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 Known Negative Drug-Vit C Interactions? 
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Vitamin C Master
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Post Re: Known Negative Drug-Vit C Interactions?
majkinetor wrote:
OK, I organised this info you posted a bit and added some additional info so its more clear. I don't know how drug information is accurate. ...

Magnesium
Prolonged use of 20+ grams of Vitamin C may induce slight Magnesium deficiency. Muscle cramps are an obvious sign of magnesium deficiency.


Majkinetor, is this your experience? - Or you gathered it from other sources?

Because since 1 year I actually experience regularly short but strong pain from cramps on stretching or unusual movements in all parts of my body - while taking that much vit C since 2 years.
It's often in my throat (and very, very rare in my legs), so I suspected my bad thyroid values - or, due to fluctuating serum potassium and rather low sodium and calcium, some electrolyte imbalance from adrenal problems.

I didn't really considered low magnesium the culprit, because during the same time I took about 700mg/day of elemental magnesium in bio-available forms, beside as much from my diet. Too bad, none of my docs asked agreed to make a RBC-magnesium test yet.

Probably will have to experiment with higher doses of magnesium, if this could be the case with me..


Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:15 am
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Vitamin C Expert
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Post Re: Known Negative Drug-Vit C Interactions?
Quote:
Majkinetor, is this your experience? - Or you gathered it from other sources?

Its from mgwater site. I documented it here.

When left bottom part of leg cramp happened to me I started taking Mg and it stopped. The scenario repeated one more time. I am, ofc, not sure if its Mg, because I read that such symptom can be even Ca deficiency (which I doubt so much as I eat diary products every day - no milk tho).

I now use 300-600mg Mg-Citrate depending on how I feel and what I eat (if I am nervous and under tension or when my head starts to hurt or I take lots of Vitamin D I take more, if I eat lots of veggies and feel calmed and relaxed I take less or none).

Quote:
It's often in my throat

What do you mean ? Do you have croups since you started using high C doses ? I do and my wife has. Much less after 6 months of megadosing. During the first 2 months of 15-20g of C we had constant croups which faded during third month. I thought its some kind of detox. Since I see this in more then 1 (wo)man I wonder what is this all about...

Quote:
so I suspected my bad thyroid values - or, due to fluctuating serum potassium and rather low sodium and calcium, some electrolyte imbalance from adrenal problems.

I don't use salt altho I take my C with sodium. I recently started supplementing 1mg of Iodine per day. There might be something with my thyroid and/or adrenals - I think I have mild metabolic syndrome and I had troubles waking up most of my life (which stopped with C megadose I think, but it was better before with 400mg of Piracetam before sleep); Since upon waking up stress hormones are higher to boost blood glucose for extra morning energy, I suspected adrenals might be in question (so I take C before sleep); I also suspect thyroid because I have low morning temperature, I am easy to get fat etc...). All without lab tests except basic panels.

Why did you think your throat pain was about thyroid or adrenals ?


Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:00 am
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Vitamin C Master
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Post Re: Known Negative Drug-Vit C Interactions?
Ok, a study with guinea pigs on a magnesium depleted diet. Don't consider this really relevant to my case, since I should get sufficient Mg from diet alone. And to extrapolate from this animal study to humans is a bit too speculative for my taste.

Never had croups and I started vit C 1 year before these cramps started. I thought it might have to do with thyroid because the cramps mostly occurred where the thyroid glands are. Also by starting to supplement iodine/iodide at the same time I considered it possibly a sign of iodine detox too.

Though this cramps might have to do with anything else - I definitely have hypo-thyroid problem because my TSH is to high and fT3/fT4 thyroid hormones both too low, additionally to low morning temperatures. And since I started testing, these parameters were even worsening (despite iodine supplementation), a trend which reversed only recently. Sadly, I haven't found any practitioners yet who would consider thyroid a serious problem (or knows about at all), since all my lab values are still within 'normal' lab ranges.

My adrenals are definitive a problem-area for me too, since I consider a job-related almost burn-out the tipping point which ignited a very fast worsening peripheral arterial disease (PAD). And since incorporating some supplement recommendation from this side, my energy levels have improved much. And adrenal's aldosterone is responsible for electrolyte balance.

