Boots!
Meaning now less water will be taken from the body.

Now we have a situation where our body has a great store of fluid. Which can be good, sometimes. Now we start doing strenuous work which in turn starts breaking down the cells in the muscles and they start releasing their byproducts into the blood taking in the nutrients necessary to rebuild stronger. However were not excreting any fluids and the byproducts tend to be acidic the body senses this and adds fluids to the blood to counter the PH change. Since the muscles are breaking down and rebuilding the body knows it must send nourishments to the muscle so it signals the liver to add the EVER EVIL CHOLESTROL to the blood to aid in the stronger rebuilding of the muscles. The heart is being signaled to increase it’s output to keep things moving it starts pumping faster and with the increase of serum fluid, pressures rise quite rapidly. The coronary feeds from the aorta are before the baroceptors and the coronary arterioles can experience a great increase in pressure before the body can respond to the high pressure. If there is a weak spot it could rip and or rupture from these high pressures.

How to prevent this? Don’t shovel snow your not 20 years old!!!
Your Doc gave you Beta-Blockers these will relax your heart and it wouldn’t pump as hard. But I’m suspecting a fluid build up, maybe a renal problem? I suggest you have a talk with your doc about this possibility there’s a lot of test he can do. It’s called “Hypervolemia.”

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Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:19 am
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Post Re: VC....... not exacty the results I was looking for!!!
Quote:
This kind of says it all!!


Yes it does, the question still remains why did the protocol fail, thats what I need to know.

Blaming exercise for heart attacks is the same as blaming guns for killing people, and makes as much sense as blaming the spoon for making them fat! All counterintuitive to what I read here and in all the medical posts I have managed to get a hold of. Every doctor says to exercise, by walking light Jogging, weight training ect. I was hunting up a mountain in Wyoming in October with no clue that two more lesions had formed and were ready to pop like a grape!. Perhaps had I known the lesions were present and the protocol was inadequate I would not of done that. In any event its over and I'm still banging the key board for answers!! Now the question remains are you part of the answer team, or the cover your ass team?

Fact is I did not know about he lesions in the Rhombus artery, I knew about the existing ones and was led to believe that they had stabilized and their was no new ones currently developing. I also did not know a lesion only takes a 1 1/2 to 2 years cradle to grave. This disease apparently is not a life time of accrual as I previously was indoctrinated to believe. It appears to me that some event triggers a reaction within the arteries and the buildup begins and arresting the build up is more difficult than thought
Hospital staff have informed me that they have seen 20 year olds in here with blockages so your quote]How to prevent this? Don’t shovel snow your not 20 years old!!![/quote] may not be the best advice for someone that old either.!! In fact maybe the whole population might want to go sit on a bucket in a field and do nothing fearing a lesion may rupture.

If you or any one on this site has any thing positive to add I will be the most attentive student in the room. I have (4) films taken of my heart since the initial event 9/27/2007 till 01/31/2011 and not one shows the blockages dissipating(dissolving, regressing). As stated the original blockages in the distal of the RCA seem to have been arrested(calcified maybe). The others in the LAD have not reveled any increased stenosis either.

As to date I have not seen one cath film from any body that depicts a regression of this disease. I have heard of the effectiveness of the other tests, however the real McCoy, 100% accurate, is the catherazation!! All others are lesser test's and are no guarantee of plaque in the arteries!!!!
Does any one Have a film of a plaque cap in regression over a time period? any time period? Please make it available (feeling better is not regression)
To date Dr Levey has come up with the best idea, intravenous VC which I would certainly entertain if there is a clinic near North Eastern PA. If anyone has knowledge of this, a few minutes to post will be appreciated. He was also honest
Quote:
I have to confess to being clueless, at least until some further inspiration hits my brain.
Take your time Doc I seem to have escaped Reaper again!

I was 20 minutes from the Hospital, when this occurred, I knew the symptoms, was in partial denial but got my ass down there any way. Had this not happened "shoveling snow" it could of happened in the middle of the Big Horn Mountains or any where for that matter. The outcome could of been somewhat less desirable!!