But then all hormones can't be considered separate because they all interact, so my low serum DHEA, testosterone and high estrogen are a further piece to get the whole picture about the hormonal imbalance - ignited from too much stress hormones for a bid too long.


Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:59 am
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Vitamin C Expert
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Post Re: Known Negative Drug-Vit C Interactions?
Do you know that Mg, Idodide, K2 and D go together for hypothyroid ?

This is because:
- Since T3 and T4 are low you might need Iodine.
- Iodine plays a role in vitamin D metabolism and has a modulating effect on target organ response to calcitriol, the normal range of serum 25-OH-D. Vitamin D is a steroid and iodine affects receptor responsiveness to estrogens and other steroids. Also, Parathyroid activates Vitamin D and it also takes Iodide although I don't know for what is it used.
- Higher Vitamin D means higher Ca absorption. As we get old, body Ca regulation diminishes - Bil Sardi thinks this is one of the factors in aging - so Ca finishes in the soft tissues and blood vesicles.
- So you need extra Mg as you have extra Ca, which is good since both TSH and D are needed for Mg absorption.
- And you need K2 MQ4/MQ7 which is needed for proper Ca movement.


Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:23 pm
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Vitamin C Master
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Post Re: Known Negative Drug-Vit C Interactions?
majkinetor wrote:
Do you know that Mg, Idodide, K2 and D go together for hypothyroid ?

Not only for hypothyroidism but cardiovascular disease as well. And hypothyroid, as related hormonal imbalances, appear to me an important contributing factor to PAD in my case anyway.

So yes, I take and took all of those already before the cramps started. My 25(OH)D has been around 60ng/ml during this time too.


Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:05 pm
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Post Re: Known Negative Drug-Vit C Interactions?
Quote:
Ok, a study with guinea pigs on a magnesium depleted diet

This is the study I found while searching for the reference. I didn't see on mgwater site reference to why they think 20+g of C for prolonged periods might induce Mg deficiency.


Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:42 pm
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Post Re: Known Negative Drug-Vit C Interactions?
Quote:
This is the study I found


?

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Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath


Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:40 am
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Post Re: Known Negative Drug-Vit C Interactions?
I have experienced this (leg cramps) with an increase of ascorbic acid to over 20gm/day (from previous 15gm/day). Not sure it is Mg though. It is certainly an electrolyte imbalance, and they are all related. Klenner says to use Ca in IVC, to replace that drawn out. If you are taking C as NaAsc, that would make Na high, effectively lowering MG, Ca, K. Near as I can tell, the primary factor in cramps is water balance in cells, controlled by K. Simple lack of water is the obvious first problem, and that is consistent with cramping in hot weather, heated spaces in winter, and heavy work or athletics. Lack of chloride is second, since low Cl induces K excretion. Low Cl is also responsible for low HCl in the stomach, which decreases absorption of all the minerals, protein, and complex carbohydrates. Since I started habitually using "NoSalt" or KCL in addition to normal salt, it hasn't happened, but I am careful to use lots of water.
Folk remedy is pickle juice, which was intriguing enough to make me stay a bit short on water and KCl after heavy work in summer, inducing cramps. I got up and drank some Kosher Dill juice and the cramps were gone immediately!

FRM


Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:55 pm
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Vitamin C Master
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Post Re: Known Negative Drug-Vit C Interactions?
Thanks for the many suggestions.

My Na is rather low in serum and even lower in hair, K too is rather lowish in hair but fluctuates up and down beyond the reference range in serum. While Cl in serum and Mg in hair seem to remain midrange. Ca in serum only went out of deficiency with a 25(OH)D above 60 ng/ml. However, in hair Ca seems actually the most abundant of all minerals (at the upper limit of the reference range, while Boron isn't even detectable. Second in deficiency comes Molybdenum at the lower limit of the reference range).

I got about 700mg of elemental Mg from diet and as much again through supplementation during the last 2 year. However, about a week ago I made the trial and upped supplemented Mg to almost 1000mg/day now. And since 2-3 days this seems to reduce my cramps a bit. But it's too early for being certain about.


Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:08 am
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Post Re: Known Negative Drug-Vit C Interactions?
The radio interview listed below discusses the possible negative consequences of mega-dose vitamin C. The relevant info starts at around minute 70.

They say, for example, that if you are on certain kinds of chemotherapy, you should research fully the appropriate amount of vitamin C that is right for you. It could interfere with the efficacy of certain chemo drugs.

My partial transcription of this is coming soon.

The two doctors interviewed are Dr. Mark Obrenovich & Dr. Aliev Gjumrakch.

Super Human Radio show # 677 - Does Weightlifting Shorten Your Life? PLUS The Role Of Antioxidants In Health, Disease And Aging
http://www.superhumanradio.com/677-does-weightlifting-shorten-your-life-plus-the-role-of-antioxidants-in-health-disease-and-aging.html


Last edited by VanCanada on Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:27 pm
Vitamin C Master
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Post Re: Known Negative Drug-Vit C Interactions?
Can't hear Carl's "buy this - buy that" anymore, and will wait for your transcript.

Anyway, please double check what he suggests. In one entire show vitamin B6, pyridoxine, was repeatedly confused with B9, folic acid, by him and his 'supplement expert'. My comment about this mistake was deleted.

Many times I listened to him it was a waste of time.


Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:36 pm
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Post Re: Known Negative Drug-Vit C Interactions?
Let's not shoot the messenger (Carl Lanore) nor get sidetracked by wasting time discussing the personalities involved, shall we? Let's stick to the information provided and try to disprove it. This is how science is done; science doesn't automatically reach to put the blinders on. If Dr. Mark Obrenovich's experimental results fit observed reality better than Pauling's vitamin C theories, we could advance Health knowledge quite far for all of us.

If it weren't for people like Carl Lanore we wouldn't have great radio interviews such as those with Owen Fonorow or countless other free thinkers.

If the ads are unpleasant, just download the archived shows and skip the ads. And if you haven't tried those new low carb, high protein snack bars yet, you can get... ;)


Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:42 pm
Vitamin C Master
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Post Re: Known Negative Drug-Vit C Interactions?
I've nothing personally against Carl at all. I just said I wasted a lot of time listening to his radio, and that his and his guests informations need to be double checked. How is that unscientific?


Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:54 pm
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Post Vit C - One size does not fit all
Transcribed exact quotes (afaik) are in quote marks. Paraphrasing and summarizing is not. There's more good info in the interview before and after these; this is merely what I thought was most relevant to our topic of Vitamin C. Please correct the chemical terminology someone, for others' sake. Like Carl I'm too tired to fact check and can't afford to hire someone. :)

at minute77 second30:
vit C is key as an antioxidant. But...

"If someone is on chemotherapy and their chemotherapy mechanism of action is oxidative stress induced cytotoxicity then if you take too much vitamin C while having your chemo you could actually raise the therapeutic threshold of the dose... and require more of the chemotherapy to do its prospective effectiveness by taking too much vitamin C."

"One size does not fit all."

"It's absolutely an essential antioxidant that we should all take."

at minute 79:
In a healthy person it's usually fine.

But if you are elderly or diabetic you could have increased glycation due to the oxidation of vitamin C from its reduced form to its oxidized form (Dehydro ascorbic acid). Dehydro ascorbic acid can also break down into alpha 2,3-di keto glyuronic acid (sp?) and other reactive intermediates that behave JUST LIKE sugar.

Vitamin C in its reduced form can be very beneficial. But in its oxidized form it can be deleterious, such as when it causes some of the glycation in the protein of the eye's lens in diabetics.

-----------
OT
Off topic: Thank you pamojja. Friday shows have become really empty of content. Nice though how it's so predictable; makes it really easy to avoid. IMHO we need more people like Carl to speak truth to the FDA, comfort the afflicted, and afflict the comfortable.


Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:39 pm
Vitamin C Expert
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Post Re: Known Negative Drug-Vit C Interactions?
Above is stated that chemotherapy interference is not true.
About glycation, I didn't find any reference for it. Contrary, diabetic people should have more C then healthy people because of glucose/C competition.


Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:17 pm
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