Don't fix blame on the victim, fix the blame on the perpetrator!! :shock:


Mon Feb 07, 2011 3:08 am
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Post Re: VC....... not exacty the results I was looking for!!!
I think that the advice was that it might not be something that Pauling Protocol might prevent 100%.

As far as my knowledge goes, Pauling protocol is used to bring cholesterol down and prevent formation of cholesterol deposits. It might also reverse existing deposits but this is not so effective as prevention AFAIK - it might work or not.

Now, if its water retention that is the problem (so you need to test this), you need to do something about kidneys. I guess it might be do to the renin-angiotensin system:

Quote:
Dr Laragh says that essential hypertension exists in two forms. The first form is low renin hypertension, occuring in about a third of hypertensives. This is called Volume (V) hypertension. The plasma rennin activity PRA test shows low renin (less than 0.65 ng/m/hr) and the "water pills" such as the thiazides and calcium channel blockers work best for this type of low renin hypertension.

The second type is high renin hypertension, occurring in the other two thirds of hypertensives, is labeled (R) for Renin Hypertension, and the PRA levels are greater than 0.65 ng/m/hr. This hypertension is due to the renin-angiotensin system, and the newer drugs such as the ACE Inhibitors (angiotensin converting enzyme inhibitors) and Beta Blockers work best for this type.

If dr Laragh is right, you are 2nd group and you need to check your renin levels. The type 2 is controled by Vitamin D. Do you take Vitamin D and how much if so ?


Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:06 am
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Post Re: VC....... not exacty the results I was looking for!!!
jknosplr wrote:
the question still remains why did the protocol fail, thats what I need to know.

Hi, jknospir. I am only a couple months into the PT, but I had a previous heart attack, so I'm also in the position of really needing to know.

I've been going through your old posts trying to get a sense of what else you have been doing besides PT but it's several pages and kind of time-consuming so forgive me if I'm asking things you've already posted about:

Until recently, you were not taking statins/beta blockers etc.?
Your diet is mainly what? Sort of Ornish? In particular do you eat much wheat and/or peanuts?


Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:43 am
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Post Re: VC....... not exacty the results I was looking for!!!
From my point of view, jknosplr, the fact that you are posting is the indicator that what you are doing has been successful. While you are conducting an experiment on yourself, it is hardly a controlled experiment.

Johnwen took the time to explain why snow shoveling is dangerous, especially for heart patients. It was informative and I learned something. Why you would react so negatively is another clue to why you may be suffering heart disease. If you want more scientific information, terrific. I am all for it. Ask you doctor why there aren't any studies.

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Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:09 pm
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Post Re: VC....... not exacty the results I was looking for!!!
ofonorow wrote:
Johnwen took the time to explain why snow shoveling is dangerous, especially for heart patients. It was informative and I learned something. Why you would react so negatively is another clue to why you may be suffering heart disease.

Really no need to be divisive. I usually enjoy John's contributions too, but this time it did feel for the first time patronizing for a bystander too (now doubled by having this negativity projected on it's recipient).

More Ease to you all.


Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:31 pm
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Post Re: VC....... not exacty the results I was looking for!!!
ofonorow wrote:
Johnwen took the time to explain why snow shoveling is dangerous, especially for heart patients. It was informative and I learned something.
The surge in numbers of heart attack victims after snowstorms is mainly due to couch potatoes who do not get regular exercise, subjecting themselves to sudden, unaccustomed, heavy exertion, without pacing themselves or warming up or knowing their limitations.

There was no reason to assume jknospir was in that category.

A blanket statement that heart patients shouldn't do strenuous exercise would be a surprise to both my cardiologist and the team managing my rehab, all of whom kick my ass if I am not exercising strenuously enough. The regular exercise component of cardiac rehabilitation programs is the main reason they are successful in preventing subsequent events.


Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:56 pm
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Post Re: VC....... not exacty the results I was looking for!!!
Back to the original question of why didn't the Pauling Therapy work? I personally am very interested w/ this as I am sure most of the newer members are. I want to know if for some reason, in certain situations, the PT can have a negative effect. I understand that we all want so hard to believe this works like a dream, but we must evaluate every negative effect to find the truth. The two things that stick out in my mind are the stents J had placed in his heart. Were these medicated? How much damage was created or how much damage existed before placement? Also liposomal was removed during treatment. Is it possible that in certain individuals a synergistic substrate like lecithin is needed to make vit c effective? I have a vested interest in this since I didn't have any chest pain before starting this therapy and am now consistently having a dull pain in my chest which feels like a pulled muscle(evaluating further in 2 days). I personally will be trying the liposomal form and am not close to throwing in the towel, but it behooves us all to analyze this scientifically with no preconceived notions. My feeling thus far is that it definitely helps repair joints and eliminate joint pain as I have personally experienced. With this in mind, most nutritional treatments that will help one part of the body will have positive benefits elsewhere. There may just be some caveats w/ certain groups. One final thought is what is J's carb intake? This can do a lot of damage even while taking the right supplements.


Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:01 pm
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Post Re: VC....... not exacty the results I was looking for!!!
jknosplr wrote:
Not currently taking any K2 or magnesium glycinate.

Fat free creamer half/half in my coffee no (trans fat) and minimal amounts of cheese, no butter, no nattokinase either.
I didn't know you could get a fat free half/half coffee creamer. Is that with that patented indegistible fat ingredient? The information quoted suggests a possible deficiency in vitamin A or one or more of the healthy fats.

The most fertile ground to find answers in this case would be in your diet. The closer to the SAD diet you were, the less surprised I would be about the rupture.

I would second the motion by Cobraman to get more details on the carbohydrate consumption the past several years - the approx. amounts and in what forms please and thank you. I wouldn't want to pry into your diet, but if you want theories we might need a bit more data to go on here.

Finally, we are all biochemically a bit different from one another so any protocol, even "full dose VC protocol (taken) religiously", should be read with the disclaimer - your mileage may vary.

good luck. let's hope we can learn more.


Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:51 pm
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Post Re: VC....... not exacty the results I was looking for!!!
Cobraman the stents were bare metal stents I requested, I knew about the problems with the medicated stents. As a matter of fact the hospitals to my knowledge will not use a medicated stent. In Europe they are experimenting with a biodegradable stent, but has not been approved by FDA here in USA.
As far as damage, cardiologist, did not see any damage when he dye checked the ventricle. In one month I am doing a follow up with a Nucular stress test to determine blood flow to that area. Card said if there was big damage I would have a tired feeling. As far as I know I haven't felt any different, except slightly frustrated!

As the pain you are experience, I have had bouts with the right side and under the right pectoral muscle. I was told that I may of rubbed the plural sac while weight training. I also have experienced a dull pain under both pectorals laterally across the chest. Its more of a ache, but its noticeable. Problem is after an event, you are so in tune with pain, it becomes over bearing and one will become consumed with it.

VanCanda I changed the diet back in 2007, to monostaurated fats, cut the red meat and shell fish, (Except Venison), , increased the lean white meat, and cold water fish. Dumped all the refined sugars and simple carbs, increased the complex carbs with greens and fiber. Funny thing is after all of the diet changing the totals cholesterol did not drop much until I began taking 2 gr niacin/day. Then total began to drop below 185 and HDL raised to about 55. Last blood test posted. Also the particle size of the LDL increased to type A or "large buoyant" i wrote a post about it. BP 100/75 yesterday, before event last week 115/75
Though I was on the right track, doc was on board so there was no conflicts with him, then wammo!!

Hope this helps
J


Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:30 am
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Post Re: VC....... not exacty the results I was looking for!!!
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I didn't know you could get a fat free half/half coffee creamer. Is that with that patented indegistible fat ingredient? The information quoted suggests a possible deficiency in vitamin A or one or more of the healthy fats.


No trans fats in my cave!


Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:43 am
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